Low Titer Again?

[Kris Christine]

Greetings!

Crystal, thank you for contacting me about this thread, I'm happy to try to answer some of these questions. If you can't find what you're looking for in the material linked, I'll contact Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz for further information.

The links below with quotes (in maroon) from Dr. Ronald Schultz and Dr. W. Jean Dodds contain more information on this subject. I've taken out some salient quotes to answer the questions in this thread.

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines

An antibody titer no matter how low shows the animal has immunologic memory since memory effector B cells must be present to produce that antibody. Some dogs without antibody are protected from disease because they have T cell memory, that will provide cell mediated immunity (CMI). CMI will not protect from reinfection, but it will prevent disease. When an animal is antibody negative it may have T cell immunologic memory, but I generally consider a CDV antibody negative dog not to be protected, therefore, I recommend revaccination!.

36. Are serum antibody titres useful in determining vaccine immunity?

Yes - Especially for CDV, CPV-2 and CAV-1 in the dog, FPV in the cat and rabies virus in the cat and dog. Serum antibody titres are of limited or no value for the other vaccines. Assays for CMI are of little or no value for any of the vaccines for various technical and biological reasons.

Such factors are less of an issue for serological tests where it is much easier to control many of the variables. However, discrepant results are still obtained, depending on the quality assurance program of the given laboratory.

In the quote above, CDV stands for canine distemper, CPV-2 is parvo, and CAV-1 is adenovirus (hepatitis). The vaccines protecting against these 3 canine diseases are all modified live virus vaccines -- a human equivalent would be the modified (weakened) live polio vaccine.

There is an interesting article on veterinary vaccines which you can read in its entirety at the link below.

Are Our Pets Being Overvaccinated, by Melissa Burden, The Press
Are our pets being over-vaccinated?

(Dr. W. Jean Dodds) “But there is really no breed that is not at risk,” she said. The only vaccination needed, she asserts, is the rabies vaccine because it is legally required. Dogs’ and cats’ immune systems mature fully at 6 months old, she explained. If canine distemper, feline distemper and parvovirus vaccines are given after 6 months, a pet has immunity for the rest of its life.

(Dr. Robert Rogers) “Dogs and cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper, parvo, and feline leukemia every year,” Rogers said. “Once the initial series of puppy or kitten vaccinations and first annual vaccinations are completed, immunity…persists for life. Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to the potential risk of adverse reactions, he added.

I hope this has helped to answer some questions. It's interesting to draw the analogy with human vaccination -- has anyone had their physician or pediatrician suggest they have a titer to see if they are still protected against polio or measles, mumps, etc...? The 2003 American Animal Hospital Canine Vaccine Guidelines (Special Report ) state that: "There is no indication that the immune system of canine patients functions in any way different from the human immune system. "

Kris

[Ellie May]

Thanks so much Kris.

Inquiring minds need to know these things.

Now for more questions. Dr. Schultz says an antibody negative dog should be revaccinated for CDV. How low can the titer go before needing to do this? 1:0? 1:1? Then I am reading that Dr. Dodds says a dog vaccinated after the immune system is fully mature doesn't need revaccination but then why are we titering? Why recommend titers when it is thought that the DOI is lifelong? It just seems a bit confusing to say yes we should titer and vaccinate when the titers are low and then at the same time say that if they are vaccinated (MLV) after 6 months, they never need to be again. And then I am hearing that Dr. Schultz thinks these things last for life but says if there is a very low CDV titer, revaccinate. How can it go both ways?

What are we missing?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Kris Christine

(Dr. W. Jean Dodds) “But there is really no breed that is not at risk,” she said. "The only vaccination needed, she asserts, is the rabies vaccine because it is legally required. Dogs’ and cats’ immune systems mature fully at 6 months old, she explained. If canine distemper, feline distemper and parvovirus vaccines are given after 6 months, a pet has immunity for the rest of its life."

(Dr. Robert Rogers) “Dogs and cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper, parvo, and feline leukemia every year,” Rogers said. “Once the initial series of puppy or kitten vaccinations and first annual vaccinations are completed, immunity…persists for life. Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to the potential risk of adverse reactions, he added.

THANKS KRIS!!!

Okay, well - then from the quotes above, I'm thinking I won't titer going forward. I should be confident that me boys are protected, really. Yes?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

THANKS KRIS!!!

