Show Prospect or Show Quality

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

There arer so many variables when purchasing a show dog.

However, since you mentioned new exhibitors, I strongly suggest that a proespect/potential not be purchased before the age of 8 months of age and closer to 12 months. A breeder that is selling a show dog to a newbie earlier than this is taking advantage of said newbie. A newbie is excited about getting into the ring, puppy doesn't turn out, how sad. So many things change with a puppy prior to 7 or 8 months of age......expecially in bitches. Toplines being one of the biggest things.

I've picked a pup from my breeder at 16 weeks of age. But, it is always with a kiss, smile and we'll see. Always understanding that if the dog doesn't turn out we'll pet it out. But, then again my goals are a bit different and I can't keep every dog. And of course having the trained eye of mentor who has been in this for 45+ years does help.

Which brings questions, how long has the breeder that is selling the show prospect/quality pup been showing, how many dogs from their own breeding has said breeder Championed, or at the very least is the show prospect from established lines. So much more that fits into the equation.

Again, buyer/newbie beware and don't be in such a hurry.

Excellent post!! I'll add this too....breeder beware as well

[Woogie Man]

As pertaining to newbies, how does 'buying a show quality dog' fit in with the route of having a mentor and getting started like that? Are there really good show prospects available to a newbie any other way? And why would someone sell show quality dogs to a newbie? Do some breeders have the problem of too many show quality dogs?

I can see how someone that is a ring veteran could acquire show quality through acquaintances...but I didn't see top quality dogs available when I was acquiring mine without strict s/n contracts. If I had known there was another way, maybe I could have saved myself a lot of trouble LOL.

Excuse the ignorance of these questions, but I have no shame at this point as I'm trying to learn more about the 'show world' in general. Plus, if I don't get one of mine to pan out, I'll be that newbie looking for a good prospect.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

As pertaining to newbies, how does 'buying a show quality dog' fit in with the route of having a mentor and getting started like that? Are there really good show prospects available to a newbie any other way? And why would someone sell show quality dogs to a newbie? Do some breeders have the problem of too many show quality dogs?

I can see how someone that is a ring veteran could acquire show quality through acquaintances...but I didn't see top quality dogs available when I was acquiring mine without strict s/n contracts. If I had known there was another way, maybe I could have saved myself a lot of trouble LOL.

Excuse the ignorance of these questions, but I have no shame at this point as I'm trying to learn more about the 'show world' in general. Plus, if I don't get one of mine to pan out, I'll be that newbie looking for a good prospect.

Great post and questions!!! Yes, unfortunately there are breeders out there that do sell "show" "quality" and not the newbie being their study or protege. We see it all the time in the show ring! We see newbie exhibitors selling show quality or prospects how weird is that? Just because a breeder has a couple of champions makes them think they have show quality or show prospects available to newbies. Here's how I see it, those newbie's that want to show and don't have the patience to find the right mentor or take time to go to the shows and find one of the great mentors and help them out and want to jump feet first there are going to be breeders that are just waiting on that type of person to sell them a dog. Once again, we see it all the time in the ring.
This is a great thread!!! Good posts!!!

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

As pertaining to newbies, how does 'buying a show quality dog' fit in with the route of having a mentor and getting started like that? Are there really good show prospects available to a newbie any other way? And why would someone sell show quality dogs to a newbie? Do some breeders have the problem of too many show quality dogs?

I can see how someone that is a ring veteran could acquire show quality through acquaintances...but I didn't see top quality dogs available when I was acquiring mine without strict s/n contracts. If I had known there was another way, maybe I could have saved myself a lot of trouble LOL.

Excuse the ignorance of these questions, but I have no shame at this point as I'm trying to learn more about the 'show world' in general. Plus, if I don't get one of mine to pan out, I'll be that newbie looking for a good prospect.

Your questions are good ones. And can only speak from my experience, I found my mentor first and of course wasn't allowed to have one of her dogs for about a year and half. She knew what I wanted and evaluated dogs for me over the course of that time. And here's what my mentor has always told me when placing a prospect in a show home. "I will not release a said prospect unless I am willing to keep it in my breeding program. After all it's my reputation in the ring".

