Raw chicken/turkey bones

[mimimomo]

Well now, you're attacking me. Why don't you chill & not respond til you cool down?

I don't need scientific proof that a dog's (& cat's) natural diet is raw. I've been feeding my Yorkies a raw diet for years now & I can see how much their health has improved. I've done extensive research. We know that even for humans, food that comes processed in a bag or box is not healthy.

It saddens me to read about all the health issues all the dogs have here on YT & FB. How many times do you read posts about kidney/ renal failure & bladder issues & stones? They can all be eliminated by a raw diet. Fresh feeding. No processed food day in & day out. It's your dog(s) trying to tell you that what you are feeding is not working out human.

So yes, I'll be very passionate on this topic & whenever a nay saying/ anti- raw feeder says something, I will back it up. I will stand up for what I believe dogs & cats should be eating. I do not believe in kibble or canned food, cooked food for our pets in general. I believe in fresh feeding foremost & that they should be eating what they would be eating IF they were in the wild. A house dog will go out & catch a wild rabbit & eat it right there on the road. I saw it here in my neighborhood, a GSD. Yes, we have wild bunnies & coyotes here too.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

Well now, you're attacking me. Why don't you chill & not respond til you cool down?

I don't need scientific proof that a dog's (& cat's) natural diet is raw. I've been feeding my Yorkies a raw diet for years now & I can see how much their health has improved. I've done extensive research. We know that even for humans, food that comes processed in a bag or box is not healthy.

It saddens me to read about all the health issues all the dogs have here on YT & FB. How many times do you read posts about kidney/ renal failure & bladder issues & stones? They can all be eliminated by a raw diet. Fresh feeding. No processed food day in & day out. It's your dog(s) trying to tell you that what you are feeding is not working out human.

So yes, I'll be very passionate on this topic & whenever a nay saying/ anti- raw feeder says something, I will back it up. I will stand up for what I believe dogs & cats should be eating. I do not believe in kibble or canned food, cooked food for our pets in general. I believe in fresh feeding foremost & that they should be eating what they would be eating IF they were in the wild. A house dog will go out & catch a wild rabbit & eat it right there on the road. I saw it here in my neighborhood, a GSD. Yes, we have wild bunnies & coyotes here too.

You can not prove that though so you don’t have anything to back it up. I do with the risks. Personally I think home cooking is the best not necessarily dry food but my boys prefer dry food whether you want to believe that or not. Again I’m doing the same. It’s one thing to stand up for your opinion but try to do it without false information like dogs can’t get salmonella that is just dangerous misinformation. You called my opinion ignorant and that is because it’s different then yours and that I’m not educated and that’s an attack and just not true. I never called your opinion ignorant. When I’m straight out called ignorant and uneducated I’m going to snap back. Many extremely well educated people disagree on things and have different opinions. I feel like I have done extensive research on what is best for my dogs. Mine have killed rabbits and mice and do not try to eat them. There are dogs that do terrible on raw and amazing on dry food.

[mimimomo]

Since you keep mentioning salmonella over & over again to ad nauseam. Please read this whole thing.
https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2...cqO-39xgUPUx-I

Another major concern with raw diets is in regards to potential pathogenic organisms, like salmonella, E coli, or internal parasites. There are multiple studies comparing the amount of salmonella bacteria found in kibble fed vs raw fed dog’s feces. In one study, 16 dogs were fed a contaminated raw food meal, and 7 of those dogs shed salmonella bacteria in their stool for up to 7 days following the meal; none of the dogs were symptomatic [76]. Another study found that dogs fed raw diets were significantly more likely to shed salmonella in their stool than dogs fed other types of diets [77]. Yet another identified salmonella in 30% of the stool samples analyzed from dogs fed a raw diet [78].

However, the frequency of fecal isolation of salmonella in healthy non raw fed dogs has been shown to be as high as 36% [79], indicating that this is not exclusive to raw fed animals. Further, fecal isolation of salmonella doesn’t directly translate to a higher risk of salmonella – all it means is that the animal has successfully passed salmonella bacteria without becoming symptomatic. The ability to harbor and pass salmonella as a normal, nonpathogenic bacteria is a known trait of carnivores [80].

Other studies have identified the presence of pathogenic microorganisms in commercial raw foods. One study found that 7% of the 60 commercial raw diet products analyzed tested positive for salmonella [81]. Another study analyzed 240 commercial raw food samples and 42 processed food samples (24 dry, 24 canned); about 6% of these samples tested positive for salmonella (all of which were raw foods), and 53% of these samples tested positive for E. coli (including both raw and processed foods) [82].

This is not exclusive to raw pet food products. Salmonella and other harmful pathogens have been found in dry foods [83] and dog chews and treats [84, 85]. There are many documented cases of humans obtaining salmonella from dry and canned pet foods [86].

