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Old 02-15-2018, 03:40 PM   #91
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Not a big fan of there’s. I’m sorry you feel you killed her but I’m sure you didn’t. 2 weeks between surgeries and vaccines is fine. There is no treatmeant for the dog flu but they can die and develop secondary infections that can also kill them so if you take your pets out and live in the area effected it is a good idea to get the dog flu shot. With bordatella sure it can be treated but it can take over a month to treat and multiple antibiotics which also can negatively effect their immune systems too. It can also cause secondary infections that can again cause great distress and even death. Lyme isn’t really curable either and can also be deadly. My vet does not give shots when they are sick and that’s why they do a wellness check up before giving shots. I differently think sick or sensative dogs definitely need different precautions or a different vaccine plan I think it’s not very common. I am a huge fan of vaccinations and get all available for me so as long as they are safe for my puppies I will do the same. Callie can not afford to get sick with her compromised immune system so she needs to be protected and can’t have her siblings bring anything home to her either. I’m just not willing to risk their life’s when they can be vaccinated for things that could kill them. Vaccines are safe and necessary with dogs who do not have issues with them and are generally healthy. It’s very difficult to “break” an immune system. I saw some of the cases of not vaccinating in my vet assistant classes and it’s scary.
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You links say you can start vaccinating at 6-8 weeks old but that’s not true, science has shown that and vaccines before 8 weeks are useless. Also titers are useless as well.
Once again, we can agree to disagree. I doubt you even looked at the links. They are on the Mercola site but they reference Dr Shultz’s work and findings, which are well worth considering when wanting to know about vaccines. I also choose them because they are easier to understand than the more scientifically based articles available online.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:11 PM   #92
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Once again, we can agree to disagree. I doubt you even looked at the links. They are on the Mercola site but they reference Dr Shultz’s work and findings, which are well worth considering when wanting to know about vaccines. I also choose them because they are easier to understand than the more scientifically based articles available online.
Mercola isn't reputable, BUT I agree with you that Dr. Schultz has published some good *preliminary* work suggesting that a 7 year schedule for core vaccines may be sufficient. I'm sure that after his work has been replicated by other studies, the vaccination schedules will change. In the meantime, I'll abide by the current recommendations.

About antibody testing, here is a really good link to a page on the American Animal Hospital Association website: https://www.aaha.org/guidelines/cani...y_testing.aspx

According to AAHA, antibody testing is only valid for the following vaccinations:

canine distemper virus (CDV)
canine parvovirus (CPV)
canine adenovirus (CAV)

There are a lot of other good links about vaccination on the left side of the AAHA page that I linked to above.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:40 PM   #93
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Once again, we can agree to disagree. I doubt you even looked at the links. They are on the Mercola site but they reference Dr Shultz’s work and findings, which are well worth considering when wanting to know about vaccines. I also choose them because they are easier to understand than the more scientifically based articles available online.
I did look at the site that’s how I know they were saying to vaccinate at 6-8 weeks. I’m leery of articles where some of the facts are wrong because it makes me wonder how much more is false. Titers are unreliable and that is a fact! I won’t agree to just let things go that go against facts like the titers.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:18 PM   #94
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This is long article about titers but very informative Antibody Titer Testing as a Guide for Vaccination in Dogs and Cats | The SkeptVet
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:27 PM   #95
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Here is also a good article about vaccines autoimmune disease. Evidence Update: Vaccination and Autoimmune Disease | The SkeptVet
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:56 PM   #96
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I did look at the site that’s how I know they were saying to vaccinate at 6-8 weeks. I’m leery of articles where some of the facts are wrong because it makes me wonder how much more is false. Titers are unreliable and that is a fact! I won’t agree to just let things go that go against facts like the titers.
Sorry, LOL, I did catch that after I hit the ‘submit’ button. I thought that puppies lose their maternal antibodies according to how much colostrum they ingest so not all pups are equally protected in the same litter.

https://drjeandoddspethealthresource...6#.WoZrqMpOmhC

As for titers, more work needs to be done like standardizing the procedures, etc. I was only going to do it to see if my immune-challenged dog was capable of making any antibodies, not to skip vaccines or anything like that.

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This is long article about titers but very informative Antibody Titer Testing as a Guide for Vaccination in Dogs and Cats | The SkeptVet
As I said above, not using titers a guide for vaccination, but to see if my dog actually produced antibodies from vaccines, hence gleaning more info about the state of her health and to be able to use that info to make better decisions concerning her treatment.

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Here is also a good article about vaccines autoimmune disease. Evidence Update: Vaccination and Autoimmune Disease | The SkeptVet
Right... not enough evidence to prove or disprove associations. Too many variables, and reporting procedures need to be standardized.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:00 PM   #97
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Mercola isn't reputable, BUT I agree with you that Dr. Schultz has published some good *preliminary* work suggesting that a 7 year schedule for core vaccines may be sufficient. I'm sure that after his work has been replicated by other studies, the vaccination schedules will change. In the meantime, I'll abide by the current recommendations.

