Low Titer Again?

[Ellie May]

Ellie just had titers for distemper and parvo.
She was low on distemper last year, so we boosted.
This year she is fine on parvo but low on distemper again.
It is right on the line 1:32, so the vet is fine not boosting but thinks we are going to have to do it every other year.

I am not happy with this at all.
Why does it keep going down?
Ideally we should titer 2 or 3 weeks after vaccination to see what her body does with it but that is pouring money into a test that I don't really care about.

I was talking about how titers are a thorn in my side and she agreed that Ellie could have cellular immunity with a titer of zero and be protected. The only way to know is through challenge study which of course isn't happening.

So anyway, why low two years in a row?
Even those who follow Dr. Dodd's protocol are told to titer and I don't think this should always be going down. Thoughts?

[YorkieMother]

My understanding is that titers are still not reliable enough. Unless somethings changed in the past year or so, I personally would not trust them.

I am waiting on the rabies challange to set new standards for rabies shots.
For the rest I hope they make titers more reliable.

JL

[KellyV]

If she's had multiple distemper vaccines and isn't mounting a response, I'd call her a "non-responder", hope she has cellular immunity and just not bother again.

Have you thought about contacting a veterinarian well versed with titers (ie. Dr. Ron Schultz or Dr. Jean Dodds themselves) to see what their recommendations are?

Interesting side note - Two of my three didn't respond to the distemper vaccine, yet their parvo titers were sky high. (They were vaccinated as puppies and their titers were checked when they were roughly a year old).

YorkieMother - Where did you hear that titers are unreliable?
The vaccine isn't a sure thing either (obviously, since Ellie and my kids have all been vaccinated and didn't respond well), at least with titers you have more of an idea how their system is responding instead of automatically assuming they're protected.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by KellyV

YorkieMother - Where did you hear that titers are unreliable?
The vaccine isn't a sure thing either (obviously, since Ellie and my kids have all been vaccinated and didn't respond well), at least with titers you have more of an idea how their system is responding instead of automatically assuming they're protected.

Any vet I have chatted to either holistic or not do not at this time think they are reliable enough. So at this time the count is 5.... and as I aware of this until someone can prove other wise and I open to learn I not trusting them.

That said we have a cat that reacts badly to one shot that they get the both dog and cat freindly shot, only it is not cat freindly at all so we will not be giving her any at her age the risk of the shot out wieghts the illness as she never goes out and she long in the tooth.

We have problems around kennel cough shot and it effectivness here but I not spending more money on something else that not going to to my understanding give me hard evidence.

JL

[Ellie May]

To me, titers are a wsate of time and money but that is the best that there is right now and it is a compromise. After the body fights the invader (in this case distemper vaccine), ther is no reason for the antibody level to stay high, so it drops and we see a low titer. But a titer of zero doesn't take into account cellular immunity and the dog could still be totally protected.

I understand why people wouldn't want to titer because of this but I want to be cooperative and not say, "No vaccines ever again" because although I would be happy with that, it is still in the beginnings of research.

I think what is happening is her body fights it off right away, so the antibody level drops. Now I am stuck though because I'm sure she is protected but even going by Dr. Dodd's protocol, revaccination is indicated if the titer is low. So what do you do with a dog whose titer won't stay high?

I'm sure the answer is just stop titering and stop vaccinating but that really isn't a fair compromise for the vet... How is she supposed to really know if Ellie is protected?

[LuvMySissy]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

To me, titers are a wsate of time and money but that is the best that there is right now and it is a compromise. After the body fights the invader (in this case distemper vaccine), ther is no reason for the antibody level to stay high, so it drops and we see a low titer. But a titer of zero doesn't take into account cellular immunity and the dog could still be totally protected.

I understand why people wouldn't want to titer because of this but I want to be cooperative and not say, "No vaccines ever again" because although I would be happy with that, it is still in the beginnings of research.

I think what is happening is her body fights it off right away, so the antibody level drops. Now I am stuck though because I'm sure she is protected but even going by Dr. Dodd's protocol, revaccination is indicated if the titer is low. So what do you do with a dog whose titer won't stay high?

I'm sure the answer is just stop titering and stop vaccinating but that really isn't a fair compromise for the vet... How is she supposed to really know if Ellie is protected?

According to Dr. Terafaj, titers are completely unreliable unless the exact same lab and lab person reads them every single time. She does not recommend re-vaccinating once the annual booster has been given. Research is showing lifetime immunity even with a low titer. She is the vet at Founder's Clinic in CA and has great information regarding this.

I do think that since you titered last year and then gave another booster, this is a fair compromise to the vet. And, unless Ellie is always outside and exposed to lots of other animals on a regular basis, her chances of picking up distemper are low to begin with. The bottom line is your call and the vet should respect that.