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

Since you keep mentioning salmonella over & over again to ad nauseam. Please read this whole thing.
https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2...cqO-39xgUPUx-I

Another major concern with raw diets is in regards to potential pathogenic organisms, like salmonella, E coli, or internal parasites. There are multiple studies comparing the amount of salmonella bacteria found in kibble fed vs raw fed dog’s feces. In one study, 16 dogs were fed a contaminated raw food meal, and 7 of those dogs shed salmonella bacteria in their stool for up to 7 days following the meal; none of the dogs were symptomatic [76]. Another study found that dogs fed raw diets were significantly more likely to shed salmonella in their stool than dogs fed other types of diets [77]. Yet another identified salmonella in 30% of the stool samples analyzed from dogs fed a raw diet [78].

However, the frequency of fecal isolation of salmonella in healthy non raw fed dogs has been shown to be as high as 36% [79], indicating that this is not exclusive to raw fed animals. Further, fecal isolation of salmonella doesn’t directly translate to a higher risk of salmonella – all it means is that the animal has successfully passed salmonella bacteria without becoming symptomatic. The ability to harbor and pass salmonella as a normal, nonpathogenic bacteria is a known trait of carnivores [80].

Other studies have identified the presence of pathogenic microorganisms in commercial raw foods. One study found that 7% of the 60 commercial raw diet products analyzed tested positive for salmonella [81]. Another study analyzed 240 commercial raw food samples and 42 processed food samples (24 dry, 24 canned); about 6% of these samples tested positive for salmonella (all of which were raw foods), and 53% of these samples tested positive for E. coli (including both raw and processed foods) [82].

This is not exclusive to raw pet food products. Salmonella and other harmful pathogens have been found in dry foods [83] and dog chews and treats [84, 85]. There are many documented cases of humans obtaining salmonella from dry and canned pet foods [86].

I have absolutely no interest in conversing with you any more. You have crossed a line in the other thread and I am done!

[mimimomo]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

I have absolutely no interest in conversing with you any more. You have crossed a line in the other thread and I am done!

LMAO I was just doing what you were doing...

[mimimomo]

Anyone interested in the gut microbiome, this is a great video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM9Cv7zoAO8

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

You do this in EVERY raw thread & post...ignorant just means lacking knowledge. Just bc you took vet assistant classes doesn't mean you're right on this topic. I was not attacking you, just pointing out what you do.

Why do you think dogs these are having all these health issues? Cancer is @ an epidemic & obesity is out of control. They are eating man made junk, causing man made diseases! All kinds of gut issues like pancreatis, IBD, IBS, PLE, PLN, just to name a few but is rampant. Joint issues, skin problems, rotting teeth...all causes by a unnatural diet of kibble!

Raw fed dogs have a healthy gut flora, shiny hair, no skin issues, white teeth, overall thriving. None of the kibble fed counterpart diseases. Years of domestication did not change their digestive system. They have & are still evolved to eat raw meat & bones, just look @ their teeth!

Did you know that kibble aka processed food has only been around for 159 yrs? According to palaeontologists, it takes 100,000 yrs for a species to partially adapt to a new diet. So a domesticated dog is technically still a wolf in terms of digestion. https://honeysrealdogfood.com/canine...TOuMQYogosMbc8

Very good read! https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2...cqO-39xgUPUx-I

Jenny, I asked on another thread, and I am asking here as well. Please provide scientific evidence of your claims....specifically those I have highlighted. I am not interested in anecdotal evidence.

As to dental issues...picking off tartar and plaque will NOT save a dog's teeth. You cannot know what is going on in a dog's mouth without dental xrays. MOST of the periodontal issues are not visible! Feeding raw is NOT going to save your dogs' teeth!

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

LMAO I was just doing what you were doing...

Are you actually being serious? I have NEVER NEVER attacked you saying that your dogs sickness or illnesses or I jures are caused by what you feed and that is exactly what you did and it crossed a line!

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

Of course raw is their natural diet, canines are carnivores! Us humans are the ONLY species on this entire planet that cooks our food. There are an estimated 18 million species on planet earth.

Zoo animals eat their own species biologically appropriate diet that's specially formulated for them. If dogs were in zoos, they would be eating a raw diet. In fact, their close relative, the wolves in captivity & in the wild eat raw.

Please do not quote me, as I won't be replying to your ignorant remarks about raw diets that you know nothing about. Please do your own research or don't waste my time w/ your nonsense. If you want to continue learning, I will be happy to assist.

From petdiets.com , Dr. Rebecca Remillard who absolutely knows about this topic! Her resume (and others she works with) is here: https://www.petdiets.com/about

QUESTION:If dogs are carnivores, should not their diet be mostly meat as it was in the wild?
ANSWER:
The term carnivore may be used as either a taxonomic classification or a type of feeding behavior. Taxonomically, dogs are members of the order Carnivora, which is quite a diverse group. It includes 12 families of more than 260 species, and in fact contains some plant eating mammals such as the panda. There are three feeding behavior types (omnivorous, herbivorous and carnivorous) all of which can be found among members of the order Carnivora. Dogs are in the order Carnivora, but their feeding behaviors are best described as omnivorous. Their anatomy and physiology also support an omnivore diet. The nearest living ancestors of our domestic dog are wolves, and the closest living relatives are coyotes. Both wolves and coyotes are opportunistic predators and scavengers. They eat carrion (dead animals), small mammals, birds, amphibians, and the feces of herbivores (horses) that does contain plant material (starch, fiber). Canine predators consume the intestinal tract of large herbivores, which contains plant material. Both coyotes and wolves have been observed eating plants; fruits, berries, persimmons, mushrooms, and melons in the wild. Similarly, our dogs have anatomical and physiological characteristics that permit the digestion and utilization of a widely varied diet from both plant and animal sources.

