bloodlines

[kjcmsw]

Remember I don't show and am the first to admit my ignorance in this area so bear with my questions please...
and it might very well be this is a breeder type question (I'm trying to learn more).
When a dog's pedigree says CH (champion) - that is supposed good, correct - insomuch as to win a champion title the dog should have been "to standard"? However, are there various levels of "champion" some worthy of mention, some just may have been a 'champion' of a local dog show? Now I'm not saying the latter isn't good, as I don't know. The winners must be to standard, correct? And the more "to standard" dogs in the dog's line the greater chance of the pup being "to standard"?
So if a pup's pedigree has 41 champions in it (5 generations) including a world champion would that pup have a greater likely of being a quality dog insomuch as being to "standard"? Yes, I know champion doesn't necessarily equate to good health and a bad dog can pop up, I'm just wondering if a pedigree of such would be a good indicator that the dog should be to standard of its breed and someone would more likely than not be getting a quality pup.
Thanks for your patience in clearing this up for me as well as forgiving my ignorance.

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Remember I don't show and am the first to admit my ignorance in this area so bear with my questions please...
and it might very well be this is a breeder type question (I'm trying to learn more).
When a dog's pedigree says CH (champion) - that is supposed good, correct - insomuch as to win a champion title the dog should have been "to standard"? However, are there various levels of "champion" some worthy of mention, some just may have been a 'champion' of a local dog show? Now I'm not saying the latter isn't good, as I don't know. The winners must be to standard, correct? And the more "to standard" dogs in the dog's line the greater chance of the pup being "to standard"?
So if a pup's pedigree has 41 champions in it (5 generations) including a world champion would that pup have a greater likely of being a quality dog insomuch as being to "standard"? Yes, I know champion doesn't necessarily equate to good health and a bad dog can pop up, I'm just wondering if a pedigree of such would be a good indicator that the dog should be to standard of its breed and someone would more likely than not be getting a quality pup.
Thanks for your patience in clearing this up for me as well as forgiving my ignorance.

Oh I should probably add the lines are Durrer's, Lake Buena Vista, Nik Nak, Aero's, Parkside, Moonlight, et al. As I suppose the lines also make the difference??

[Sunnie]

Kendra, I am pretty new to showing but you are correct in that just because a dog has a CH in front of it's name does not equate to being a quality dog. There ARE many levels of championships, but they do not get a CH in front of their name until they have won MANY shows. They need to have won 15 points and of those points 2 of the shows have to have been "majors" meaning they competed again SEVERAL dogs and not just 1 or 2. when they compete in a smaller show that is not a major, they usually only win 1 point for a win. so it takes many small wins and at least 2 major wins (by different judges) before they become a champion. and because so many health issues are NOT noticable when judging them, they still could be a not so good representation of the breed. But to me.. my logic would be if my dog had a serious problem, then I would not want to show them because you are only fooling yourself. how much pride would one get out of showing a dog to championsjhip that they knew had a genetic defect? so yes, having the CH in front of the name of many dogs in the pedigree certainly gives you a better feeling about the chances of it being a better quality dog, it isn't always the case. and you also want those CH lines to be in the first 2 generations.. the further back they are, the less significant they are. remember that even someone breeding proven CH to CH thruout their entire lines does not mean they will produce all champion quality dogs. they are lucky if they get one CH out of a litter. the longer they have been breeding and the better the breeder is at knowing which dogs will contribute the best qualities to their program, the more likely they will have healthy quality puppies.

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by Sunnie

Kendra, I am pretty new to showing but you are correct in that just because a dog has a CH in front of it's name does not equate to being a quality dog. There ARE many levels of championships, but they do not get a CH in front of their name until they have won MANY shows. They need to have won 15 points and of those points 2 of the shows have to have been "majors" meaning they competed again SEVERAL dogs and not just 1 or 2. when they compete in a smaller show that is not a major, they usually only win 1 point for a win. so it takes many small wins and at least 2 major wins (by different judges) before they become a champion. and because so many health issues are NOT noticable when judging them, they still could be a not so good representation of the breed. But to me.. my logic would be if my dog had a serious problem, then I would not want to show them because you are only fooling yourself. how much pride would one get out of showing a dog to championsjhip that they knew had a genetic defect? so yes, having the CH in front of the name of many dogs in the pedigree certainly gives you a better feeling about the chances of it being a better quality dog, it isn't always the case. and you also want those CH lines to be in the first 2 generations.. the further back they are, the less significant they are. remember that even someone breeding proven CH to CH thruout their entire lines does not mean they will produce all champion quality dogs. they are lucky if they get one CH out of a litter. the longer they have been breeding and the better the breeder is at knowing which dogs will contribute the best qualities to their program, the more likely they will have healthy quality puppies.

