Small & beautiful AKC female in PA

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by ferragame

You're welcome.

Of note is that this code of ethics is posted all over the internet. Do a google search and have fun keeping your officers busy writing letters to the thousands of websites that post this information.

Again, if they write us a letter and show its copyrighted information, we'll remove any mention of the YTCA in the page.

In the future, I suggest we continue this through PMs as I do not believe this information is relevant to the contents of this thread. Thank you and have a good day.

But, did send you a message on this very subject a couple of years back....you chose not to answer.

[ferragame]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

It strikes me as kind of odd to be talking about adhering to a code of ethics while breeding a too small female. I had a gorgeous girl that I placed back in '08 due to her small size. She was 3 1/2 pounds at 10 months. When I took her to my vet for a wellness check before going to her new home, he made a comment about her being such a nice looking dog and that she was perfect for breeding. I just laughed and said no, she's much too small for breeding and she's going to a great pet home. I trust my vet in all things veterinary, but the breeding decisions and responsibilities are mine.

Like we said, we don't breed her unless she is approximately 4 lbs. which we believe to be ethical.

We would never sell a puppy that was under 3 lbs fully grown (lucky for us we haven't had one that small). We know many breeders that breed specifically for small (sub-4 lbs) Yorkies. They then charge more due to their small size. We believe this to be unethical. We breed to the AKC standard of 4 to 7 lbs. If we had a puppy that would be under 3 lbs when mature, we would rather place it in a good pet home with someone we trusted for free than sell it.

Most breeders we know of charge by size, we do not believe that to be ethical but many do. We charge the same for our puppies regardless of size. We've had many happy customers and will continue to breed happy and healthy puppies.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by ferragame

Like we said, we don't breed her unless she is approximately 4 lbs. which we believe to be ethical.

Simply put, that's where you and I would disagree. 5 pounds is the minimum for me and then more than just weight must be considered. I won't knowingly put my girls at any additional risk and I consider breeding small females knowingly putting your dog at risk.

The 3 1/2 pound girl I mentioned earlier came from a dam that is just over 5 pounds and a 6 pound sire. Tinies do happen but I can't see breeding for them. Though I'm not yet showing my dogs, I do breed with that goal in mind. Breeding FOR tinies runs counter to that goal as you will never get a show/breed prospect that way. All you're producing is cute tiny pups. And then there's the obvious problem of finding appropriate homes for these smaller babies. They are prone to more health issues and, even when healthy, are very delicate and most homes are not appropriate for or qualified to care for these babies. These are not 'beginner' Yorkies.

Also, since the YTCA c.o.e. was mentioned, I believe you will find somewhere on their site a specific mention of the minimum size for a breeding female.

[ferragame]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Simply put, that's where you and I would disagree. 5 pounds is the minimum for me and then more than just weight must be considered. I won't knowingly put my girls at any additional risk and I consider breeding small females knowingly putting your dog at risk.

The 3 1/2 pound girl I mentioned earlier came from a dam that is just over 5 pounds and a 6 pound sire. Tinies do happen but I can't see breeding for them. Though I'm not yet showing my dogs, I do breed with that goal in mind. Breeding FOR tinies runs counter to that goal as you will never get a show/breed prospect that way. All you're producing is cute tiny pups. And then there's the obvious problem of finding appropriate homes for these smaller babies. They are prone to more health issues and, even when healthy, are very delicate and most homes are not appropriate for or qualified to care for these babies. These are not 'beginner' Yorkies.

Also, since the YTCA c.o.e. was mentioned, I believe you will find somewhere on their site a specific mention of the minimum size for a breeding female.

We do show our Yorkies. Our Max - Kullen's grandfather - AKC Name: Napatree whistlin blues, has 41 champions in his 3 generation pedigree and his genetic line includes the Durrer and Orlane-Elan lines.

We do not breed for tinies. The reason we actually kept Cora was because we expected her to be over 5 lbs and we were going to use her to breed. She stopped growning at 4 lbs. Her puppies are some of the most beautiful Yorkies one will find. All of our other breeding girls are over 6 lbs.

