learning question
 

I brought this here for a good reason when you are in a breeding program and you are trying to better the breed and for better lines and quality.

Who is the most important in your kennels a great male or several great females ?I have always been told that you need a great male first and foremost but i have also heard the females are the most important
so when you are striving for better which becomes your most important
asset

I have always believed it to be a great female. You can come across really good males, but harder for a female. JMO

A good bitch is worth her weight in gold. Given the choice of a quality champion stud and a quality champion bitch, I pick the bitch..you can always buy the best champion stud service.

but would not the great male be used more as each pass 50/50 on genetics

I am with you Pat! :thumbup: I have heard this for years and so much better to breed to a good quality champion stud and pay the stud service. There just seems to always be good champion studs around. A lot harder to find a great quality champion bitch. If you look at the ones being Specialed - the champion males out number the bitches always - out there any given year.
It is not about quantity, but quality.

oh i agree about the quality
so you would rather have a kennel per say or a house full of quality bitches
and look for a great male if need be
sometimes easier said than done

I agree with Rose........A quality female is really worth her weight in gold.......

You do need more bitches than studs.......

I prefer my own studs......since I prefer to line breed.

IMO..Rarely, can a breeder own one stud...no stud can have all the qualities needed to compliment every bitch you want to breed him with...
Start with a bitch, buy top of the line stud service..keep the best bitches and at some point buy a stud you really like or have produced yourself.
Buy the stud first and you are locked into using him whether you get what you want or not...or you place him and look for another...you will be looking for bitches to breed with him and that is not easy...own a quality bitch and you have your choice of many breeders studs..no limits...
I have never owned a number one champion or ever will, but I have bought stud service from them...

JMO ..but I think 2 quality studs are the least you can get by with..3 worked for me...sometimes the genes just do not click, no matter the pedigree.

You are so right. As well as knowing that repeat breedings will never produce the same....

This breeding thing is much more complicated than most know...

.......... this is a great question!! Although I am not a breeder, I try to keep myself as informed and educated on the Yorkie Breed as best I can. Great discussion! Very interesting opinions!

Great to see you back Pat!! What you said is so true and you speak from experience. I have heard the same from the top breeders. They always celebrated when they had a top quality champion bitch. Something to be treasured, forsure.
And Mary you are so right - breeding is so complicated. If we could only have that crystal ball - life would be so much easier. LOL

While I agree to have the best quality bitch I still prefer my males :) I'd rather have males but I do know you need an outstanding bitch and one day I'll have one but right now I love my boy!!! I say this because I prefer the show ring to the whelping box LOL

Donna

Now where have I heard this question before?

Me too Donna.....

Although there was a great article in YT Magazine and Yorkie Club Magazine......Some of the top breeders....Doreen Hubbard, Roberta Rothenbach and others.....stating that a quality bitch is a gem......worth her weight and more in gold.....even if she wasn't a Champion should have all the qualities of one.......and coupled with a great stud, with the ability to reproduce himself.....could produce some wonderful offspring.........Johnnie Handsome comes to mind. As well as Theif, he's produced 5 Champions this year alone.

why you of course you made me very curious you always have great questions
so as always you have brought up the re thinking about which dogs i want to keep and which i need to pet out

in retrospect in 1-10 which is the greatest quality you look for starting with what is most important

per say

1 being top line or 2 being coat etc what is most important
as some are structure some are head some are coat hunters which should be number one and so one what is the least thing we should worry about
as we all know we can not get it all

Wow! great questions! I'll be interested to hear what those more experienced will say!

1. Structure.....Great topline, head carriage, movement.
2. Health
3. Attitude....if you don't have that, it doesn't matter if you have the rest....Nothing worse that showing a dog that doesn't want to be there.
4. I can live with a not so nice head, if the rest there. Although I do like a pretty head.
5 Coat color is so difficult to achieve, but I won't throw out the cake just because the frosting didn't turn out......you can eventually fix coat color.