thanks for clearing some of that up for me. I appreciate it. So champion dam, all 4 grand parents champions, all great grandparents champions, 10 of the great grand parents and the rest in the 5th generation, then the pups probably have a greater likelihood of being to standard/of quality?
The breeder lines (previously mentioned are good???)
Thanks again.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Remember I don't show and am the first to admit my ignorance in this area so bear with my questions please...
and it might very well be this is a breeder type question (I'm trying to learn more).
When a dog's pedigree says CH (champion) - that is supposed good, correct - insomuch as to win a champion title the dog should have been "to standard"? However, are there various levels of "champion" some worthy of mention, some just may have been a 'champion' of a local dog show? Now I'm not saying the latter isn't good, as I don't know. The winners must be to standard, correct? And the more "to standard" dogs in the dog's line the greater chance of the pup being "to standard"?
So if a pup's pedigree has 41 champions in it (5 generations) including a world champion would that pup have a greater likely of being a quality dog insomuch as being to "standard"? Yes, I know champion doesn't necessarily equate to good health and a bad dog can pop up, I'm just wondering if a pedigree of such would be a good indicator that the dog should be to standard of its breed and someone would more likely than not be getting a quality pup.
Thanks for your patience in clearing this up for me as well as forgiving my ignorance.

Well CH is a title used by many countries and many registries. So for example rigair Sir Razzle Dazzle is an AM and Canadian Ch. First you want to make sure that the dog is championed under a reputable registry.

To learn what goes into making a CH for the US go to www.akc.org they have educational articles on this topic.
Briefly a dog must earn 15 pts and two majors under different judges to earn his CH. To earn pts a dog/bitch must earn winners dogs/bitch and defeat other dogs in that process. If you are the only Yorkie entered in a competition that day there is no-one to beat, and therefor you earn no pts.

A dog that earns it's championship should have no disqualifying faults, and preferably no major faults. It is almost impossible for a dog to win all his/her ch pts at one local dog show. Just not enough competition to secure that title.

How-ever at a National specialty which has hundreds of dogs entered it is possible over a 3 or 4 day wkend to earn the CH. this is because the more dogs you beat, the more pts you earn, to a maximum of 5pts in one competition day.

Also if you are looking at CH's from different countries, then you better know the standards of each country for your breed. For example in England the standard calls for a scissor bite on the Yorkie, and in US and Canada level or scissor is acceptable. That is only one of the differences.

If you study the standards in depth, you can see that the way they are written gives some latitude on what may actually be the "look" of the adult dog.

As most standards for the Yorkie only give a weight standard and not a height standard; then you could have a CH that is 7"-10" tall weighing in at around 6-7 lbs.

So what are you looking to purchase? What is the look, the type of Yorkie you want?

But back to the parents of the pup. Are they Ch's? If not why not? Important to know this answer, and to meet the parents of course.

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by gemy

Well CH is a title used by many countries and many registries. So for example rigair Sir Razzle Dazzle is an AM and Canadian Ch. First you want to make sure that the dog is championed under a reputable registry.

To learn what goes into making a CH for the US go to www.akc.org they have educational articles on this topic.
Briefly a dog must earn 15 pts and two majors under different judges to earn his CH. To earn pts a dog/bitch must earn winners dogs/bitch and defeat other dogs in that process. If you are the only Yorkie entered in a competition that day there is no-one to beat, and therefor you earn no pts.

A dog that earns it's championship should have no disqualifying faults, and preferably no major faults. It is almost impossible for a dog to win all his/her ch pts at one local dog show. Just not enough competition to secure that title.

How-ever at a National specialty which has hundreds of dogs entered it is possible over a 3 or 4 day wkend to earn the CH. this is because the more dogs you beat, the more pts you earn, to a maximum of 5pts in one competition day.

Also if you are looking at CH's from different countries, then you better know the standards of each country for your breed. For example in England the standard calls for a scissor bite on the Yorkie, and in US and Canada level or scissor is acceptable. That is only one of the differences.