About antibody testing, here is a really good link to a page on the American Animal Hospital Association website: https://www.aaha.org/guidelines/cani...y_testing.aspx

According to AAHA, antibody testing is only valid for the following vaccinations:

canine distemper virus (CDV)
canine parvovirus (CPV)
canine adenovirus (CAV)

There are a lot of other good links about vaccination on the left side of the AAHA page that I linked to above.
Thanks... I’ve read some of that, but I’ll head back for more, later.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:04 PM   #98
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kjc--You sound like an intelligent, careful and caring, totally loving 'mom'/owner. I think we all feel responsible for anything untoward that happens with our little ones, but I hope you can forgive yourself for something that you absolutely did not do 'killing Tink.' We can't know what we don't know and it would seem you did your absolute best with your Tink at every turn. You took such wonderful care of you little (13 lbs!!) one. Thank you for sharing what you learned over time and I know that I will be copying and saving your post for reference. I think Tink had a wonderful life with you and probably a much longer one than she would have had with anyone else. I'm not expressing myself very well here, I just think you did everything possible for Tink and the last was simply out of your hands.
Thanks... K
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:12 AM   #99
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Here is a link to the vaccination project that Dr. Ronald Schultz is currently working on: https://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

They released an update on January 25, 2018:

Quote:
Rabies Challenge Fund Update - January 25, 2018

UPDATE from Dr. Ronald Schultz: "Results to date of The Rabies Challenge Fund research study showed protection from live rabies virus challenge five years after the dogs received 2 doses of rabies virus vaccine. Other data are still being collected and analyzed for the 6.5 and 7-year post-vaccination periods."
Those are promising results. It does take time to do the research, though, and this study is only being conducted on the rabies vaccination.
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:40 AM   #100
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Default Duration of immunity--Dr. Schultz

I'm attaching an image of a table documenting duration of immunity for various types of vaccine from a paper co-authored by Dr. Schultz in 2001. You really have to go by the challenge study results--that's where they try to infect the vaccinated dog with the disease. Those types of studies are the most accurate. The paper itself may be behind a paywall, but in case it's not, here is the link: http://www.vetsmall.theclinics.com/a...%2950603-8/pdf

The table also indicates whether or not the titer test correlates with immunity for the various types of vaccinations. At the time this paper was released, there were no challenge studies available for the rabies vaccine. Schultz's current research (linked in a previous post) shows that rabies vaccine is good for at least five years, and the study is still ongoing.

Not all titer tests are correlated with immunity based on challenge studies, so you have to be really careful in interpreting titer test results.

(Somehow, we've drifted way off topic from dog flu, but that's okay.)
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:44 AM   #101
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Default Sorry--here's the table.

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Originally Posted by pstinard View Post
I'm attaching an image of a table documenting duration of immunity for various types of vaccine from a paper co-authored by Dr. Schultz in 2001. You really have to go by the challenge study results--that's where they try to infect the vaccinated dog with the disease. Those types of studies are the most accurate. The paper itself may be behind a paywall, but in case it's not, here is the link: http://www.vetsmall.theclinics.com/a...%2950603-8/pdf

The table also indicates whether or not the titer test correlates with immunity for the various types of vaccinations. At the time this paper was released, there were no challenge studies available for the rabies vaccine. Schultz's current research (linked in a previous post) shows that rabies vaccine is good for at least five years, and the study is still ongoing.

Not all titer tests are correlated with immunity based on challenge studies, so you have to be really careful in interpreting titer test results.

(Somehow, we've drifted way off topic from dog flu, but that's okay.)
The table is attached to THIS post. (It was too large and had to be resized.)
Attached Thumbnails
Dog flu?-doi.png  
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Old 02-16-2018, 10:41 AM   #102
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Sorry, LOL, I did catch that after I hit the ‘submit’ button. I thought that puppies lose their maternal antibodies according to how much colostrum they ingest so not all pups are equally protected in the same litter.

https://drjeandoddspethealthresource...6#.WoZrqMpOmhC

As for titers, more work needs to be done like standardizing the procedures, etc. I was only going to do it to see if my immune-challenged dog was capable of making any antibodies, not to skip vaccines or anything like that.



As I said above, not using titers a guide for vaccination, but to see if my dog actually produced antibodies from vaccines, hence gleaning more info about the state of her health and to be able to use that info to make better decisions concerning her treatment.



Right... not enough evidence to prove or disprove associations. Too many variables, and reporting procedures need to be standardized.
Ok that is different, I though you meant in the place of vaccines which is why most people do them but I didn’t even think about that way. All the studies I have read say any shots before 8 weeks are useless and that a puppy vaccinated before then will need 4 sets of puppy shots instead of the 3.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:32 PM   #103
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In many (most?) parts of the US, you would be breaking the law if you did not get the core vaccines on the AVMA recommended schedule of 3 years for the core vaccines. You would risk having your dog taken and euthanized. Until the laws change, I wouldn't be recommending that people break them.
I believe the only vaccine actually required by law is rabies, technically speaking.

**not advocating skipping core vaccines, just saying that in most places your dog won't be euthanized for not being up to date on distemper, for example.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:44 PM   #104
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I believe the only vaccine actually required by law is rabies, technically speaking.

**not advocating skipping core vaccines, just saying that in most places your dog won't be euthanized for not being up to date on distemper, for example.
True about rabies being the only one required by law. I mentioned the core vaccines because they are frequently given on the same schedule. Plus in some areas, it's almost a death sentence if you don't vaccinate for distemper, because it's endemic in wildlife.
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Old 02-17-2018, 12:07 AM   #105
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The table is attached to THIS post. (It was too large and had to be resized.)
Excellent! This is so exciting, lol. Can’t wait for these studies to be completed so everyone can be on the same page about what is really absolutely necessary to maintain a healthy pet and to prevent any threat to human populations.

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I believe the only vaccine actually required by law is rabies, technically speaking.

**not advocating skipping core vaccines, just saying that in most places your dog won't be euthanized for not being up to date on distemper, for example.
With changing requirements, owners should check the info for their individual state, available online. Maryland does only require a Rabies vaccine and that it is kept current. It would be better to also check the current county legislation as that may differ from state law.

And I just checked again tonight, Rabies and distemper are required for dogs in Washington, DC. (By 4 months of age).
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