Thanks for your comment

[Nikis2]

I tell you what I have been an AKC yorkie breeder for over 28+ years and I would never in my life breed females that are that tiny. I cannot even imagine allowing a stud to damge her like that let alone repeatly breeding this tiny female. Where are all your show dogs and Ribbons at. Do you and your family need money that bad to breed an animal that tiny? How can she have enough vitamins and nutrients in her body to produce a puppy that is going to be healthy many years from now. I am shocked and sad that you would even come on this website with nothing but yorkie lovers on here and advertise such cruelty to your own baby girl what health guarantee to you give? The baby is almost as big as the mother! ETHICS NOT!!!!

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by ferragame

We do show our Yorkies. Our Max - Kullen's grandfather - AKC Name: Napatree whistlin blues, has 41 champions in his 3 generation pedigree and his genetic line includes the Durrer and Orlane-Elan lines.

We do not breed for tinies. The reason we actually kept Cora was because we expected her to be over 5 lbs and we were going to use her to breed. She stopped growning at 4 lbs. Her puppies are some of the most beautiful Yorkies one will find. All of our other breeding girls are over 6 lbs.

Thanks for your comment

I don't see how you can have a dog with 41 champions in a 3 gen. pedigree as there can only be a maximum of 14 dogs in the first 3 generations . My Bonnie has 46 champions in her 6 generation pedigree (54 if you count the ones that appear more than once separately). Maybe you meant something other than what you stated?

I can sympathize with wanting to breed an exceptionally beautiful girl. I was confronted with that same situation with my Heidi. I purchased her with intentions of breeding her. She is an exquisite little darling and was charting to be of breeding size. She, however, stopped growing and only reached a little over 3 pounds. I REALLY wanted to breed her but did the responsible thing and had her spayed. She now reigns as our House Princess.

The following is what the YTCA says about breeding size for females.
************************************************** **
"All breeders may occasionally have an unusually small Yorkie (hopefully healthy),
though no responsible breeder breeds for this trait. Many breeders prefer a
general weight range of 4-7 pounds believing that size retains desired Toy
qualities while maintaining optimum health. The Yorkie Standard states weight
"must not exceed seven pounds" and as a prospective pet owner you should
realize that even at 7 pounds, the Yorkie is still a small dog. (Females weighing
less than 5 pounds are considered by most breeders to be unsuitable for breeding.)"

(Taken from the FAQ section..."An important message about "Teacup" Yorkies)
************************************************** **

While there is no guarantee against complications during pregnancy and whelping with a girl of any size, breeding under-size females certainly places an additional risk on the Dam (and pups) and I would hope you would re-consider your breeding practice as it pertains to your 3.7 pound girl.

[yorkielover4lif]

she precious

[YorkieShadow]

She is ADORABLE.

[ferragame]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I don't see how you can have a dog with 41 champions in a 3 gen. pedigree as there can only be a maximum of 14 dogs in the first 3 generations . My Bonnie has 46 champions in her 6 generation pedigree (54 if you count the ones that appear more than once separately). Maybe you meant something other than what you stated?

I can sympathize with wanting to breed an exceptionally beautiful girl. I was confronted with that same situation with my Heidi. I purchased her with intentions of breeding her. She is an exquisite little darling and was charting to be of breeding size. She, however, stopped growing and only reached a little over 3 pounds. I REALLY wanted to breed her but did the responsible thing and had her spayed. She now reigns as our House Princess.

The following is what the YTCA says about breeding size for females.
************************************************** **
"All breeders may occasionally have an unusually small Yorkie (hopefully healthy),
though no responsible breeder breeds for this trait. Many breeders prefer a
general weight range of 4-7 pounds believing that size retains desired Toy
qualities while maintaining optimum health. The Yorkie Standard states weight
"must not exceed seven pounds" and as a prospective pet owner you should
realize that even at 7 pounds, the Yorkie is still a small dog. (Females weighing
less than 5 pounds are considered by most breeders to be unsuitable for breeding.)"

