My poor 12 yr old Yorkie is being attacked!

[tiffygirl2003]

I am getting so frustrated that I can't fix this problem. I have 4 dogs, 2 female Yorkies, 1 male Yorkie and 1 Terrier mix. Generally speaking, they all get along well but lately the youngest female (17 mos old) has begun to attack my 12 year old female Yorkie (sometimes drawing blood). I am part of the problem because initially I didn't acknowledge the change is hierachy since the older girl had lost her position in the pack due to age and illness. I was disciplining the 17 month old when I should not have been. I was going against the new pack order. I acknowledge and accept these responsibilities but how do I correct what I have done and get order back into my pack?

I've been reading different articles about this issue and most of them state that I should not give as much attention to the lowest member of the pack. But that's difficult because I know she's getting old and needs me more now than she ever did. She's too frail to jump on or off of the couch or walk up the stairs so I tend to carry her more. She's never been a lap dog because she was a puppy mill resue who was not properly socialized and she has very little interest in human cuddling. The fights are never over food or toys. They seem to erupt over space, who's going to walk in front of who. It's always the 17 month old who starts the fight but she never attacks the other 2 dogs who dominate her in the pack order which is also why I believe that the issue is about pack order. The 12 yr old just wants to live out her remaining years in peace and quiet and doesn't seem to care where she fits within the pack.

I'm confused as to how I respect the pack order and help her as she ages. I see no evidence of fighting when I'm absent from home. Because I no longer trust myself with how I respond to the pack order, I have begun to crate the 12 yr old when I'm busy around the house and can't protect her.

Any suggestions or input would be appreciated!

[Buster Brown]

Sorry but in my case I would crate the youngster and not your older dog. The young pup is the one being inconsiderate of the pack dynamic and is trying to dominate the older one. She is trying to make herself the pack leader and she should be the one to be corrected and not your older dog. It is not up tp the youngster to determine pack heirarchy but that's my opinion. Let me see if I can get help from more knowledgeable members.

[Oddsock]

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Sorry but in my case I would crate the youngster and not your older dog. The young pup is the one being inconsiderate of the pack dynamic and is trying to dominate the older one. She is trying to make herself the pack leader and she should be the one to be corrected and not your older dog. It is not up tp the youngster to determine pack heirarchy but that's my opinion. Let me see if I can get help from more knowledgeable members.

Totally agree. I'd do the same.

[yorkiemini]

Ditto!

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Sorry but in my case I would crate the youngster and not your older dog. The young pup is the one being inconsiderate of the pack dynamic and is trying to dominate the older one. She is trying to make herself the pack leader and she should be the one to be corrected and not your older dog. It is not up tp the youngster to determine pack heirarchy but that's my opinion. Let me see if I can get help from more knowledgeable members.

I am NOT a trainer, but I agree with this....this is what I would do. Crate the youngster. Another word of caution, gleened from experience.....Do not ever leave your senior out with the group, alone, unsupervised. If the youngster takes a mind to dominate her, she will jump her and then when she is down, ALL of them will go at her and they will kill her.

I was told this same thing so I never left any of mine alone whith my senior matriarch. But I did let them run around on the patio area, while I sat in my lawn chair....they were out of reach by 15-20 feet. One day, one of the "challengers" jumped 14 year old Aija, and got her down....in the few seconds it took for my mind to make my feet move in her direction, she had 5 females on her.....I got to her and she was sooooooo terrified, she had a seizure......she was in shock and we rushed to the vet.....Amazingly, she had only one small bite wound, where one had latched onto her back leg and was trying to pull her across the patio....Aija suffered no major injuries but I thought I was going to have to go to the ER after we got her home....I was devastated that I had gotten lax and allowed that to happen to my devoted little old lady.....but STUPID is making the same mistake twice....I learned a huge lesson with that event! I never leave my dogs out with the seniors alone.....if they find one that is weak or sick or frail, the rest will jump on that one....pack mentality....and they will do their best to kill her.

[Buster Brown]

I remembered this poster going through a similar situation. Best wishes.
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/3731069-post1.html

[bjh]

I would not take any chances on the younger female hurting the older one. Sometimes females just won't get along no matter what you do. For me the ideal solution, if you have the room in your house, is to setup a x-pen and keep them separated. You can switch them out throughout the day so they both have a chance to run around.

[gemy]

First and foremost YOU are the Pack Leader. Your Senior deserves your care and intervention when necessary. Trust me I am going through the same thing right now, with my very dominant young 9mth female pup.

YorkieMom1 is right, never ever leave the senior alone in the pack!! Never. Crate them all, or crate your senior when you can't be there to supervise. It doesn't just happen with younger dogs against seniors it happens when the pack mentality clicks in for what-ever reason, and one is down on the ground..... Not Nice and needs Immediate intervention. Better still don't let it happen.

I truly don't care what you have read in books, or even what so called trainers might say. These dogs live in *our* homes and we are the Pack Leader period full stop.

Beyond that my seniors deserve a life of security, peace and tranquility, and trust me that is what I WILL Provide for them.

Now for your 18mth old gal. Here is what I would do. Start Nothing in Life is Free, She gets hand fed by you, kibble piece by kibble piece, earning each piece of food. Xpen the others while you do this, or crate them what-ever works. She earns her food by obeying simple obedience commands. Come sit stay down etc.