If you study the standards in depth, you can see that the way they are written gives some latitude on what may actually be the "look" of the adult dog.

As most standards for the Yorkie only give a weight standard and not a height standard; then you could have a CH that is 7"-10" tall weighing in at around 6-7 lbs.

So what are you looking to purchase? What is the look, the type of Yorkie you want?

But back to the parents of the pup. Are they Ch's? If not why not? Important to know this answer, and to meet the parents of course.

Good point about the other countries. Something for me to investigate further. the championships all seem to be American and Canadian except for there are 3 Brazilian, one Poland, and then that world champion - (don't know what the standard for that would be - Nik Nak's He's a Keeper - worth anything???). Like I said, champion dam, all 4 grand parents, all great grand parents, 10 of the great great, the remaining CH are in the last/5th generation showing.
the lines are Durrer's, Moonlight, Aero, Lake Buena Vista, Parkside, et al.
I looked up the names online and they are all good looking Yorkies, all with their own fairly impressive pedigrees (except...to my untrained eye, I wasn't that impressed with the Durrer's "look", but again my eye is worthless in such an evaluation)
Yes, I've met the parents...look good to me.
thanks for reminding me that other countries could have different standards.

[Sugar's Mom]

Every single dog I have ever owned except for one, came from well known champion bloodlines some with almost their whole pedigree in red for champions. AKC and International. Not a one of them lived up to what I thought I was paying for when I paid for "big name" dogs. I have learned a lot in recent years about paying big money for big names. Champions probably do give you a better chance but it is certainly no guarantee that you get a nice, healthy, pretty dog that will show for you. Also I show in UKC as well as having shown "a little" in AKC. In UKC, we need 100 point and three competion wins to earn a champion title. I have a fabulous little well bred male that has the whole package but would not hold his tail up for anything. So I can't lay that off on his bloodlines. he has some of the best and no they are not at the back of his pedigree. LOL Just me not really knowing how to bring him out of it.

[magicgenie]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Good point about the other countries. Something for me to investigate further. the championships all seem to be American and Canadian except for there are 3 Brazilian, one Poland, and then that world champion - (don't know what the standard for that would be - Nik Nak's He's a Keeper - worth anything???). Like I said, champion dam, all 4 grand parents, all great grand parents, 10 of the great great, the remaining CH are in the last/5th generation showing.
the lines are Durrer's, Moonlight, Aero, Lake Buena Vista, Parkside, et al.
I looked up the names online and they are all good looking Yorkies, all with their own fairly impressive pedigrees (except...to my untrained eye, I wasn't that impressed with the Durrer's "look", but again my eye is worthless in such an evaluation)
Yes, I've met the parents...look good to me.
thanks for reminding me that other countries could have different standards.

The names you're listing are all well known and accomplished, and yes, one must go ahead and assume that the champions on it were excellent representations of the breed. Don't forget that foreign titles can be even more difficult to obtain, such as dogs under 16 months can only earn a Jr CH under FCI rules. While a nice pedigree doesn't guarantee you a show winner, it definitely increases your chances of having one. Good luck with it.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Sunnie

Kendra, I am pretty new to showing but you are correct in that just because a dog has a CH in front of it's name does not equate to being a quality dog. There ARE many levels of championships, but they do not get a CH in front of their name until they have won MANY shows. They need to have won 15 points and of those points 2 of the shows have to have been "majors" meaning they competed again SEVERAL dogs and not just 1 or 2. when they compete in a smaller show that is not a major, they usually only win 1 point for a win. so it takes many small wins and at least 2 major wins (by different judges) before they become a champion. and because so many health issues are NOT noticable when judging them, they still could be a not so good representation of the breed. But to me.. my logic would be if my dog had a serious problem, then I would not want to show them because you are only fooling yourself. how much pride would one get out of showing a dog to championsjhip that they knew had a genetic defect? so yes, having the CH in front of the name of many dogs in the pedigree certainly gives you a better feeling about the chances of it being a better quality dog, it isn't always the case. and you also want those CH lines to be in the first 2 generations.. the further back they are, the less significant they are. remember that even someone breeding proven CH to CH thruout their entire lines does not mean they will produce all champion quality dogs. they are lucky if they get one CH out of a litter. the longer they have been breeding and the better the breeder is at knowing which dogs will contribute the best qualities to their program, the more likely they will have healthy quality puppies.

