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Old 04-10-2015, 05:11 AM   #106
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It may be blind loyalty, but I don't discount a lifetime of many positive accomplishments in her career based upon some things I've read on this thread that raise questions about the validity of the test. In spite of that, I still might consider the test if I read a little more positive things about it. In a time before Atopica or Apoquel, I was left with allergy serums and steroids which didn't help my little girl enough to my liking. I tried food elimination trials, but I failed to restrict her diet enough. I know I'm at fault for that. I even tried Chinese herbs, which I know aren't highly regarded here. My vet didn't advise blood testing for food allergies, so I did what I could to help Kiwi have a good quality of life. As long as we are not withholding necessary medical care, I believe each of us has the right to explore options for our pups, even if they are alternative ones. My first line of medical care has always been from conventional means, but I have tried alternative means when my vet has suggested them. Never for a second have I thought he has advised anything to benefit his practice, nor have I ever complained about the cost of treatment.
I agree...I do think there are lots of adjunct holistic / alternative methods of care that can do wonders.
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Old 04-10-2015, 06:59 AM   #107
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Buster has a Holistic/Western Vet that I use for regular appointments. We also go to a more Traditional Vet for xrays and emergencies. He also has a Specialist hospital that I use for second opinions and where his Orthopedic Surgeon is located. I am going to do the food elimination trial but was going to use the Nutriscan results to look for indicators of possible problematic foods that may cause triggers. There were some foods that were flagged in his blood tests that I would like to see if they are still triggers since I have not been feeding him these food. He showed an borderline intolerance to berries but they lumped all the berries in one group so I am not sure if it is all berries or maybe only strawberries. Blueberries and cranberries are added to a lot of foods that I have had to exclude. They also lumped in Salmon which he had a positive result to in one of the tests into the other fish mix test so I have had to exclude all fish products. I figured I would exclude all the food that appear as issues in both tests from my elimination trials so as not to add to Busters discomfort. Some people believe in the beneficial properties of antioxidants, omega 3's and 6's, and glucosamine and chondroitin and others debunk their effects. Buster did test positive for environmental issues as well but I wanted to see if I could get a handle on his food issues to better see if they were causing more of the issues. Since I stopped feeding him the main triggers from the blood test of Chicken, Duck, Pork, Turkey, Rabbit, Green Peas and Fish Mix he has greatly improved. Buster has no hot spots or major issues he just scratches and chews his paws occasionally. I tried a food with Millet in it which was not in the blood tests and he seemed to start up scratching again and the Nutriscan test does test for Millet. But it is allergy season so it might not be the Millet so why not use the test as a reference.
We do xrays, cat scans and ultrasound testing with the understanding that they may or may not be able to indicate an ongoing issue as a diagnostic tool and that is what I am planning on using the Nutriscan test as a reference.
Blood testing for food allergies is not reliable. I paid for these tests about 12 or 13 years ago and I was really mad at my vet when two tests showed inconsistent results. One day Daisy was "allergic" to sweet potatoes, and then upon retest was somehow miraculously not allergic anymore. Most people pay for one set of tests and never see how there are problems with it. I confronted my vet at the time and asked her to explain this apparent lack of consistency and she had no answer - just looked at me with embarrassment. I let it go and met the vet derm shortly thereafter and got my dog on a plan that's worked for 11 years now.

Since everyone keeps mentioning Apoquel, I had an interesting discussion about Apoquel w/ my vet derm just a couple of weeks ago when my dog was flaring. Obviously, this derm uses Apoquel all the time but wouldn't in my dog finding it harder on the liver than Atopica. There have been a couple of dogs who got really sick on Apoquel -- not reported in clinical trials, not widely seen, but discussed on listserves among vet derms. I found that very interesting. I learned also that Apoquel works within 4 hours so if it is a good match, it's great. It's also out of the dog's system in 18 hours if it doesn't work. It is a consideration for my dog as an "add on" if we get desperate but I would not want to use Apoquel in a yorkie unless I knew for sure the dog had a good liver.
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Old 04-10-2015, 08:52 AM   #108
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Maybe it's just me, but you almost seem angry with Carolyn for expressing her interest in this test...? I think she is merely trying to ask you to stop putting words in her mouth as in "She is trying to find a way to validate a test that has no science behind it that's her point." -- when that wasn't her point at all, as she stated. Only Carolyn really knows what point she is/was trying to make here.

If Carolyn finds the results of the test helpful, more power to her. I think she'll find the right way to help her kiddo and clearly cares enough to do just that. We all may take different paths to a destination, I think...?
I got a little too frustrated and for that I am sorry Carolyn.
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:23 AM   #109
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Blood testing for food allergies is not reliable. I paid for these tests about 12 or 13 years ago and I was really mad at my vet when two tests showed inconsistent results. One day Daisy was "allergic" to sweet potatoes, and then upon retest was somehow miraculously not allergic anymore. Most people pay for one set of tests and never see how there are problems with it. I confronted my vet at the time and asked her to explain this apparent lack of consistency and she had no answer - just looked at me with embarrassment. I let it go and met the vet derm shortly thereafter and got my dog on a plan that's worked for 11 years now.