Walk your gal alone on short 6ft lead. Work obedience commands into your walk. or if you can't walk her for what-ever reason, out in the backyard you go. Work obedience commands, reward, some fun play, chase ball what-ever.

Never let her jump up into your lap un-invited. If she does immediately put her down to the floor. Teach her to come up when invited only.

No sleeping in bed with Moms - unless she has earned the priviledge. In fact to make a point I would allow only the Senior gal to sleep in the bed and or nap on my lap...

Teach her to Stay, and you climb the stairs first, or enter or exit rooms first.

All this will re-inforce to this young gal just who is boss in your home. And that is YOU.

I obviously feel pretty strongly about this. With young, equally matched dogs, I might let them sort out pack order, below me, but I firmly believe every human is the Pack Leader, not a dog.

Let us know how it goes, when you start to institute some changes in your home.

[yorkiemini]

Gemy, you are right on!

I firmly believe in obedience training for all dogs. Sets the tone for who is in charge and makes the dog safe by of obeying commands when it is really important.

There is a fair amount of literature out there that wants to debunk the pack mentality in the pet setting. I'm nor sure about that, but I do know that who the leader is in the pet home makes a major difference in the group dynamic.

Our society tends to protect the elderly. - they have given us so much

[lynzy420]

I don't know all the views but I do recall a member here who came home to a dead yorkie from the same situation you are describing, they all ended up attacking the pup.


Personally if you don't get professional intervention now that blood has been drawn I would consider rehoming the 17mo old., It is not fair to the senior pup to live in fear like this, and the younger one is learning a real bad habit by it continuing, you may end up with a violent pup... This is my opinion.

[Verbena]

I think Yorkiemom grave you some sage advice.

[tiffygirl2003]

I am so appreciative for all of the responses and advise. I appreciate the time that you spend writing a response and trying to help me. Sometimes I get overwhelmed when there's a problem and I seek input because I want to do what's right for my pack. Sometimes I also learn that what I was doing wasn't best even though the advise came highly recommended. However, it does sound like what I was doing before my internet search was closer to correct. Prior to researching the issue, I was discipling the baby girl first by separation and then by crating. To me this made sense. But then I read about acknowledging the natural pack order by placing my old girl at the bottom because of her age and illness (I'm always at the top) and got confused even more. My initial thought was that the puppy needed to respect the order and not try to dominate her way into a position that didn't belong to her (I was right about that part).

Buster Brown: Thank you! I plan to read the post that you linked. I'm so glad your senior wasn't severly injured in the pack attack. So far the attacks have only been initiated by the baby girl but I am sure taking note of what you said. It only takes a quick second and the poor senior can be severely injured or even killed.

Yorkiemom1: I had started crating my senior for her protection but only when I was at home. I understand the pack attack mentality, so from now on she's crated when I'm not at home. I had begun to get relaxed and that seemed to be when the attacks occurred. Thank you!

BJH: Here's a weird note, I sometimes dog sit my baby girl's sister and they get along so well. No fights, no growling, just lots of play time and fun. I still think the puppy has learned to disrespect my senior and I've got to get back in control of all of them.

Gemy: You've given me a lot to look into. Defininitely will be crating my senior for protection but will also start re-training baby girl so that she is more respectful. You are so correct, I need to do some more disciplining and training her because I've allowed her to behave inappropriately because she was the baby (bad mommy). I'm also going to start allowing them to sleep with me only after they have earned the priviledge. My older 2 have great behavior and rarely require correction from mom so they'll be easy to work with. The puppy will quickly notice that she is the only one crated, lol! Security, Peace and transquility is what she's entitled to and it's what she'll get!

Gemy & Yorkiemom1: I now go outside for all group potty breaks and play time or I let my senior out by herself so that she has the yard all to herself. She deserves peace & quiet.

[Buster Brown]

Good luck with the retraining you really did have the right plan, best wishes.

[Yorkiemom1]

I always reminded my senior that she was #1 in my pecking order, under me....newcomers had to adjust under that. My senior who had been with me, lovingly and loyally and lovingly devoted to me for 10 years before I brought the others into the family, was always made to feel SHE was still my matriarch.....she deserved the peace and quiet and preferential treatment I gave her in her senior years. I did like you....I took her out by herself, just she and I....she did very wel with Crickette and Haliee, they all loved and respected each other, and I am sure they would chat about me loosing my mind bringing all these "nasty dogs" into the house!.......I let her mix and mingle with the puppies that were 12-14 weeks old, waiting to go to their new homes....she always loved babies and was gentle and tolerant with the "kids"....and they were young enough, they were not challenging anyone about anything! And she spent all her time with me, either in my lap, in my bedroom, sleeping with me, or crated at the foot of my bed. I closed off my kitchen and she stayed in there with me while I cooked or cleaned up the kitchen. It was a bit of an adjustment for us all, but she was worth it.....she left me at 16 years of age, as always, in my arms, where I kept whispering to her she was always my very favorite......

[gemy]

Judi that brought tears to my eyes "whispering to her she was always my very favourite"

Gosh there is just no dang way, and well actually I would have it no other way, that our hearts won't break in pieces, each time we lose one of our beloved.

I remember so very clearly with Zoey, spending most of the night awake with her, stroking her, doing Reiki, and that final morning a surprise sunny and warm day, with the pack around me on our blanket. She laid there, while I stroked her poor cancer ridden body. And we had our last pack time together, before I took her into the vet! Aches my heart and always will.