In today's world a newbie must accept the fact that there will be a strict contract. That contract is the only way to protect the line and to evaluate if the newbie is serious. And as I said there is no short cut.....the journey is a difficult, if one is doing it correctly.

Yes, there are newbies out there that are in a hurry and go to the first person that will sell them a dog on an open registration. These breeders have no qualms about taking someone's money, and painting a pretty picture for an uneducated newbie.

[Woogie Man]

I know that, at one time, I contacted a few breeders with champion sired pups. I did get some responses with pics of the parents and, frankly, I had better dogs than those and I was looking to improve. Which goes back to the saying, "there are champions and then there are true champions". What I wound up with was getting dogs with good lines that I thought had the potential to be a good starting point, and I believe that's just what I have....and I feel lucky to have that.

Short of getting a mentor, I don't see any way for a true 'newbie' to get a show quality dog unless they get very lucky. As you say, mostly it would be a case of the newbie being taken advantage of.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I know that, at one time, I contacted a few breeders with champion sired pups. I did get some responses with pics of the parents and, frankly, I had better dogs than those and I was looking to improve. Which goes back to the saying, "there are champions and then there are true champions". What I wound up with was getting dogs with good lines that I thought had the potential to be a good starting point, and I believe that's just what I have....and I feel lucky to have that.

Short of getting a mentor, I don't see any way for a true 'newbie' to get a show quality dog unless they get very lucky. As you say, mostly it would be a case of the newbie being taken advantage of.

Let me put it this way. If I were to be approached for a Show Dog, it would be fully understood by the purchaser that I would mentor them, every step of the way. Selling a show quality/potential dog should be a big responsibility to a breeder. There are plenty of reputable/long time/exhibitor breeders with wonderful lines that are very willing to mentor a newbie. What is difficult is finding a newbie that is worthy. And I don't mean this to be arrogant......it's there are very few newbies that are willing to invest the time and learn in the best interest of the breed.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I know that, at one time, I contacted a few breeders with champion sired pups. I did get some responses with pics of the parents and, frankly, I had better dogs than those and I was looking to improve. Which goes back to the saying, "there are champions and then there are true champions". What I wound up with was getting dogs with good lines that I thought had the potential to be a good starting point, and I believe that's just what I have....and I feel lucky to have that.

Short of getting a mentor, I don't see any way for a true 'newbie' to get a show quality dog unless they get very lucky. As you say, mostly it would be a case of the newbie being taken advantage of.

Love this phrase I have bolded in your comment!!

I just don't have a trust for people much so I'm always paying attention to every detail in a breeder/yorkie/exhibitor ect.....I"ve had the pleasure and honor of getting to know and become very good dear friends with some of the most respected yorkie breeder/exhibitors both in Canada and the US and so many doors have opened up and it's taken over 7 years to get to where I am so I'm always wondering how a breeder/exhibitor can start or even begin to start selling show prospects or quality and they haven't even been exhibiting for even a year or so. I listen and watch so much when I go to dog shows and oh the amount of mental notes I have stored in my brain. I guess if I started to write them down I'd have a novel by now on the do's and don'ts in what to have in the ring ect.... LOL

[Woogie Man]

I have seen it said that a breeder (even an accomplished one) may only get a great prospect every few litters. And then I've seen where some will say the only difference in their show dogs vs their pet quality is temperament. I have yet to figure out which is true and I suppose it varies from breeder to breeder. I do think that anyone getting a dog for show potential must know something about how to evaluate a pup on their own and not just 'buy the pedigree', so the idea of any newbie buying a true show quality dog would be, to me, a leap of faith on the newbie's part.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Love this phrase!!

