AKC Yorkie Male- Blue and Gold- will be tiny.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I'm not sure I agree that this is such a serious condition at this time. Many open fonts do close over time and, with no other health issues present, I would consider the dog healthy.

I do not agree with placing a pup with an open font. If the OP wishes to place him, I think he should be held until the plates have fused and then he should be vet checked for an overall health clearance. It is irresponsible to place a pup with a known health condition. If the font does not close over time, I agree that he should be placed in a qualified home for no fee.

I think some here know my feelings on breeding these small girls. The open font is just one of the more common issues with these tiny babies. It should also be said that breeding a very small sire, even to a dam of good size, can cause this condition to be expressed and I don't see this mentioned often enough.

Isn't that common practice with responsible breeders? To keep a puppy with an open fontanel longer to see if if closes? And since this puppy only weighs 24 ounces, don't responsible breeders also keep puppies until they are at least two pounds?

Twelve weeks is just the minimum age to go to their new home. I know Maltese show breeders who kept the tinier ones until they are 5-6 months old.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Ladymom

Isn't that common practice with responsible breeders? To keep a puppy with an open fontanel longer to see if if closes? And since this puppy only weighs 24 ounces, don't responsible breeders also keep puppies until they are at least two pounds?

Twelve weeks is just the minimum age to go to their new home. I know Maltese show breeders who kept the tinier ones until they are 5-6 months old.

I would hope it's common practice. My only disagreement is of characterizing this pup as a special needs pup at this age (12 weeks) due to an open fontanel. And yes, I think any tiny should be held for longer, even without health issues present.

I certainly wouldn't place any pup with an open fontanel but I think that this one has some time to see if it closes. He should be held by the breeder to give it time to close. I personally would worry myself to death if I placed such a pup....free or otherwise.

I agree with you about 12 weeks being the minimum age to place a pup. I often hold mine longer...sometimes much longer.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I would hope it's common practice. My only disagreement is of characterizing this pup as a special needs pup at this age (12 weeks) due to an open fontanel. And yes, I think any tiny should be held for longer, even without health issues present.

I certainly wouldn't place any pup with an open fontanel but I think that this one has some time to see if it closes. He should be held by the breeder to give it time to close. I personally would worry myself to death if I placed such a pup....free or otherwise.

I agree with you about 12 weeks being the minimum age to place a pup. I often hold mine longer...sometimes much longer.

That's just the point. The pup should be held onto longer. As in all tinies the risk is greater that medical problems may arise. Why take chances in selling heartache. A breeder that has the pup's welfare at heart would consider that before money.

This particular breeder had been posting how this pup had wormed it's way into her heart and he would be staying with her, then Wham, she's got him up for sale, never mentioning his condition. Did you view the video.....this little pup does not look like he's 100%.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

That's just the point. The pup should be held onto longer. As in all tinies the risk is greater that medical problems may arise. Why take chances in selling heartache. A breeder that has the pup's welfare at heart would consider that before money.

This particular breeder had been posting how this pup had wormed it's way into her heart and he would be staying with her, then Wham, she's got him up for sale, never mentioning his condition. Did you view the video.....this little pup does not look like he's 100%.

Exactly...and that's the point I'm making...that the pup should be held. I did click on the link with the ad for the pup and saw his picture but no, didn't see any video. If there are other problems, they could be addressed but what I saw was this boy being characterized as a special needs baby on the basis of the open font.

I did qualify my comments by saying that barring other health issues, that an open font alone in a 12 week old is not enough to consider him as a special needs baby. Certainly he should be held until it closes and I would have an issue with a breeder attempting to place such a baby, disclosure or not.

Since this is an issue (among many others) common in tinies, would you care to comment on my statement about using very small studs? Whether you are using a very small dam, stud or both, you are in some way breeding for tinies and these issues are likely to crop up. I will be honest and say that I have a 3 pound male that I used 1 time with a 5 pound girl. Out of a litter of 3, I got one very tiny one from that litter and, though she was healthy, I held onto her until she was 8 months old before I attempted to find a home for her. I just didn't trust her being out of my hands until then and I can tell you that I will not ever use a tiny stud again.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Exactly...and that's the point I'm making...that the pup should be held. I did click on the link with the ad for the pup and saw his picture but no, didn't see any video. If there are other problems, they could be addressed but what I saw was this boy being characterized as a special needs baby on the basis of the open font.