[Wylie's Mom]

I am conflicted right along with you Crystal. And see, technically - I should be getting Wylie titered right now - but after my recent post about titering (you and me posted a bit back and forth there too), I'm still wondering why should I? Because I'm not sure I'd vaccinate if the titer was on the cusp - and titers are unreliable anyway - and differ from lab to lab. So, do you just assume immunity based on what's currently been proven about DOI (we trust it in humans, why don't we in dogs?) - or titer and then wonder, as you are?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by LuvMySissy

According to Dr. Terafaj, titers are completely unreliable unless the exact same lab and lab person reads them every single time. She does not recommend re-vaccinating once the annual booster has been given. Research is showing lifetime immunity even with a low titer. She is the vet at Founder's Clinic in CA and has great information regarding this.

This pretty much captures where I lean.

[YorkieMother]

[QUOTE=LuvMySissy;2302233]According to Dr. Terafaj, titers are completely unreliable unless the exact same lab and lab person reads them every single time.
QUOTE]

Well well well look at that maybe I was not as far off base as I thought.

JL

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I am conflicted right along with you Crystal. And see, technically - I should be getting Wylie titered right now - but after my recent post about titering (you and me posted a bit back and forth there too), I'm still wondering why should I? Because I'm not sure I'd vaccinate if the titer was on the cusp - and titers are unreliable anyway - and differ from lab to lab. So, do you just assume immunity based on what's currently been proven about DOI (we trust it in humans, why don't we in dogs?) - or titer and then wonder, as you are?

The current research on DOI is something that I totally agree with but even with the challenge studies, they haven't gone much farther than 7 years. We can assume (and it is a fair assumption) that a dog is covered for life after being vaccination when the immune system is fully mature just like humans and MLV vaccines but it is sstill an assumption.

Titers are looking more and more like a waste of money to me, so I don't know what I am going to do next year.

Ellie's vet's concerne is that the research is still in the lab stage and it is too early to tell if the findings are correct. While they probably are, she doesn't want to take that kind of chance.

I ultimately do have the say so but I do value her opinion very much and maybe I am missing something.

I think I am stiill back at Dr. Dodds saying to titer and revaccinate if needed. She is an expert on this, so why is she saying to revaccinate for no reason?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I think I am stiill back at Dr. Dodds saying to titer and revaccinate if needed. She is an expert on this, so why is she saying to revaccinate for no reason?

Such a valid question. It's like Dr. Dodd is almost saying 2 things at once -- "yes, there is lifetime immunity - but yes, titer and revax if low anyway" -- where does that leave anyone? I guess with making their own choices, ugh.

Maybe you should email her....

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Such a valid question. It's like Dr. Dodd is almost saying 2 things at once -- "yes, there is lifetime immunity - but yes, titer and revax if low anyway" -- where does that leave anyone? I guess with making their own choices, ugh.

Maybe you should email her....

I'm glad you're seeing this. lol
There are obviously a lot of dogs like Ellie who have a low titer after a year and there is no reason to keep vaccinating. I guess some dogs' antibody levels stay up for life, so their titers are high but it isn't fair to those who don't.

I had emailed her about something else a long time ago and I don't want to keep bothering her. I would like the answer to this though. She will probably say to titer 3 weeks after vaccinating to see if it took and then don't think about it for a few years but then we go back to the we don't know if she is covered debate.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I had emailed her about something else a long time ago and I don't want to keep bothering her. I would like the answer to this though. She will probably say to titer 3 weeks after vaccinating to see if it took and then don't think about it for a few years but then we go back to the we don't know if she is covered debate.

I wonder if "KrisChristine" knows her personally and could find out hmmmm. Not that money is everything, but titers aren't cheap either - and telling folks to titer and titer and titer doesn't increase confidence in the fact that these vax DO provide lifetime (7yrs) immunity - it's creating more doubt, actually.

So my real question to her would be "what is causing us to doubt the lifetime/7-year immunity to the extent that titers are so avidly recommended" -- ya know?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I wonder if "KrisChristine" knows her personally and could find out hmmmm. Not that money is everything, but titers aren't cheap either - and telling folks to titer and titer and titer doesn't increase confidence in the fact that these vax DO provide lifetime (7yrs) immunity - it's creating more doubt, actually.

So my real question to her would be "what is causing us to doubt the lifetime/7-year immunity to the extent that titers are so avidly recommended" -- ya know?

YES! That's it. I think you just pinned down what the issue is. Why are titers so important yet we are supposed to believe these things last a lifetime? That might be one of Ellie's vet's issues with the whole thing too (don't know for sure). There are so many opinions even among people that don't think yearly vaccines are right. I think Dr. Schultz skips the titers on his own dogs and just vaccinates once or twice. Why is Dr. Dodds so adament about titers though? I hope she sees this and comes to answer.

And that is a great thought. Kris is a member here. She might be able to find out for us. I will PM and email her the link to this thread.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

And that is a great thought. Kris is a member here. She might be able to find out for us. I will PM and email her the link to this thread.

Oh, great!! I bet she has connections that could help bring some clarification. I hope so!