I just don't have a trust for people much so I'm always paying attention to every detail in a breeder/yorkie/exhibitor ect.....I"ve had the pleasure and honor of getting to know and become very good dear friends with some of the most respected yorkie breeder/exhibitors both in Canada and the US and so many doors have opened up and it's taken over 7 years to get to where I am so I'm always wondering how a breeder/exhibitor can start or even begin to start selling show prospects or quality and they haven't even been exhibiting for even a year or so. I listen and watch so much when I go to dog shows and oh the amount of mental notes I have stored in my brain. I guess if I started to write them down I'd have a novel by now on the do's and don'ts in what to have in the ring ect.... LOL

Remember the conversation we had about me being in the company of some very respected breeders.......I sat and listened......and throughout that weekend all the was going through my head was oh S@#$..........You do learn so much when you watch and listen.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I have seen it said that a breeder (even an accomplished one) may only get a great prospect every few litters. And then I've seen where some will say the only difference in their show dogs vs their pet quality is temperament. I have yet to figure out which is true and I suppose it varies from breeder to breeder. I do think that anyone getting a dog for show potential must know something about how to evaluate a pup on their own and not just 'buy the pedigree', so the idea of any newbie buying a true show quality dog would be, to me, a leap of faith on the newbie's part.

What you've heard is somewhat correct. The accomplished breeder knows how to put two dogs together to reach their goal, this comes with knowing their lines backward and forward. And yes, you're lucky if you get a good show dog out of every 6 litters. And it's also known to have a great breeding program you need a minimum of 4 bitches.

I don't think a newbie buying a true show quality dog should be a leap of faith. What a newbie should be doing is studying breeders/pedigrees and then choosing their mentor. Not to the first person that will sell them a dog on open registration.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Let me put it this way. If I were to be approached for a Show Dog, it would be fully understood by the purchaser that I would mentor them, every step of the way. Selling a show quality/potential dog should be a big responsibility to a breeder. There are plenty of reputable/long time/exhibitor breeders with wonderful lines that are very willing to mentor a newbie. What is difficult is finding a newbie that is worthy. And I don't mean this to be arrogant......it's there are very few newbies that are willing to invest the time and learn in the best interest of the breed.

I think that varies greatly by area. I've mentioned to you before the exhibitor friend I have. Though our relationship is not quite one of mentor/understudy, I have learned a lot from her. Honestly, though, I only know of one other accomplished exhibitor in my area and she is now retired from both showing and breeding. You and some others here do offer some wonderful advice, though, and it's sort of like 'virtual mentoring' .

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Love this phrase I have bolded in your comment!!

I just don't have a trust for people much so I'm always paying attention to every detail in a breeder/yorkie/exhibitor ect.....I"ve had the pleasure and honor of getting to know and become very good dear friends with some of the most respected yorkie breeder/exhibitors both in Canada and the US and so many doors have opened up and it's taken over 7 years to get to where I am so I'm always wondering how a breeder/exhibitor can start or even begin to start selling show prospects or quality and they haven't even been exhibiting for even a year or so. I listen and watch so much when I go to dog shows and oh the amount of mental notes I have stored in my brain. I guess if I started to write them down I'd have a novel by now on the do's and don'ts in what to have in the ring ect.... LOL

Hey, Donna....you could start a blog here on YT. I bet it would get a lot of views. As it is, yours and others posts are very educational.

[yorkielady06]

Why discourage a newbie?

What is there to gain?

As a newbie myself, I am somewhat saddened to see people do that. I have been with my mentor for a few months now, yet she has never once given that "air of superiority" to me. She has taken me under her wing and has begun teaching me the ways of the show world. Through her I have truly understood some of the whys of keeping to the standard. I have petted out 3 of my 5 breeding dogs and took her guidance in why.
There is guiding someone and there is trying to shove your beliefs on someone. I prefer to be guided and have excelled with it. I was approached this weekend 3 different times by people who are even more NEW than myself. They were looking for "show puppies...." I sent them to my mentor. I have respect for her as she has earned that from me. Prior to mentoring me, she clearly told me that no dogs leave her home to show or breed in our state. I did purchase this show boy with her in on every decision. The breeder/exhibitor sold to me knowing of my mentor and her reputation. So in that I was able to find this boy. I was not discourage or treated as an inferior just because I was wanting to enter in the show world and I am very thankful for that.
As I come on here I can only say that there are no perfect dogs and there definitely are no perfect people. I choose to treat people how I would like to be treated. So when those "newbies" were asking questions about show puppies, and those people looking for great pets from a breeder/exhibitor, I sent them to the right person, my mentor. She is a YTCA member. She is knowledgeable in the breed and its standards. She health tests her dogs, and protects her breed. I guess it is how she does it that makes her stand out. Maybe there needs to be more of that in the show world and it would not have diminishing numbers.

