AKC or UKC?? which one?

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by tegamom1

Dee, it certainly wasn't anyone's intent to make you angry or upset. We all have our preferences as to what we choose to do. I appreciate your answering some of our questions. Is it one point per each dog entered?

I must say that I am also disappointed when people who have not shown that often in AKC make assumptions that all the shows are political and not fun or present a "family atmosphere". Nothing could be farther from the truth. If you notice when watching the big dog shows on Animal Planet, the large number of dogs in the group rings that are owner handled or breeder, owner, handled. It's wonderful, and at shows, the competition is fierce IN the ring, outside the ring, it's hey, can I borrow a bow, would you throw a topknot in for me, where are we going for dinner...I'm hungry....lol

I don't know anyone who doesn't feel they have a chance to win with they walk their dog in the ring. They wouldn't be doing it if they did. If a dog is well groomed and presented well, anyone can win

Just after the new DQ rule came out, there were a couple of judges that DQ'd a puppy and I do mean only a couple. Yes, there are dogs that get DQ'd now and then and most of the time, there is a reason for it and again, it doesn't happen that often, considering the number of AKC shows that are held every day/week.

My kids loved going to the shows with me! They loved the dogs and all the excitement and loved watching mommy (and even sometimes daddy) win! They're all grown up now, but a couple of them are really looking forward to going to the specialty in Dallas with me next month. It's a day at the dog show, win or lose..it's a pleasure and something we enjoy doing.

I only show AKC, that's my preference and yes, I do think it's more valuable, again, my opinion.

no no no, I did not get upset. Just that these threads usually turn into, "My dog and what I am doing is better than yours". Fortunately, most of this thread has been very informational.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

That is correct. if you go into the UKC ring with a brush or comb even in your pocket, you will be excused from the ring. They DO check the dogs for products. The judges will literally pick up the coat of a long haired dog and run their hands thru it checking for products. I was at a show last year when a judge took a topknot down. there are of course, discreet little ways to do things but you better not get caught. I got called on the carpet this past Spring for flat ironing my dog. It was called excessive grooming. Our dogs usually go into the ring with only a bath of shampoo and conditioner. people may say it is easier to finish in UKC but one thing about it, it is not a beauty contest and if your dog wins, it wins on it's own merit. Not vecause it is all prettied up or died or anything. the judges don't have to stand at the table and wait while the handler brushes her dog again before the go round. That is so irritating when I watch the big AKC shows.

The old school for handling is that you never brush a dog on the table, I know many do it today. I was taught it's a no, no.....incorrect ring etiquette to keep the judge waiting. It's fruitless anyway. You put the dog on the floor and it shakes, so your brushing efforts go out the window. But, on the other hand the brush is put on the table for the judge to use, so they can pull up the coat and watch it drop, judging for correct texture.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

Tina, I showed under two judges Saturday that actually checked the toy dogs for LP while they were doing the hands over on the table. First time I have ever seen that and I asked my judge if that was what she was doing and I think it was great. Of course, they always check for structure, front end, hips, shoulders and all that, but to actually see a judge check for LP was amazing. All the toy dogs got checked.

That's great, but AKC judges check for LP most of the time. However, if the judge is not a vet, they cannot determine what grade level LP the dog has and we all know that LP can be caused by injury. When they're going over the the dogs they are not only checking how the dog is put together (bone structure), but also checking for anomolies, leg length to see if there has been any surgical repair, hip dysplasia, etc.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

That's great, but AKC judges check for LP most of the time. However, if the judge is not a vet, they cannot determine what grade level LP the dog has and we all know that LP can be caused by injury. When they're going over the the dogs they are not only checking how the dog is put together (bone structure), but also checking for anomolies, leg length to see if there has been any surgical repair, hip dysplasia, etc.

If a dog has had a surgical repair for something accidental like a fracture repair does that matter?

I know of a show breeder who has a yorkie who fractured her leg as a puppy. the surgeon i worked for repaired it and it looked wonderful after it healed. The breeder gave the surgeon the very next ribbon she won after surgery. I do not think she went on to champion though. do you think the fracture repair had anything to do with it?

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

The old school for handling is that you never brush a dog on the table, I know many do it today. I was taught it's a no, no.....incorrect ring etiquette to keep the judge waiting. It's fruitless anyway. You put the dog on the floor and it shakes, so your brushing efforts go out the window. But, on the other hand the brush is put on the table for the judge to use, so they can pull up the coat and watch it drop, judging for correct texture.

i always thought it was pointless too. When i watch the dog shows i see the handlers comb the dog before putting it on the floor. everyone is watching and waiting. then they put the dog on the floor and it shakes. whats the point? LOL

[Sugar's Mom]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

That's great, but AKC judges check for LP most of the time. However, if the judge is not a vet, they cannot determine what grade level LP the dog has and we all know that LP can be caused by injury. When they're going over the the dogs they are not only checking how the dog is put together (bone structure), but also checking for anomolies, leg length to see if there has been any surgical repair, hip dysplasia, etc.