(Taken from the FAQ section..."An important message about "Teacup" Yorkies)
************************************************** **

While there is no guarantee against complications during pregnancy and whelping with a girl of any size, breeding under-size females certainly places an additional risk on the Dam (and pups) and I would hope you would re-consider your breeding practice as it pertains to your 3.7 pound girl.

There are 41 champions in Max's three generation pedigree if you count the offspring and breeding pair that produce the offspring. I don't have the pedigree in front of me at the moment but I believe there are a total of approximately 51 dogs listed in the pedigree.

We do think this may be Cora's last litter. She has only had one other litter and we may spay her after this as her size is a bit on the small size.

[Too many dogs]

Originally Posted by ferragame

There are 41 champions in Max's three generation pedigree if you count the offspring and breeding pair that produce the offspring. I don't have the pedigree in front of me at the moment but I believe there are a total of approximately 51 dogs listed in the pedigree.

We do think this may be Cora's last litter. She has only had one other litter and we may spay her after this as her size is a bit on the small size.

Your babies are beautiful. Good luck and BTW, YTCA members DO sell on websites. One very well known show person/YTCA member is selling puppies on PuppyFind/Kentucky right now unless her ads were removed last night. Has been for quite a while now. There is also another ad in the Indiania/ PuppyFind section from a YTCA member and these members are both in good standing. Good luck selling your precious girl.

[Limelitediva]

Originally Posted by ferragame

You are the one looking in the For Sale sale section. You have over 9000 posts so I assume you are spend a lot of time on Yorkietalk. We're very happy to know that you know hundreds of breeders and how and where they advertise....good for you.

We follow the YTCA code of ethics but you are correct, we are not a member. This is for various reasons including some of the holier than thou members we've met (present company excluded of course). However the code of ethics is a very good business model for a quality breeder to follow. We are firm believers in this code of ethics (regardless if its the YTCA or the tim-buck-too-club-of-America code) so therefore we follow it and post it so prospective buyers know what we believe in as Yorkshire Terrier Breeders.

We typically do not advertise as demand usually exceeds the number of puppies we have. We have one remaining puppy and so therefore decided to advertise on Yorkietalk. We've had good luck with quite a few buyers from this site and have met many nice people.

Since we've never met you, we do not want to disparage you personally however, we do not appreciate your remarks. As to your last paragraph, we are not a banner advertisement (paid advertisement), this section is a free advertisement section. As you may or may not be aware or, there is a paid "for sale" section that many breeders use. we guess they are also not one of the "HUNDREDS OF YORKIE BREEDERS I (you) KNOW" either.

Finally, we believe your comments to be unfounded and somewhat of a personal attack. Your comment that "Also good reputable breeders will not ship puppies to people they've never met." regarding us is unfounded. If you truly examined our website, on our FAQ page, we specifically state we will not ship a puppy by itself. We will only hand deliver a puppy. If it requires a flight, we require the buyer to cover the cost of the airfare so we may deliver the puppy and to allow us to meet them. As this would be a highly unlikely scenario, we don't expect to (ever) ship a puppy.

Good luck in your future and thank you for taking the time to visit our humble website.

Sincerely;
Ferragame's Yorkshire Terriers

Nice!

[jrsygal37]

Originally Posted by ferragame

We agree that it can be dangerous. That is one reason we wait until Cora is at least 4 lbs before we breed her.

Also my wife (Eileen) is a vet tech and her practice owner (he has Yorkies as well) will make an emergency trip at anytime to the hospital for us if needed. He has done so before when our Doberman needed an emergency visit at 2 AM. Its very comforting to know you can count on someone in an emergency situation....especially a vet.

Four pounds is still too small and if you know it could be dangerous then why bother breeding under the recomended weight. A vet tech should know this information as well as the vet that makes emergency visits when needed. Also, could be wrong but if you follow the code of ethics, I don't believe they reccomend or ok breeding four pound females.