My questions to you ladies are:

Do you only use Champions when producing a litter?
Have you always only used Champions to produce a litter?
How many homebred champions do you have?
How many homebred grandchampions do you have?
Have you ever sold a show prospect to a newbie in another state with a YTCA and exhibitor standing behind them?

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Remember the conversation we had about me being in the company of some very respected breeders.......I sat and listened......and throughout that weekend all the was going through my head was oh S@#$..........You do learn so much when you watch and listen.

OH gosh I remember you telling me that! What I would have given to be with you traveling with them! Those 3 together what a wealth of knowledge! I am thankful that I have come to know one of them and what a lovely woman she is! Now to get to know the other one that was in the car

Donna

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

Why discourage a newbie?

What is there to gain?

As a newbie myself, I am somewhat saddened to see people do that. I have been with my mentor for a few months now, yet she has never once given that "air of superiority" to me. She has taken me under her wing and has begun teaching me the ways of the show world. Through her I have truly understood some of the whys of keeping to the standard. I have petted out 3 of my 5 breeding dogs and took her guidance in why.
There is guiding someone and there is trying to shove your beliefs on someone. I prefer to be guided and have excelled with it. I was approached this weekend 3 different times by people who are even more NEW than myself. They were looking for "show puppies...." I sent them to my mentor. I have respect for her as she has earned that from me. Prior to mentoring me, she clearly told me that no dogs leave her home to show or breed in our state. I did purchase this show boy with her in on every decision. The breeder/exhibitor sold to me knowing of my mentor and her reputation. So in that I was able to find this boy. I was not discourage or treated as an inferior just because I was wanting to enter in the show world and I am very thankful for that.
As I come on here I can only say that there are no perfect dogs and there definitely are no perfect people. I choose to treat people how I would like to be treated. So when those "newbies" were asking questions about show puppies, and those people looking for great pets from a breeder/exhibitor, I sent them to the right person, my mentor. She is a YTCA member. She is knowledgeable in the breed and its standards. She health tests her dogs, and protects her breed. I guess it is how she does it that makes her stand out. Maybe there needs to be more of that in the show world and it would not have diminishing numbers.

My questions to you ladies are:

Do you only use Champions when producing a litter?
Have you always only used Champions to produce a litter?
How many homebred champions do you have?
How many homebred grandchampions do you have?
Have you ever sold a show prospect to a newbie in another state with a YTCA and exhibitor standing behind them?

Why are you discouraged? You have a mentor We are speaking of those who go about it the wrong way....looks to me you are doing it the right way

Do you only use Champions when producing a litter?
When I got started the bitch I used wasn't a champion but the sire's were always champions. I've only produced 5 litters, 3 litters from the non champion bitch but she produced my first home bred champion and my other bitch had one litter and she was a champion when I bred her to my champion male.

Have you always only used Champions to produce a litter?
The above answer should have answered this one

How many homebred champions do you have?
One but neutered
How many homebred grandchampions do you have?
The male I'm showing is a Grand Champion but no I don't have a homebred "grand champion" as this only started this year and I haven't had a litter in over 2 years
Have you ever sold a show prospect to a newbie in another state with a YTCA and exhibitor standing behind them?
NOPE

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

What you've heard is somewhat correct. The accomplished breeder knows how to put two dogs together to reach their goal, this comes with knowing their lines backward and forward. And yes, you're lucky if you get a good show dog out of every 6 litters. And it's also known to have a great breeding program you need a minimum of 4 bitches.

I don't think a newbie buying a true show quality dog should be a leap of faith. What a newbie should be doing is studying breeders/pedigrees and then choosing their mentor. Not to the first person that will sell them a dog on open registration.

Mary, when you say 4 bitches, are you meaning 4 bitches from completely different lines and, if not, is there an ideal as to how much the pedigrees should intersect? Sisters, half-sisters, Aunts, any relationship?

Also, I agree with your last statement above. It's just that, in my mind, a newbie wouldn't be one who could really study breeders and pedigrees with a good understanding, so that prompts my 'leap of faith' comment. I guess that begs the question, "what is a newbie" as pertains to this subject.