Wow Is Akc Turning Into Ckc?

[yorkielover4lif]

I think they're being hypocritical in the sense that they say these dogs can compete only if they are spayed/neutered. What happens when the Conditional ban is lifted & these dogs get full registration rights back...they can then no longer compete because they are fixed!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkielover4lif

I think they're being hypocritical in the sense that they say these dogs can compete only if they are spayed/neutered. What happens when the Conditional ban is lifted & these dogs get full registration rights back...they can then no longer compete because they are fixed!

I think you might be misunderstanding something, what do you mean by "conditional ban"? These dogs will never be able to enter the conformance shows, they have no proof they are purebred. Since there is no "proof" they are not illegible for the AKC registry, and neither would their offspring, this is one of the reasons for the neutering mandate. As the others have stated this is not a new program, it's been around for long time but was called Indefinite Listing Program (ILP); they just change the name to Purebred Alternative Listing (PAL) thinking it was more user friendly. It's not to be thought of as an alternative registry.

"Enrollment in the Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege program is not to be construed as an alternative form of registration, but rather, as a listing so that dogs who are ineligible for AKC registration may participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events. There are various reasons why a purebred dog might not be eligible for registration. The dog may be the product of an unregistered litter, or have unregistered parents. The dog's papers may have been withheld by its breeder or lost by its owner. Sometimes, it is the dog itself that was "lost." There are many dogs enrolled in the PAL/ILP program after they have been surrendered or abandoned, then adopted by new owners from animal shelters or purebred rescue groups. The PAL/ILP program allows the dog and owner a second chance at discovering the rewards of participating in AKC events."

I don't believe mixed breeds are even illegible for this, but I do know that forty-one 41 specific in the FSS Program that are eligible for Companion Events. Foundation Stock Service® Breeds in Companion Events


American Kennel Club - Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by yorkielover4lif

I think they're being hypocritical in the sense that they say these dogs can compete only if they are spayed/neutered.

I understand what you mean. (I think.) Now granted, I am definately a supporter of s/n dogs that are not being bred, however, I don't think that should be AKC's decision...it should be the owner's decision. I don't see why the competitions should be open to altered dogs only.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I understand what you mean. (I think.) Now granted, I am definately a supporter of s/n dogs that are not being bred, however, I don't think that should be AKC's decision...it should be the owner's decision. I don't see why the competitions should be open to altered dogs only.

I think this is so that unethical breeders won't breed the PAL registered puppies, and claim that they are AKC registered. You know, some people would do that.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I think this is so that unethical breeders won't breed the PAL registered puppies, and claim that they are AKC registered. You know, some people would do that.

But they wouldn't be registered...they wouldn't be able to get paperwork for them.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

But they wouldn't be registered...they wouldn't be able to get paperwork for them.

I understand this, but they could SAY their dogs were registered with the AKC, you know, mislead people.

Many breeders already do similar things such as saying that the parents are registered, misleading buyers to think that the puppies are eligible for registration, but when buyer actually checks it out, have been told that the parents were on "limited registration" meaning any off spring are not eligible. So these unethical breeders turn to the "alternative" registries, who welcome them with open arms. The AKC is trying not to be involved in this unethical registration practice, and rightly so. I think they are very clear and upfront with what they are trying to accomplish.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I understand this, but they could SAY their dogs were registered with the AKC, you know, mislead people.

Well if that's the case, what would prevent them from registering them in the PAL program and doing the same thing? Or registering any dog w/ the PAL program and passing the paperwork off as belonging to the pups? Point being, if there's a will, there's a way...so limiting the competition to altered dogs is really pointless.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Well if that's the case, what would prevent them from registering them in the PAL program and doing the same thing? Or registering any dog w/ the PAL program and passing the paperwork off as belonging to the pups? Point being, if there's a will, there's a way...so limiting the competition to altered dogs is really pointless.

There could be no pups registered because parents are neutered. People buying pups could register them under PAL, not AKC. I don't understand why you can't see the difference. I'm sure the majority of members of the AKC don't see it as pointless.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

There could be no pups registered because parents are neutered. People buying pups could register them under PAL, not AKC.

That is what I meant---registering the pups under PAL and trying to pass them off, not the parents. All just hypothetically speaking.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I don't understand why you can't see the difference. I'm sure the majority of members of the AKC don't see it as pointless.

I was just stating my opinion--sorry if I have offended or upset you by having one of my own. You don't have to agree with it. My personal opinion is that it seems unfair that AKC would force you to s/n your dogs in order for them to compete and that if their reasoning is to prevent people from passing them off as AKC dogs, it's pointless--people can and do that everyday anyway.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

That is what I meant---registering the pups under PAL and trying to pass them off, not the parents. All just hypothetically speaking.