I did qualify my comments by saying that barring other health issues, that an open font alone in a 12 week old is not enough to consider him as a special needs baby. Certainly he should be held until it closes and I would have an issue with a breeder attempting to place such a baby, disclosure or not.

Since this is an issue (among many others) common in tinies, would you care to comment on my statement about using very small studs? Whether you are using a very small dam, stud or both, you are in some way breeding for tinies and these issues are likely to crop up. I will be honest and say that I have a 3 pound male that I used 1 time with a 5 pound girl. Out of a litter of 3, I got one very tiny one from that litter and, though she was healthy, I held onto her until she was 8 months old before I attempted to find a home for her. I just didn't trust her being out of my hands until then and I can tell you that I will not ever use a tiny stud again.

I understand your qualification statement. But, in my opinion and in the words of my mentor and my; open fontanels are special needs yorkies. I've never produced one yet, my mentor has, but she has placed them and never sold them. She's also held on to tinies for a long while and then placed. Always informing the approved families of the underlying issues that might exist. Now on occassion she's placed these puppies and they've had a growth spurt and ended up being 5-6 pound dogs.....Her words have always been that; she would rather err on the side of caution. I have a wee one here, that at 8 months has finally reached 4 pounds 4 ounces. I held onto her because she wasn't a fast grower, she's checked and deemed healthy. Now I'm holding onto her because I'm praying she'll make the size....she has everything else, structure, attitude and coat.....

Breeding a smaller male to a larger female is a common misnomer, it's all predicated on lines and genetics. But, intentionally breeding tinies to beget tinies is ticking bomb.

[Woogie Man]

I suppose, then, that we have differing opinions. I have had one pup that was diagnosed with an open font the day I took the litter in for tails and dew claws. My vet was not concerned with this....saying the concern is if it doesn't close. On the pups next checkup, it had indeed closed.

Here is a little something about open fonts, though it is Chihuahuas being discussed.

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" There is an opening in the skull of chihuahuas and many other toy breed of dogs that seems to be the center of much discussion. While there are many openings in the skull, this one in particular seems to draw much more attention. This opening is centered in the forehead and can be very tiny to very large. The edges can be round and smooth or jagged. We are going to discuss this opening in regard to chihuahuas but this can also apply to other breeds.
In the chihuahua, this opening is called a "molera". While not all chihuahuas are born with this opening, it was once considered to be a "mark of being purebred". But there are many purebred and very well bred chihuahuas that have little or no molera. While this discussion about this opening could go on and on for a good little while, we think that if you are researching this subject it is because you have some concerns about the repercussions of an animal that has this condition. Unfortunately some Veterinarians have the misconception that a large open entrance in the forehead is also an indication of a more serious condition called "hydrocephalus". In layman's terms this means "water head" or water on the brain. You can also hear them use the term "open fontanel". Actually, the fontanel is openings in the skull located about where you would look for eyebrows if this was a human child. Toy puppies and chihuahua puppies are all born with "open fontanels" that quickly close up and calcify to make a strong skull. Open fontanels allow the skull to give during birth to some degree so the puppy can pass through the birth canal. The skull also has openings at the point of ear placement and also the rear quadroon of the skull (the part behind the ears down to the base of the skull) has a crease that is open at birth from the molera down the back of the head to the spinal column. Most all of these openings should be closed on healthy puppies by the time they are 3 to 4 months old. Visible signs of a problem are usually found with enlargement (a swelling appearance) of the dome of the skull usually accompanied by the eyes appearing to rotate outward showing excess whites of the eyes at the point where the eyes join the nose or muzzle. Upon feeling the open points of the skull, you will find the fontanels are widening and the crack from the molera down the back of the skull is open. An x-ray is NOT a good indication of hydrocephalus. Instead it is common place to use either "ultra-sound" or an "MRI" for definite determination."

From this link... molera
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and this...

"In "Diseases of the Brain" 1989, Green & Braund stated that many clinically normal toy breeds may have open fontanels without associated hydrocephalus.