Okay, well - then from the quotes above, I'm thinking I won't titer going forward. I should be confident that me boys are protected, really. Yes?

I don't think so because Dr. Schultz says if he has a non-existent distemper titer, he revaccinates.

I am thinking Ellie's vet is absolutely correct. It is just too early for anyone to be able to say anything is 100% sure. If immunity is lifelong 100% of the time, why would Dr. Schultz revaccinate for a non-existent CDV antibody level?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I don't think so because Dr. Schultz says if he has a non-existent distemper titer, he revaccinates.

I am thinking Ellie's vet is absolutely correct. It is just too early for anyone to be able to say anything is 100% sure. If immunity is lifelong 100% of the time, why would Dr. Schultz revaccinate for a non-existent CDV antibody level?

Yes, now I see what you're saying. Then, their quotes above actually DON'T add up to me.

Then the vaccines, to my mind, may NOT provide reliable lifetime immunity if we're expected to titer and re-vax.

Really frustrating. Foot on both sides of the fence here!

[Kris Christine]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Thanks so much Kris.

Inquiring minds need to know these things. ;)

Now for more questions. Dr. Schultz says an antibody negative dog should be revaccinated for CDV. How low can the titer go before needing to do this? 1:0? 1:1? Then I am reading that Dr. Dodds says a dog vaccinated after the immune system is fully mature doesn't need revaccination but then why are we titering? Why recommend titers when it is thought that the DOI is lifelong? It just seems a bit confusing to say yes we should titer and vaccinate when the titers are low and then at the same time say that if they are vaccinated (MLV) after 6 months, they never need to be again.:confused: And then I am hearing that Dr. Schultz thinks these things last for life but says if there is a very low CDV titer, revaccinate. How can it go both ways?

What are we missing?

Ellie May,

Dr. Schultz's quote says that for canine distemper (CDV) if the dog is antibody negative, which would be 1:0, then he recommends revaccination. He does not recommend revaccination for a low titer count, only a negative one. I know from speaking with him that if there is no antibody titer count after a second vaccination, then he would consider the dog to be a non-responder to that particular vaccine and would see no point to revaccinating a third time. (Wolf hybrids are considered non-responders to the rabies vaccine.)

Ultimately, we all have to make decisions for our precious ones based on our own personal comfort levels, and titers can help us with those decisions. Let me give you an example from our family's experience. After his 1 year rabies booster, Butter suffered severe, life-threatening seizures for months. When he was due for his 3 year booster, our vet said he qualified for a medical exemption. Because rabies is endemic in our area (literally in our backyard), we chose to have a rabies titer done, and when his came back at 1:28, which we felt was too low despite the fact that the World Health Organization deems 1:5 as conferring immunity for humans, and we had him boostered.

It's interesting that we don't have our children titered after vaccination, and thus do not have the anxiety associated with making booster choices. Part of the reason for that is there is much more epidemiological vigilance with human vaccines than with veterinary vaccines.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Yes, now I see what you're saying. Then, their quotes above actually DON'T add up to me.

Then the vaccines, to my mind, may NOT provide reliable lifetime immunity if we're expected to titer and re-vax.

Really frustrating. Foot on both sides of the fence here!

Ditto.
It can't be both ways and as much as I hate vaccines, I hate distemper more.

I wonder if Dr. Schultz could explain why he says that they probably provide lifelong immunity but then he sees dogs that have been vaccinated with low titers and he thinks they need it again. Unless he is saying what he would do if he saw a low CDV but has never actually seen that? Maybe he has never seen a CDV go below 1:1?

Kris, we need you back!

[Ellie May]

What is a non-responder? Is it that there are no antibodies (but there is cellular immunity) or does it mean no immunity at all?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Kris Christine

Part of the reason for that is there is much more epidemiological vigilance with human vaccines than with veterinary vaccines.

This is APPALLING!

Then the REAL issue that we should also be fighting for like MAD RABID DOGS is more stringent, reliable manufacturing of canine vaccines.

I mean, where is the weakest link that is making them less reliable than human vaccines?

[Ellie May]

Well, since Dr. Schultz would revaccinate a dog with a titer of 1:0, I feel like I have a responsibility to Ellie to make sure hers doesn't go that low because that is the best information we have right now. If I had to make the decision right now, we would continue to titer.