The nutrient composition of an organ or skeletal meat, even including the bone, does not meet the known nutrient requirements of the dog; in fact, it is quite deficient in some nutrients and excessive in others. Yes, dogs like to eat meat and chew on bones. However, that does not necessarily mean that the nutrient composition of such a diet is complete and balanced for the dog. Most of us like some foods more than others, but a diet comprised of only the foods we like is not a complete and balanced diet for us, either! Dog foods today use both plant and animal ingredient sources. Most products are nearly 90% digestible with the exception of those designed to have a lower digestibility for weight reduction.

[ladyjane]

As to the salmonella discussion, I await your research studies that prove it is harmless. I am not interested in raw food forum opinions and/or anecdotal evidence. I want to see actual scientific studies.

And, please do include the people who live with these raw fed dogs.

I will say one thing that I know about...if you EVER contract salmonella you will never knowingly expose yourself to it again. I had it once and thought I was going to die. People DO die from it.

[Wylie's Mom]

It's always been the case that, at times, discussions about how we feed our kiddos take a turn towards becoming emotional and somewhat combative.

I'm very passionate about dog nutrition as well - and have studied it at length, like many of our other members. And the only thing I'm really sure of at this point, is that we can't be sure of anything as it relates to feeding canines. Until we have thorough and consistent scientific studies / trials that are published in peer-reviewed journals -- it's all really a best guess at the end of the day, even by Veterinarian Nutritionists.

So until and unless we have undeniable facts regarding canine diets, we all need to be respectful and accepting of how each of us feeds their dogs.

And just for full disclosure - I do in fact feed raw, and have for years now. But I still believe that dogs can thrive on raw, kibble, canned, cooked or any combination of methods. And while there may be some obvious benefit of feeding raw for *some* kiddos -- I will say that after feeding raw for about 10yrs, I do not perceive added dental benefits; and I don't perceive any difference in skin issues -- in fact, I've had 3 babies with environmental allergies.

Bottom line, be respectful.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by Mike_and_Me

I know this has been discussed before, but who gives raw chicken/turkey necks or other bones to their furkids? Mike's developed tartar on his back teeth. I'm currently giving him PlaqueOff and it seems to softer the tartar as I was able to scrape some of it but I can't get to his back teeth. He doesn't chew anything, he gulps his kibble, rawhide is bad and he doesn't like nylabones with those little bristles. Fruits and veggies I give for treats aren't really "chewing". He loves to chew, but i'm struggling with finding anything appropriate for a year... I'm afraid to give large meaty bones due to risk of breaking teeth. And we have nothing else available here for chewing. So I thought maybe give him frozen chicken or turkey necks once/twice a week to gnaw on it and eat it, and I'm reading they don't pose any issues for digestion. Thank you!

I believe the enzymes found in a raw diet or raw meat and bones are responsible for keeping wild animals and animals fed on a raw diet teeth clean, it’s not so much the abrasive the action of eating bones or kibble that will keep the teeth clean. Freezing will not kill enzymes nor bacteria, and I wouldn’t feed frozen products to any pet.

An alternative option would be to use an enzymatic toothpaste for pets if you are uncomfortable feeding raw.

[lilgidget]

It sounds like things are getting way out of hand with the name calling and finger pointing. This forum should be for adults only and not adults acting like children who are wanting to be "right" not matter what. Let's get this back to a healthy forum for all concerned.

[mimimomo]

Originally Posted by kjc

I believe the enzymes found in a raw diet or raw meat and bones are responsible for keeping wild animals and animals fed on a raw diet teeth clean, it’s not so much the abrasive the action of eating bones or kibble that will keep the teeth clean. Freezing will not kill enzymes nor bacteria, and I wouldn’t feed frozen products to any pet.

An alternative option would be to use an enzymatic toothpaste for pets if you are uncomfortable feeding raw.

Yes raw meats have enzymes intact (bc they are heat sensitive) but it's the crunching of bones & ripping, tearing of the flesh that cleans their teeth. If you feed grinds where everything including bones are ground up, it doesn't clean the teeth. You still need to be proactive & brush their teeth daily. Giving raw meaty bones helps tremendously.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

Yes raw meats have enzymes intact (bc they are heat sensitive) but it's the crunching of bones & ripping, tearing of the flesh that cleans their teeth. If you feed grinds where everything including bones are ground up, it doesn't clean the teeth. You still need to be proactive & brush their teeth daily. Giving raw meaty bones helps tremendously.

Lol, thanks. After I posted I realized it was probably more the combination of the two....