Drs. Walker and Rivers, Veterinarians at the University of Minnesota concluded that there did not appear to be any relationship between the presence or size of a fontanel and the condition of hydrocephalus.

Dr. Alexander de Lahunta of Cornell University in New York, one of the top neurologists in this country, stated that it would be wrong to conclude that any opening is abnormal.

While it would be impossible to list all the medical documentation here on this page, these few included here are perfectly clear; the presence of a molera does not mean the Chihuahua has a medical problem"

from this link... Q: chihuahua: open fontanel - Pet Care Experts Answer!

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[capt_noonie]

This is a very informative thread. Thank you mardelin and woogie, I learned a lot.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by capt_noonie

This is a very informative thread. Thank you mardelin and woogie, I learned a lot.

I agree. I had glanced at this thread when it was first put up, and just now read it in its entirety. I learned a lot about open fontanels.

[lrichardsonrnc]

To say I was "uneducated" about breeding and Yorkies in general, is an understatement. About a year ago, I got the Yorkie "bug" and found a breeder of Biewers on the internet. She is VERY slick. Her website is super slick. She was so nice to me before the deposit was paid. It was downhill all the way from there. I had to beg for pictures and updates. I began to have troubleing thoughts that I was getting in over my head. I was about to question my own paranoia but kept reading YT like a fanatic. I was so worried about this breeders attitude toward me and being in such a hurry to ship the puppy when I had a panic attack that at 12 weeks the puppy weighed 19 onces. She was ready and willing to SHIP this tiny from Florida to Texas! You read correctly. She said she would charge me for every day she kept the puppy after 12 weeks. I poured my heart out to a complete stranger on YT based on the fact that her post always reflected such down to earth, common sense. She advised me to "run, don't walk" even if it meant losing the deposit. I took the advise and I will forever and ever be so grateful to this person for saving my tush, my heart and probably my savings.
Thank you, my queen, LadyMom

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by lrichardsonrnc

To say I was "uneducated" about breeding and Yorkies in general, is an understatement. About a year ago, I got the Yorkie "bug" and found a breeder of Biewers on the internet. She is VERY slick. Her website is super slick. She was so nice to me before the deposit was paid. It was downhill all the way from there. I had to beg for pictures and updates. I began to have troubleing thoughts that I was getting in over my head. I was about to question my own paranoia but kept reading YT like a fanatic. I was so worried about this breeders attitude toward me and being in such a hurry to ship the puppy when I had a panic attack that at 12 weeks the puppy weighed 19 onces. She was ready and willing to SHIP this tiny from Florida to Texas! You read correctly. She said she would charge me for every day she kept the puppy after 12 weeks. I poured my heart out to a complete stranger on YT based on the fact that her post always reflected such down to earth, common sense. She advised me to "run, don't walk" even if it meant losing the deposit. I took the advise and I will forever and ever be so grateful to this person for saving my tush, my heart and probably my savings.
Thank you, my queen, LadyMom

Posts such as yours are truely needed for educating those that are on a journey to purchase a new puppy.

I'm glad LadyMom intervined and was your voice of reason. I repeat over and over again, You buy your breeder first, your puppy 2nd. If you don't feel comfortable with the breeder, run the other way. Another one I'm constantly repeating is if a breeder is willing to sell you a puppy with breeding rights without knowing you on a personal level.....run the other way.

Did you ever get your puppy? Now I know that's a very lazy question, but I just don't want to go back over your posts to find out.

Thank you for posting your story.

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by lrichardsonrnc

To say I was "uneducated" about breeding and Yorkies in general, is an understatement. About a year ago, I got the Yorkie "bug" and found a breeder of Biewers on the internet. She is VERY slick. Her website is super slick. She was so nice to me before the deposit was paid. It was downhill all the way from there. I had to beg for pictures and updates. I began to have troubleing thoughts that I was getting in over my head. I was about to question my own paranoia but kept reading YT like a fanatic. I was so worried about this breeders attitude toward me and being in such a hurry to ship the puppy when I had a panic attack that at 12 weeks the puppy weighed 19 onces. She was ready and willing to SHIP this tiny from Florida to Texas! You read correctly. She said she would charge me for every day she kept the puppy after 12 weeks. I poured my heart out to a complete stranger on YT based on the fact that her post always reflected such down to earth, common sense. She advised me to "run, don't walk" even if it meant losing the deposit. I took the advise and I will forever and ever be so grateful to this person for saving my tush, my heart and probably my savings.
Thank you, my queen, LadyMom

Ah, thanks!