A bit of correction Sunnie....The Champion should be in the first 3 generations; Reason, sire & dam contribute 50% to the gentics of the pup, Grandsire & Granddam 25% & Great Grandsire and Great Granddam 25%.
That is if you see one particular dog repeated several times throughout the pedigree then that dog would contribute to the genetics too. And the best way to pull out the best in lines is to line breed. If you see several different kennels within a pedigree.....you are mixing up the gene pool and you don't know what you'll get.

The trick is knowing how to breed the dogs....to keep the characteristics you want. Knowing each dog within the pedigree and what each of those dogs has produced.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Oh I should probably add the lines are Durrer's, Lake Buena Vista, Nik Nak, Aero's, Parkside, Moonlight, et al. As I suppose the lines also make the difference??

Some great kennels, several breeding within each other's lines, so there is a possibility the characteristics of some great dogs were solidified in the pedigree.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Good point about the other countries. Something for me to investigate further. the championships all seem to be American and Canadian except for there are 3 Brazilian, one Poland, and then that world champion - (don't know what the standard for that would be - Nik Nak's He's a Keeper - worth anything???). Like I said, champion dam, all 4 grand parents, all great grand parents, 10 of the great great, the remaining CH are in the last/5th generation showing.
the lines are Durrer's, Moonlight, Aero, Lake Buena Vista, Parkside, et al.
I looked up the names online and they are all good looking Yorkies, all with their own fairly impressive pedigrees (except...to my untrained eye, I wasn't that impressed with the Durrer's "look", but again my eye is worthless in such an evaluation)
Yes, I've met the parents...look good to me.
thanks for reminding me that other countries could have different standards.

Here's some info on Nik Nak....bred by Laurie Hunter
NicNak's He's A Keeper -- detailed information - Webvision4you Pedigree Database

[kjcmsw]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all the input as I'm trying hard to become better.
So my dogs and pups are good quality but I need to be delving deeper into each characteristic for betterment. The one pup seems to look very show quality to me (however limited I am there, but trying to learn more) except for his stinking ears are wrong (no pretending they're good -- even I know that much!! lol). Thus I need to figure out where that came from and eliminate it , but he's very healthy thus he'd make a very nice pet quality I assume??
(though one of the pups had a very good ear set, the third questionable)
But if I don't show, then the lines will gradually appear to be diminished due to no champions (no show/no champions) correct? However, they will still have the potential to be high quality dogs, just no 'shows' to back them up???
Bear with me here, I'm still working on getting a complete handle on the show aspect/outcome on the dogs, etc.
Thanks so much again for everyone's input.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by kjcmsw

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate all the input as I'm trying hard to become better.
So my dogs and pups are good quality but I need to be delving deeper into each characteristic for betterment. The one pup seems to look very show quality to me (however limited I am there, but trying to learn more) except for his stinking ears are wrong (no pretending they're good -- even I know that much!! lol). Thus I need to figure out where that came from and eliminate it , but he's very healthy thus he'd make a very nice pet quality I assume??
(though one of the pups had a very good ear set, the third questionable)
But if I don't show, then the lines will gradually appear to be diminished due to no champions (no show/no champions) correct? However, they will still have the potential to be high quality dogs, just no 'shows' to back them up???
Bear with me here, I'm still working on getting a complete handle on the show aspect/outcome on the dogs, etc.
Thanks so much again for everyone's input.

I think I mentioned to you about taking the Carmen Battaglia, breeding better dogs seminar. He teaches recessive and dominant genes....how to read the pedigrees and put the right 2 dogs together. Your best bet would find a quality bitch, with a great pedigree (line bred of course) that has great ears......it will take a few generations but, it can be done.

[Brooklynn]

If the ear set is alittle wide it probably comes from Aero but Aero is one of my favorite pedigrees LOL...but with pairing with the right match the ears can be fixed and having a wider ear set is actually something I can live with as it's not a major fault. You just have to know your lines and what lines can go together and what lines don't click. NicNak is another awesome lines along with Durrer and Pastoral! They all go together.

Donna

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I think I mentioned to you about taking the Carmen Battaglia, breeding better dogs seminar. He teaches recessive and dominant genes....how to read the pedigrees and put the right 2 dogs together. Your best bet would find a quality bitch, with a great pedigree (line bred of course) that has great ears......it will take a few generations but, it can be done.

Will definitely check that out. Thank you.