I was just stating my opinion--sorry if I have offended or upset you by having one of my own. You don't have to agree with it. My personal opinion is that it seems unfair that AKC would force you to s/n your dogs in order for them to compete and that if their reasoning is to prevent people from passing them off as AKC dogs, it's pointless--people can and do that everyday anyway.

I'm not offended, you said, "I don't see why the competitions should be open altered dogs only," and I was trying to explain it, also I'm really trying to understand why you think it's pointless. The argument "Where there a will there's a way," doesn't sit with me because you could use that in any situation where people take certain precautions. For example, why bother locking your car, if someone wants to get in they'll just break a window, "Where there's a will there's a way". Some people think it's pointless to lock your car, I don't, but I couldn't probably explain to them why it isn't pointless, any better than I have explained why this isn't pointless. It's just a precautionary measure.

At one time, being registered was synonymous with the AKC; it meant something. Since the AKC has cracked down on breeders and disqualified many, these alternative registries have popped up. Anyone can start a registry. I can start a registry; you can start a registry. Titles with words international and continental and American sound prestigious, and are often selected to sound authentic, but have little value. I think they are used so people can say, "My dog is registered." So it is in my opinion, that these registries were started in order to mislead the public, and/or certain breeders.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

At one time, being registered was synonymous with the AKC; it meant something. Since the AKC has cracked down on breeders and disqualified many, these alternative registries have popped up. Anyone can start a registry. I can start a registry; you can start a registry. Titles with words international and continental and American sound prestigious, and are often selected to sound authentic, but have little value. I think they are used so people can say, "My dog is registered." So it is in my opinion, that these registries were started in order to mislead the public, and/or certain breeders.

Not sure how the conversation took a turn to the value of alternate registries, but anywho...

I was trying to state a very simple personal opinion: That I personally don't think it's fair for AKC to only allow altered dogs to compete...it takes a permanent choice regarding a dogs health out of the owner's hands and holds it over their heads forcing them to 'play by our rules.' I just don't get what they are achieving by doing so. It's not a point that needs to be argued or explained to me, it's my opinion which happens to be one different that your own. We will have to agree to disagree on, I suppose.

[dyanna neal]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

That is what I meant---registering the pups under PAL and trying to pass them off, not the parents. All just hypothetically speaking.




I was just stating my opinion--sorry if I have offended or upset you by having one of my own. You don't have to agree with it. My personal opinion is that it seems unfair that AKC would force you to s/n your dogs in order for them to compete and that if their reasoning is to prevent people from passing them off as AKC dogs, it's pointless--people can and do that everyday anyway.

i so agree !! Dyanna's Yorkie and Professional Pet Grooming

[ziggyzeke]

Originally Posted by KYBLUE

Conditional Registration



The AKC’s DNA programs have resulted in an unprecedented level of accuracy to the AKC registry by evaluating the parentage of many AKC dogs and litters. However, for that very small percentage of registered dogs that are found, often years after birth, to have an unknown ancestor, the AKC has canceled the registration.

To maintain genetic diversity, improve customer relations, and still maintain the accuracy of the registry, the Board of Directors approved the concept to allow the issuing of Conditional registration certificates and pedigrees, rather than canceling the registrations of a dog, all of its littermates and all of their progeny in these cases.

This concept was discussed at the September 2005 Delegate Meeting where AKC’s Consultant on DNA Science and Technology Dr. Elaine Ostrander recommended its implementation.

Below are the answers to some questions you may have. We welcome additional feedback at dna@akc.org.

Conditional Registration Certificate
Conditional Registration Pedigree

What is a Conditional Registration and Pedigree?
When unknown parentage is indicated via DNA testing, the status of the registration will be downgraded to “conditional” until a three generation pedigree is established. “Unknown” will be noted on the registration or pedigree for the ancestor in question. This will only occur in cases where the dogs are believed to be purebred, but a registered parent is found to be incorrect.

The documents will have a different colored border and will be clearly labeled as Conditional. Also, a new registration number will be issued so that people familiar with AKC registration numbers can tell at a glance that the registration is different. For example, a dog initially registered as TN123456/01 would be registered with Conditional registration as QT123456/01. Thus, these dogs will be clearly noted as Conditional by their registration number, similar to the ‘Z’ used in the registration number for descendants of white Doberman Pinschers. In addition, the word “Conditional” will be boldly stated on the registration certificate which will have a yellow border (compared to purple for standard registrations or orange for limited).

Why is this measure being adopted?
AKC continues to collect a rapidly growing number of DNA samples. By the close of 2006, the AKC had more than 425,000 DNA profiles from 196 AKC and FSS breeds in its database.