You need to share the happy ending to your story!

[lrichardsonrnc]

I,ve read too many of your post Mardelin.......even Ray Charles can see your not lazy. You keep "butting in" every time you read where yet another "clueless" individual is swirling around the drain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you! I have had my "Priscilla" since Dec. '09 She will be 1 year old on July 11. Healthy, smart, beautiful, loving, curious, not potty trained but she will be getting her Good Citizen Certification next Wed. She is well mannered, great social skills,loves her brother (malt) Presley. She is 4 and a half lbs. of energy, doesn't bark without provocation. A dream to groom and crazy fun to dress. She is the cherry on my banana split.
And your right about another thing.....very telling when a breeder gives full breeding rights to a 19 oz. puppy. Never called my Vet, Groomer or prison warden. Didn't care if I had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. Didn't ask if my other dog was a pit bull or a gorilla. Her "I don't give a poop" meter went all the way to the top.....and yet was quite passionate about me forking over the 3K.
Don't ever stop underestimating how little the average person knows about the health and well being of helpless animals. But by becoming motivated to learn, there's hope for even me. You inspire me.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by lrichardsonrnc

I,ve read too many of your post Mardelin.......even Ray Charles can see your not lazy. You keep "butting in" every time you read where yet another "clueless" individual is swirling around the drain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you! I have had my "Priscilla" since Dec. '09 She will be 1 year old on July 11. Healthy, smart, beautiful, loving, curious, not potty trained but she will be getting her Good Citizen Certification next Wed. She is well mannered, great social skills,loves her brother (malt) Presley. She is 4 and a half lbs. of energy, doesn't bark without provocation. A dream to groom and crazy fun to dress. She is the cherry on my banana split.
And your right about another thing.....very telling when a breeder gives full breeding rights to a 19 oz. puppy. Never called my Vet, Groomer or prison warden. Didn't care if I had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. Didn't ask if my other dog was a pit bull or a gorilla. Her "I don't give a poop" meter went all the way to the top.....and yet was quite passionate about me forking over the 3K.
Don't ever stop underestimating how little the average person knows about the health and well being of helpless animals. But by becoming motivated to learn, there's hope for even me. You inspire me.

Lol, you have a great sense of humor and your posts are very informative. I'm so glad Ladymom pointed you in the right direction; she's helped so many here including me. Glad you found a reputable breeder, it's so worth it!

[capt_noonie]

Originally Posted by lrichardsonrnc

I,ve read too many of your post Mardelin.......even Ray Charles can see your not lazy. You keep "butting in" every time you read where yet another "clueless" individual is swirling around the drain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you! I have had my "Priscilla" since Dec. '09 She will be 1 year old on July 11. Healthy, smart, beautiful, loving, curious, not potty trained but she will be getting her Good Citizen Certification next Wed. She is well mannered, great social skills,loves her brother (malt) Presley. She is 4 and a half lbs. of energy, doesn't bark without provocation. A dream to groom and crazy fun to dress. She is the cherry on my banana split.
And your right about another thing.....very telling when a breeder gives full breeding rights to a 19 oz. puppy. Never called my Vet, Groomer or prison warden. Didn't care if I had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. Didn't ask if my other dog was a pit bull or a gorilla. Her "I don't give a poop" meter went all the way to the top.....and yet was quite passionate about me forking over the 3K.
Don't ever stop underestimating how little the average person knows about the health and well being of helpless animals. But by becoming motivated to learn, there's hope for even me. You inspire me.

You are living, breathing proof that the passionate ones here DO do good, and are not rude, snobby, or elitist. I enjoyed reading your posts and I am so happy you now have a happy HEALTHY baby.

Also, way to go Ladymom!

[Reese1]

Here is the poor little 18 month old female who is only 3 1/2lbs that had the little puppy being sold:

AKC Yorkshire Terrier Female - 18 months old - very small. in Emmett, Michigan

No price is mentioned. I hope this isn't based on whether someone wants her for breeding or not. Sad.