[Kris Christine]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

What is a non-responder? Is it that there are no antibodies (but there is cellular immunity) or does it mean no immunity at all?

Crystal,

Sorry for not realizing that Ellie May is your little one! It is my understanding that a non-responder is an animal which produces no antibodies after vaccination -- i.e., they do not respond to vaccination.

Dr. Schultz told me that for his own dogs, if there is any antibody count after vaccination for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo, and he would never vaccinate his dogs again for those diseases. This is his quote from What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines "My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. I have used this vaccination program with modifications (CAV-2 replaced CAV-1 vaccines in 1970's and CPV-2 vaccines were first used in 1980) since 1974! I have never had one of our dogs develop CDV,CAV-1 or CPV-2 even though they have had exposure to many dogs, wildlife and to virulent CPV-2 virus. You may say that I have been lucky, but it is not luck that protects my dogs, it is immunologic memory."

Dr. Schultz has 7 dogs.

Kris

[LuvMySissy]

Originally Posted by Kris Christine

Crystal,

Sorry for not realizing that Ellie May is your little one! It is my understanding that a non-responder is an animal which produces no antibodies after vaccination -- i.e., they do not respond to vaccination.

Dr. Schultz told me that for his own dogs, if there is any antibody count after vaccination for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo, and he would never vaccinate his dogs again for those diseases. This is his quote from What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines "My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. I have used this vaccination program with modifications (CAV-2 replaced CAV-1 vaccines in 1970's and CPV-2 vaccines were first used in 1980) since 1974! I have never had one of our dogs develop CDV,CAV-1 or CPV-2 even though they have had exposure to many dogs, wildlife and to virulent CPV-2 virus. You may say that I have been lucky, but it is not luck that protects my dogs, it is immunologic memory."

Dr. Schultz has 7 dogs.

Kris

Wow - thank you for your clarification and your resources!!! They are very helpful to those of us choosing to not continue vaccinating.

[Kris Christine]

You're more than welcome, Jodie! I'm happy to share my vaccine information and am so grateful that the dog lovers here generously share their experiences and information on subjects like homecooked food and allergies that we're currently struggling with Butter over.

Kris

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by Kris Christine

Crystal,

Sorry for not realizing that Ellie May is your little one! It is my understanding that a non-responder is an animal which produces no antibodies after vaccination -- i.e., they do not respond to vaccination.

Dr. Schultz told me that for his own dogs, if there is any antibody count after vaccination for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo, and he would never vaccinate his dogs again for those diseases. This is his quote from What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines "My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. I have used this vaccination program with modifications (CAV-2 replaced CAV-1 vaccines in 1970's and CPV-2 vaccines were first used in 1980) since 1974! I have never had one of our dogs develop CDV,CAV-1 or CPV-2 even though they have had exposure to many dogs, wildlife and to virulent CPV-2 virus. You may say that I have been lucky, but it is not luck that protects my dogs, it is immunologic memory."

Dr. Schultz has 7 dogs.

Kris

Okay, thank you. This makes sense then. A vaccine is given and 1 titer is done 2 or 3 weeks later...not years down the road. Ellie's titer did go higher this year after CDV vaccination last year, so I'm sure she is protected then.

[YorkieMother]

All research with dogs is behind the eight ball not just yearly shots. "We" did not do the leg work as we live with them so we know them.
It is no different than working training or aggression or what is proper socialization... we think what we have been told or old wives tales or has been around is fact when the facts are not there.
We stick to old like glue as it been so ingrained it is not funny.

So we think dogs need shots all the time as it always been that way and no real research been done. till now and now we have to pull teeth to make changes.
We all think Dogs are little wolves so we must feed them and train them as such and no research till now was been done. Now we can not even in the face of facts let go what we learned as youngen and take on what is the research shows.

I see it daily in dog training Alpha rules and what is and should be gets slammed.
We are just understanding that the same metal health concerns we has humans have hit our dog and the same ways to help us help them.
That their little brains may not function far off ours and they feel far more then we think but dogs are still thought to feel no pain or have feelings or think unless we tell them too.

Dr Dodds is the same person many send blood tests too I think for thyroid concerns casuing agresion. Actually my next step.

"we" is in quotes as I do not me we are you and I but we as a group world we.

JL