Since everyone keeps mentioning Apoquel, I had an interesting discussion about Apoquel w/ my vet derm just a couple of weeks ago when my dog was flaring. Obviously, this derm uses Apoquel all the time but wouldn't in my dog finding it harder on the liver than Atopica. There have been a couple of dogs who got really sick on Apoquel -- not reported in clinical trials, not widely seen, but discussed on listserves among vet derms. I found that very interesting. I learned also that Apoquel works within 4 hours so if it is a good match, it's great. It's also out of the dog's system in 18 hours if it doesn't work. It is a consideration for my dog as an "add on" if we get desperate but I would not want to use Apoquel in a yorkie unless I knew for sure the dog had a good liver.
I had learned last years about the unreliability of the blood tests as well and the false positives and I had been thinking of comparing the saliva tests to the blood tests to see if the results were the same because some of the food that the blood tests said were borderline Buster did not seem to have issues eating. I think many great points were brought up by many members and I appreciate the discussion. I think it is wise for our members to be aware of the different points of view. I was basing some of my decisions on my experiences with cortisone and was doing Buster a disservice not being open to medications especially Atopica and realize that I do need to consult with a Vet Nutritionist to make sure Buster is getting a well balanced diet.
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:27 AM   #110
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I got a little too frustrated and for that I am sorry Carolyn.
Thank you Taylor I also contributed to the exchange and I am sorry. I think everyone has made some great points and it is good for people to be aware of both sides.
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Old 04-10-2015, 09:36 AM   #111
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I had learned last years about the unreliability of the blood tests as well and the false positives and I had been thinking of comparing the saliva tests to the blood tests to see if the results were the same because some of the food that the blood tests said were borderline Buster did not seem to have issues eating. I think many great points were brought up by many members and I appreciate the discussion. I think it is wise for our members to be aware of the different points of view. I was basing some of my decisions on my experiences with cortisone and was doing Buster a disservice not being open to medications especially Atopica and realize that I do need to consult with a Vet Nutritionist to make sure Buster is getting a well balanced diet.
Carolyn, Dr Remillard has a computer module for healthy dogs and the diets are $25. She has a novel protein option. Since Buster is healthy you might be able to hold on a consult and just email her for a suggestion on which of the healthy diets you might select. I know JadaBug did this with a turkey diet and it's worked out great. Her recipes for healthy pets now seem to use the Rayne supplement (it's chick pea based though). It's petdiets.com.

I don't think you've done a disservice to Buster at all. I totally understand the concerns with steroids and meds and I am very conservative myself. You've tried to help Buster and that's a lot more than many people would do! Allergies are hard.
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:34 AM   #112
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I got a little too frustrated and for that I am sorry Carolyn.
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Thank you Taylor I also contributed to the exchange and I am sorry. I think everyone has made some great points and it is good for people to be aware of both sides.
I love so many of the people on this forum.
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:35 AM   #113
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I had learned last years about the unreliability of the blood tests as well and the false positives and I had been thinking of comparing the saliva tests to the blood tests to see if the results were the same because some of the food that the blood tests said were borderline Buster did not seem to have issues eating. I think many great points were brought up by many members and I appreciate the discussion. I think it is wise for our members to be aware of the different points of view. I was basing some of my decisions on my experiences with cortisone and was doing Buster a disservice not being open to medications especially Atopica and realize that I do need to consult with a Vet Nutritionist to make sure Buster is getting a well balanced diet.
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Carolyn, Dr Remillard has a computer module for healthy dogs and the diets are $25. She has a novel protein option. Since Buster is healthy you might be able to hold on a consult and just email her for a suggestion on which of the healthy diets you might select. I know JadaBug did this with a turkey diet and it's worked out great. Her recipes for healthy pets now seem to use the Rayne supplement (it's chick pea based though). It's petdiets.com.

I don't think you've done a disservice to Buster at all. I totally understand the concerns with steroids and meds and I am very conservative myself. You've tried to help Buster and that's a lot more than many people would do! Allergies are hard.
Indeed! We all have to almost do hand stands to get some people to even consider a vet. Never mind going to the lengths the two of you and others do for their pups.
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Old 04-10-2015, 11:35 AM   #114
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Thank you all for your wealth of knowledge and support from all the members here even when I am resistant I am open and willing to learn. See you can teach an old dog new tricks.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:44 PM   #115
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Default Devastating review of the Nutriscan test by Skeptvet.