I have to have structure and movement but health to me is the #1 priority then comes the structure and movement. Then I move on to a pretty head. I've never had so far an attitude problem to deal with LOL...I believe in if the puppies are raised in a socializaton and good environment then you'll have the attitude you are looking for. It seems when I'm evaluating puppies the ones I see that I like always have the attitude but that is in my experince so far.
Coat color is the last I worry about because without the other the color doesn't matter in my opinion. Achieving the color should be important but I can live with a lighter yorkie than I can with a horrible structure and topline


Donna

Very interesting thread. I feel that correct structure, health, attitude and proper coat all go hand in hand. You have to look at the whole package. I really feel that they are all equally important because if you are missing just one key ingredient, you will not have a show dog. Of course minor variances from the standard can be excepted since there is no perfect dog. Still, as a newbie to the show world it is still very perplexing to me how so many show breeders/exhibitors do not place as much emphases on color and many correct improper color with enhancing products. I certainly can understand why they do that if the dog is otherwise near perfect but it stills goes against the YTCA code of ethics. I really think it would be more beneficial for the breed if so much emphasis was not placed on color in the standard. I feel that texture is much more important than color. Oh well, I am still learning.

Barb,

In no attempts to begin an arguement, but making a statement about color as you did.......you'd better be sure you've got your facts correct. If you're speaking too experienced exhibitor breeders.....let me tell you, they are so expert you could never tell their dogs have been colored, not even a judge could......now that is dependent on if they do.
Things have come along way from the days of lavendar colored dogs......

Color is one of the most hardest things to produce.....and then correct color is in the eyes of the beholder.......every judge is different....one prefers dark, the other goes towards the light blue.......

The actual emphasis is placed upon the coat in it's entirety.......that's why we see judges putting up a dog because of coat and overlooking the dog with great structure/movement.....

As far as products used......anything that is placed on a dog, including hairspray, anti-stat, shine......is considered a foreign product....and your dog can be dismissed if a judge chose to do so.

All are equally important BUT as you pointed out there is no perfect yorkie and so when I go for a show quality yorkie I and others start with what we feel is more important to the least but mind you all is important.
As to color and coat, it's in the eye of the beholder and yes while I agree it shouldn't be focused on as much in our standard as it says and focus more on the health and structure and how the dog is put together.
And not to start anything either...you yourself have stated that you don't attend many shows so where are you getting your information that so many exhibitors are enhancing? Or do not place much emphises on coat and color?
It goes against the code of ethics if we put hairspray or gel on the yorkie so really this retorical question is and has been redundant.
I believe in what I stated above and stand by it as I do strive to achieve the best representation of the breed as possible but will not throw out a yorkie based on it's color if everything else is near perfect :)
Donna

Donna, I may not go to a lot of shows but I have talked to a lot of other exhibitor/breeders, not just in Texas, that have my same concerns and I have been told by many that it is just common practice. Using hair spray does not change the color of the dog. If a breeder has a dog that is too light and they feel they have to color the dog in order to make it competitive or to keep it from being disqualified then I just perceive it as deceptive but there again it is just part of the show world. As I have stated before I know it has always gone on and I just wish it was not that way. If I had a near perfect dog except for the color I suppose I would do the same thing. I really do understand what you mean.

How do you describe the proper yorkie attitude? If a yorkie goes in the ring, head up, ears up, tail up and moves on a lead is that considered good attitude or do the judges like those that are a bit of a wild child that are really alert and taking in everything around them?

Yorkie attitude is hard to describe, but I sure know it when I see it...
It is more then ears, head and tail up..it is expression and a present that can be seen and felt coming from the dog. Lots of Yorkies walk well, with all things "up"..but they can be robotic and not interact with handler, judge etc...

As to owning a stud..I was answering this for someone who is just starting...locking yourself into a male too early and it can set you back years...

as far as color and dying dogs, Mr. Willaim Usherwood had a lot to say about that in a commentary I saw some other place. I am looking for it now. he talked a lot about the purple and blue dogs and very bad dye jobs he has seen especially since the standard has changed. probably some of you have read the same thing I did. yes, Mary professional people can dye dogs till it is hard to detect but even being a novice, I have seen some that were handled by top people and were so obviously dyed I could tell it. I'm not trying to be argumentative either but "most" dye jobs are easily detected. I only wish I could do a decent job. LOL I am going to start practicing on my little light Ceeby.