With our Frequently Used Sires requirement, many dogs are DNA profiled when they are three or four years old and have sired seven or more litters. AKC evaluates their parentage, and if incorrect parentage is found, it is sometimes not possible to determine the correct parentage of the litter because a potential sire is deceased or unable to be located. Currently, in these cases the registrations of the litter and its members and their offspring are canceled. A single case of an unknown sire can result in the cancellation of hundreds of AKC registrations. The negative reaction, especially from owners who registered their dog with AKC only to later have it canceled, is very damaging to AKC’s image.

Again, it is important to note that Conditional registration is only to be issued in cases where the dog appears and is believed to be purebred – it is just that one of the dog’s ancestors is unknown.

Why are Conditional Pedigrees considered the solution?
The AKC Board, staff, and Dr. Elaine Ostrander (consultant to AKC on DNA science and technology issues) have carefully and thoroughly considered this issue, weighing the benefits and drawbacks to various solutions.

In her September 2005 address to the Delegate Body, Dr. Ostrander recommended that AKC adopt this solution to allow for informed breeder decisions while maintaining a large population for genetic diversity.

The conclusion reached by all is that totally removing purebred dogs from the gene pool may not be the best thing for the breed populations or for AKC’s relationship with dog owners. By fully disclosing the incident of unknown parentage, breeders and dog owners can make their own, informed opinions about whether or not they will buy or breed a certain dog.

Will the registrations ever revert to Full?
Current policy for introducing breeds into the AKC registry requires a three-generation pedigree on each dog. This policy will also apply to dogs when an "unknown" dog is found in its pedigree based on a failed DNA test. An individual dog's registration can be reverted to regular registration status with the completion of a DNA sample verifying parentage of that individual dog and confirming three generations of DNA-verified parentage. Returning to full registration after three generations of verified parentage is also in line with the acceptance of imported dogs with three-generation pedigrees from the country of origin.

Can these dogs be bred?
If both sire and dam have AKC DNA profiles, the litter may be registered. Litters already registered when the registration is converted will be changed to Conditional status.

What about event participation?
A dog with Conditional registration may participate in any event in which ILP dogs may participate. They may not participate in Conformation events or Field Trials, and titles previously earned in these events will be removed from the dog’s record. In the fourth generation of DNA-profiled parentage, the registration will revert to Full and the dog may participate in any AKC event.

Is the breeder penalized?
The discipline policies have not changed. When incorrect parentage is discovered via compulsory DNA programs, such as the Frequently Used Sires requirement or the Compliance Audit Program, the breeder is subject to a graduated schedule of penalties. When the DNA is on file on a voluntary basis, discipline is not applied.

What about dogs which are not purebred?
Conditional registration is only for dogs that appear to be purebred and had full AKC registration prior to the DNA exclusions being found. If the dogs in question do not appear to be purebred, an impure breeding complaint can be made to the Impure Breeding Committee, which will open an inquiry and take appropriate action.

Will the new mixed-breed DNA test be employed in determining Conditional status?
No. These new DNA tests are designed to determine the primary and secondary genetic heritage of mixed breed dogs, not to certify whether or not a dog is purebred. The AKC believes that the best way to determine parentage of a dog is still based on AKC’s long-standing DNA program and AKC does not intend to use these tests to evaluate a dog’s status as purebred. The AKC has long had procedures in place to deal with cases of impure breeding and will continue to use this method in dealing with any matters concerning the parentage of AKC registered dogs. AKC will, however, maintain positive contact with the laboratories offering breed identification testing, and may incorporate some of these techniques as a tool in registration inquiries in the future.

How will this affect the integrity of the AKC studbook?
A dog or bitch is listed in the AKC studbook after their first litter is registered. If a dog with Conditional registration (noted with the letter designation Q in the AKC registration number) appears in the studbook, it will help breeders quickly identify incomplete pedigrees. Having this tool will alert breeders that a Conditional dog has remained in its breed’s gene pool.

Will Conditional Litters be eligible for advertising in AKC’s Online Breeder Classifieds?
Yes, but the litter listing will note that the litter has Conditional registration, with a link for more information.

I paid for a DNA test kit for my 10 month old yorkie and it came back with interesting results, he (dad) is not the father. Are there any actions or steps I should take? The breeder who sold it to me sold him with a bill of sale stating he was being sold with full AKC registration. Now I might loose his registration papers. Cant she be sued or shut down as a breeder?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by ziggyzeke

I paid for a DNA test kit for my 10 month old yorkie and it came back with interesting results, he (dad) is not the father. Are there any actions or steps I should take? The breeder who sold it to me sold him with a bill of sale stating he was being sold with full AKC registration. Now I might loose his registration papers. Cant she be sued or shut down as a breeder?

This is an old thread, if I were you I'd start a new thread with your question.