From Canine Nutrigenomics by Dr. Jean Dodds: Science as Windowdressing | The SkeptVet

Saliva Testing for Food Allergies (Nutriscan)
“NutriScan, offered exclusively by author WJD’s Hemolife testing laboratory, is the new gold standard for identifying the cause of food intolerances/sensitivities in dogs. NutriScan is not only the most scientifically accurate method; it is also the most convenient and cost-effective for you, as well as the least invasive and most comfortable for your dog (Dodds, 2014).”


“To date, Nutriscan represents the most scientifically advanced diagnostic phase of assessing functional nutrition for individual dogs. The presence (indicated by an intermediate, medium or strong reaction) or absence (indicated by a negative or weak reaction) of salivary antibodies in response to specific food extracts is an indication of the dog’s changes in gene expression when faced with these foods. NutriScan therefore depends upon the nutritional influences and factors that can alter gene expression (Fekete & Brown, 2007; Swanson, Schook & Fahey, 2003).”
A fair bit of effort in the book goes to promoting a test called Nutriscan, which uses saliva to identify dietary sensitivities in dogs. Unsurprisingly, Dr. Dodds’ company owns Nutriscan, and equally unsurprisingly the mainstream community of veterinary nutritionists and dermatologists do not accept the legitimacy of her test because she has not provided any controlled evidence to show it is an accurate and useful test. She does provide a lot of citations to support her claims for this method, but if one takes the trouble to investigate them, they do not actually turn out to be compelling evidence.


For example, the first citation is to her own article in the Journal of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association (JAHVMA) making the same claims. Apart from the fact that the AHVMA is the leading advocacy organization for veterinary pseudoscience and its journal publishes mostly unscientific ideas, it is not considered legitimate to support your opinions in a scientific publication but citing your own opinions printed elsewhere. But Dr. Dodds goes even further when, in the JAHVMA article she says, “Salivary testing for food sensitivity and intolerance in animals differs significantly from all other food allergen tests available for use in animals. It is highly reproducible and clinically relevant.” To support this, she cites two of her own presentations at AHVMA meetings and, you guesses it, her book Canine Nutrigenomics! A clearer example of the forms of science without the content would be harder to imagine.


The other citations above also fail to support the claims she attaches them to. Fekete and Brown (2007) is a review of the concept of nutrigenomics in veterinary medicine which does talk about the general principle that food compounds can affect gene expression and gives some examples, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of saliva testing for food intolerance. The second, Swanson et al. (2003) is a discussion of the potential of nutrigenomics and the importance of further research. Not only does the article say nothing to support Dr. Dodds’ claims about Nutriscan, it specifically contradicts her claims throughout the book that we already know which food have which kinds of genetic and health effects:
Genomics has begun to be applied to nutritional research, but issues specifically relevant to companion animals have not been elucidated thus far. The study of genomics and proteomics will be crucial in areas such as nutrient requirement determination, disease prevention and treatment, functional ingredient testing and others. Nutritional genomics and proteomics will definitely play a vital role in the future of pet foods.
In human medicine, where the research evidence is always more plentiful and better quality than in veterinary medicine, the gold standard for diagnosing food sensitivities is a dietary trial. Blood testing and skin testing are also used, though they are not as reliable. In veterinary medicine, the best evidence suggests that a dietary trial is the most reliable test, and blood and skin testing have not proven very reliable. Despite this, Dr. Dodds cherry picks a lot of in vitro and lab animal studies, along with opinion pieces from other alternative medicine doctors, to suggest that there is a sound scientific basis for using antibodies in saliva to detect food sensitivities. This might be a useful test, but the evidence does not exist to demonstrate this, and Dr. Dodds’ use of these citations is misleading.


The other main source of evidence Dr. Dodds uses to support her claims about Nutriscan are uncontrolled reports from animals she has tested. This is weak evidence that can suggest hypotheses for controlled testing but cannot prove or disprove the hypothesis. One veterinary dermatologist has performed her own uncontrolled test of Nutriscan, with Dr. Dodds’ knowledge and permission, and found it entirely unreliable. Twelve samples were submitted for testing in a blind manner, from dogs with known food sensitivities based on dietary testing, dogs with environmental allergies, dogs without allergic disease, and one sample of tap water. All samples including tap water, environmental allergy dogs, and normal dogs showed reactivity to beef, corn, milk and wheat. Some samples showed reactivity to soy. In some cases, these obviously false results would have led to recommendations against diets which actually helped these dogs. While this is not a formal, controlled study, it is at least as relevant as the unblended cases Dr. Dodds promotes as evidence Nutriscan works, and it casts serious doubt on this supposed new “gold-standard” allergy test.

Here are some resources illustrating the scientific consensus concerning food sensitivity testing, which is not consistent with Dr. Dodds’ claims: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

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