I have never seen the AKC judges check for LP unless I was so nervous when my dog was on the table, I just wasn't aware. That is a huge possibility. Mary, I saw the darndest thing Saturday. There is a fairly new breed (I think) called Rusky. It shows in the companion group and looks like a larger out of standard chi with scraggly hair. (Sorry if anyone has one LOL) Anyway the same lady had three in the ring and one of them hopped around on three legs. She had her daughters showing two of them and the judge even asked her to take the little hopping one aroundd instead of her daughters. There was not a sound in the show area as everyone stood up and watched the little dog. I first thought it was just acting up as i think it was a puppy. Then the longer it went on, the worse it got to the point of hopping on three legs. I felt so bad for the little dog. of course it got DQ'd but I still don't know if it was hurt or just acting up.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by kalina82

If a dog has had a surgical repair for something accidental like a fracture repair does that matter?

I know of a show breeder who has a yorkie who fractured her leg as a puppy. the surgeon i worked for repaired it and it looked wonderful after it healed. The breeder gave the surgeon the very next ribbon she won after surgery. I do not think she went on to champion though. do you think the fracture repair had anything to do with it?

Nope, a fracture repair is acceptable. Just because a pup or dog got crazy and jumped off of something and broke it's leg, that isn't genetic.

I'm not sure without seeing the pup whether the fracture had anything to do with not finishing....it could have been a multitude of reasons that we may never know.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

I have never seen the AKC judges check for LP unless I was so nervous when my dog was on the table, I just wasn't aware. That is a huge possibility. Mary, I saw the darndest thing Saturday. There is a fairly new breed (I think) called Rusky. It shows in the companion group and looks like a larger out of standard chi with scraggly hair. (Sorry if anyone has one LOL) Anyway the same lady had three in the ring and one of them hopped around on three legs. She had her daughters showing two of them and the judge even asked her to take the little hopping one aroundd instead of her daughters. There was not a sound in the show area as everyone stood up and watched the little dog. I first thought it was just acting up as i think it was a puppy. Then the longer it went on, the worse it got to the point of hopping on three legs. I felt so bad for the little dog. of course it got DQ'd but I still don't know if it was hurt or just acting up.

Poor puppy. Hey! My Denny went around the ring on his hind legs....nothing was wrong with him, he's just a circus clown. He did obtain his AKC Championship at 14 months of age....and I got embarrassed all the time.

[Ladyhawk]

This has been very interesting. I've been showing in both venues for 3 years. Depending on the competition in your area it can be very easy to finish an UKC champion. All you need is a dog of each sex where one is clearly a better speciman of the breed and you can finish in 3 shows, I know I've done it. I've also taken in my boy and have beaten AKC champions. I've seen lousy dogs in the UKC ring and I've seen Westminster winners in the UKC ring. It is good practice and less intimidating than AKC for a beginner.
AKC can be great fun but it does take a while to make friends and fit in. I guess it's like anywhere else that there is competition. Some of the judges in UKC are very educated, some judge in both venues like Sharon Griffin, and some are long time breeders like Joyce Lea-Hanson whose foundation goes back to England. Some like a couple of judges in AKC don't have a clue and would even put up a dog with sickle hock because it has a nice coat. I've seen excellence and crap in both but I do know that the AKC title is harder to obtain by far and is the most coveted title in the world.
I guess in the end it just depends on your goals and the assets that are available to you. As far as the sale of pups are concerned I don't think it makes a ton of difference to pet owners. UKC champions are listed as U champions on most of the pedigrees that I've seen. The quality of the pup is determined by the genes that are are given by the dam and sire and the prepotency of those parents for the desired traits. A title is desirable and a definite goal for me but it doesn't show the dog's genotype, it would be simpler if it did.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

This has been very interesting. I've been showing in both venues for 3 years. Depending on the competition in your area it can be very easy to finish an UKC champion. All you need is a dog of each sex where one is clearly a better speciman of the breed and you can finish in 3 shows, I know I've done it. I've also taken in my boy and have beaten AKC champions. I've seen lousy dogs in the UKC ring and I've seen Westminster winners in the UKC ring. It is good practice and less intimidating than AKC for a beginner.
AKC can be great fun but it does take a while to make friends and fit in. I guess it's like anywhere else that there is competition. Some of the judges in UKC are very educated, some judge in both venues like Sharon Griffin, and some are long time breeders like Joyce Lea-Hanson whose foundation goes back to England. Some like a couple of judges in AKC don't have a clue and would even put up a dog with sickle hock because it has a nice coat. I've seen excellence and crap in both but I do know that the AKC title is harder to obtain by far and is the most coveted title in the world.
I guess in the end it just depends on your goals and the assets that are available to you. As far as the sale of pups are concerned I don't think it makes a ton of difference to pet owners. UKC champions are listed as U champions on most of the pedigrees that I've seen. The quality of the pup is determined by the genes that are are given by the dam and sire and the prepotency of those parents for the desired traits. A title is desirable and a definite goal for me but it doesn't show the dog's genotype, it would be simpler if it did.