LOL...I have to laugh because unless an exhibitor says they are coloring/ehancing and or it's VERY obivious it's really hard to tell who and how many actually enhance their dogs and it's not like it's announced to everyone "Hey my dog is colored/enhanced". I know many that do not color and I really don't think it's "common" practice actually. Yes, you'll have some that do color and you know....if it's being done to be competitive as you say then you also have to say it's being competitive when you use hairspray, gel, anti stat, shine sprays, conditionars, the little red bow ect and to be perfectly honest all that other stuff except the red bow can be used to "EXCUSE" a yorkie from the ring.....what I don't understand is why is someone that does color their dog so important to you when there are bad top lines, horrible rears and fronts and the exhibitors that tease a top line to make it not look bad....why aren't you calling all that deceptive and just hone in on color? There is so much that is being done more so than enhancing the color to cover up faults....I'm just seeing you have a problem with coloring over what is more important in my opinion and that is health and structure and movement....there is more problems in the ring with that than coloring and enhancing...I'm in the ring "A LOT" to see what is going on....Again, not to be argumentative ti's just how I see it.

Donna

Mary, I am not sure what you mean by getting my facts straight. I am just talking about what I have heard from reputable show breeders, some are members of the YTCA. I know the handlers do it and some of the breeder/exhibitors do it. You are right, it is hard to tell. I just love a beautiful dog, whether it is a lighter steel blue or a dark steel blue. The new issue of the E Yorkshire Magazine has some wonderful pictures of the winners at the roving specialty and you can see the different variations of the steel blue and the gold. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but sometimes you don't know if the beauty you see came out of a bottle.

I've read Usherwoods article......I for one wouldn't show to him as others aren't and not because of his disqualification practices......

Yes, at time there are bad enhancing jobs, but there are those out there that you would be surprised that they are enhanced.

The trick is to use the right product and the correct & timely application......and how to seal it.

Again I will say if you read the standard correctly......anything you put on a dog is against the rules......hairspray, color, hair shine.....anything.....the coat is suppose to be squeeky clean, devoid of any product.....I'm sure many have gone into the grooming area and watched poodle people put in fake hair on the topknot. Terrier people chalking.....etc.....I could go on and on. Jay Amon was an artist and could make an imperfect dog perfect......and made no bones about it........

Other common things that are practiced in efforts to make the appearance a bit more appealing to the judge.

scuplting a neck with the the proper thinning procedure to make it appear to have a longer neck.
trimming feet in such a manner when the dog toes out too much or in.
teasing the hair on the topline when the topline isn't dead even.
or teasing the hair at the tail when the tail set is low.......
tieing up ears........
And blueing a black dog
coloring the gold on a platnium dog
bleaching out thumb prints.
Products to use to make a soft coat reflect light and feel cool to the touch.....

All common practices......and one would never know who is doing it...unless you are an expert.

And then one must remember again, it's not done by any exhibitor all the time......And if you've got great structure on a dog.......and pretty near perfect.....I'd never condem anyone for doing it.

I'm not sure which YTCA members you've been talking too. But, that's something that just isn't even discussed........yeah! we know it's done, but readily shared, NOT...... Heck we don't even share a grooming product secrets......

If an experet in the art of enhancing, you know how to achieve those variations of blue and gold......it's an art form.....I've watched it being done by one of the best and when all was done, not even the hairdresser knew for sure.

But, as I said, color is secondary to me.......I strive for it....but health and structure (and they go hand in hand) are the most important thing to me......

LOL, funny but I have had a breeder/exhibitors tell me their dog is enhanced and what products they used. Donna, I am not trying to argue with you, I feel structure is much more important than color. I am just saying that I wish people could just show their dogs without having to enhance the coats. I just like the natural look.:)