Thanks Tami, You're ability to answer some questions from both sides of the fence. I don't think that I'll ever compete in UKC, but it's nice info to know

Other than one easier than the other to obtain a title than the other...Judges are judges and you have good ones and bad ones.....As you say, some only look at the coat.....which can cover a multitude of faults. A bad dog can Champion in any venue if one knows what judges to present their dogs too.

The one thing I may not agree with you is pet buyers not caring whether their are Championships in the background of a pup. Most of my families are pretty savy about pedigrees and dogs and come to me for a pet, because of their pedigree and their long line of Champions in their background.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Thanks Tami, You're ability to answer some questions from both sides of the fence. I don't think that I'll ever compete in UKC, but it's nice info to know

Other than one easier than the other to obtain a title than the other...Judges are judges and you have good ones and bad ones.....As you say, some only look at the coat.....which can cover a multitude of faults. A bad dog can Champion in any venue if one knows what judges to present their dogs too.

The one thing I may not agree with you is pet buyers not caring whether their are Championships in the background of a pup. Most of my families are pretty savy about pedigrees and dogs and come to me for a pet, because of their pedigree and their long line of Champions in their background.

Maybe it's the current economy but I have 2 boys, one is Ch. sired and one Ch. grandsired and it's just not helping me find them homes at all. Also with this economy I think we'll find that if you can't afford to show in both venues AKC will end up being the preference. With money tight I just don't feel a need to show Ace in UKC. I have to concentrate my resources towards getting him finished in AKC. I have no doubt he could be finished in UKC within a weekend so it's not worth the money to me right now.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Maybe it's the current economy but I have 2 boys, one is Ch. sired and one Ch. grandsired and it's just not helping me find them homes at all. Also with this economy I think we'll find that if you can't afford to show in both venues AKC will end up being the preference. With money tight I just don't feel a need to show Ace in UKC. I have to concentrate my resources towards getting him finished in AKC. I have no doubt he could be finished in UKC within a weekend so it's not worth the money to me right now.

The economy and the region in where you live contributes to your ability to place a puppy.

I don't know what the entry fees are in UKC, but it has been discussed in AKC that the higher entry fees are contributing to the low entry numbers. That and the economy taking it's toll on travel. Though I didn't attend NY this year, I understand the numbers were way down, higher hotel fees on a newly renovated hotel and of course the cost of airline tickets, having to pay extra for luggage...were all contributing factors.

[Sugar's Mom]

mary, it does depend on the region you live in. I have called about puppies and asked what the pedigree is and people don't even know what I am talking about. And I have noticed a lot of my buyers when I go to rattling off the champions and pedigrees and etc, they will stop me and say, "we don't want a show dog and all that means nothing to us,, we just want a nice healthy dog'. there are some show people in my area now that for the past year or so have found it impossible to move their champion sired or champion damed pups. i have been selling everything i had to sell for about the same money they ask for their dogs. of course I haven't had much to sell this year. I agree with Tami that having an AKC champion is the goal I have and most everyone I know but I will never forget where I came from and where I started from. And I will never say that my UKC titles mean nothing to me. I worked hard for them. oh, I almost forgot, the entry fee for UKC is $25. When you do two shows a day for several days, it adds up.

[Sbyork]

I agree with everyone here. After 29yrs of AKC showing you have to have a dedication and want to stay with it, BUT an AKC Championship is the Gold standard. Through the years I have seen many people thinking they can buy a dog and go in and win their first show, they fail too and end up leaving AKC shows. I think AKC says that something like 80% of newbies are gone before a year is out, They fail to understand the work and dedication it takes. Most of these other clubs have been started out of a need to give people a chance to show without the need to compete with the best of the best AKC.
Stick with AKC, The experience of an AKC Championship is priceless!
Try to find a mentor(AKC has a new program) and have fun!

Sparkling Blu Yorkies

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom

mary, it does depend on the region you live in. I have called about puppies and asked what the pedigree is and people don't even know what I am talking about. And I have noticed a lot of my buyers when I go to rattling off the champions and pedigrees and etc, they will stop me and say, "we don't want a show dog and all that means nothing to usm,, we just want a nice healthy dog'. there are some show people in my area now that for the past year or so have found it impossible to move their champion sired or champion damed pups. I agree with Tami that having an AKC champion is the goal I have and most everyone I know but I will never forget where I came from and where I started from. And I will never say that my UKC titles mean nothing to me. I worked hard for them.

Most of my families I meet at dog shows, others are repeat buyers and others through word of mouth or YTCA....so, when they inquire on puppies, they're familiar with my line (Lee's) and want a quality pet. What most have a problem with understanding that since I breed for myself and not in the business to sell puppies, they have to wait for me to assess my dogs before I identify which are pet and which I'm going to keep.