Vegetarian diet

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

Thanks for all of that info, Phil! I was having a deleterious day, yesterday. Hubby was snoring and kept me up all night and I am awaiting an answer re: my PhD placement. It's making me a wreck!


I think I will stick to a meat diet for my dog for the initial reason I stated which is that I do not believe that dogs should be denied meat on the basis of human ethics BUT I have learned so much in just a couple of days re: additives in kibble food, etc. Not particular to the brand I use, which is Acana, but I believe all manufactured food is at risk for quality control issues and ingredient considerations are not always 100% because these considerations are made by humans who are not infallible.


I can't thank the OP enough for asking the question which prompted my own questions and for everyone's opinions/advice/experience. I really do love YT for these reasons! Thanks again for the info! I shall have a look later on today!

Misty, if you can get a full digital copy of the article "A field study on the nutrition of vegetarian dogs and cats in Europe," let me know. I'd like to read it. Maybe you will have better luck since you are in Europe.

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Misty, if you can get a full digital copy of the article "A field study on the nutrition of vegetarian dogs and cats in Europe," let me know. I'd like to read it. Maybe you will have better luck since you are in Europe.

Hi Phil,


After checking over 150 articles, I admitted defeat and contacted our library services. I have been advised that the article is not an article but is, in fact, a conference reference which has not been published. From what I can tell, the study did not support a vegetarian or vegan diet for cats or dogs on the basis of severe vitamin deficiency as a result of following this diet over a sustained period of time. The results were based on adult dogs and cats who were on a veggie diet after the age of 1 year old. However, the results were taken from a total of EIGHT animals so, in my opinion, is a rather small population sample which means further research would be beneficial.


Hope that helps!

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

Hi Phil,


After checking over 150 articles, I admitted defeat and contacted our library services. I have been advised that the article is not an article but is, in fact, a conference reference which has not been published. From what I can tell, the study did not support a vegetarian or vegan diet for cats or dogs on the basis of severe vitamin deficiency as a result of following this diet over a sustained period of time. The results were based on adult dogs and cats who were on a veggie diet after the age of 1 year old. However, the results were taken from a total of EIGHT animals so, in my opinion, is a rather small population sample which means further research would be beneficial.


Hope that helps!

So maybe the abstract that I posted is all that has been published . According to the abstract, there were:

54 dog owners with a total of 86 dogs and 5 cats owners with 8 cats.

The owners provided information on the medical history of their pets. In a standardized questionnaire, these pet owners were asked to state their reasons for choosing a vegetarian diet and to provide a detailed description of their pet's diet.

Subsequently, the nutritional requirements were calculated for sixty-six adult dogs (11% lacto -ovo-vegetarian, 47% lacto-vegetarian, 29% vegan, and 13% semivegetarian), 8 vegan puppies from a single litter, and for all 8 cats.

For what it's worth, it looks like there were 86 dogs and 8 cats. They collected data on 66 adult dogs, 8 vegan puppies, and all 8 cats. So perhaps the 8 animals you are referring to were the 8 vegan puppies that were half the normal weight for their age. At any, it's still a small population size. Unfortunately, this seems to be one of the few publications on the effects of a vegetarian diet on dogs.

The Japanese study that I cited earlier () studied the effect of feeding plant vs. animal protein to sports dogs. They concluded that to prevent "sports anemia," it's best to feed animal protein to the sporting dogs during the active part of their life, and vegetable protein after they have retired.

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by pstinard

So maybe the abstract that I posted is all that has been published . According to the abstract, there were:

54 dog owners with a total of 86 dogs and 5 cats owners with 8 cats.

The owners provided information on the medical history of their pets. In a standardized questionnaire, these pet owners were asked to state their reasons for choosing a vegetarian diet and to provide a detailed description of their pet's diet.

Subsequently, the nutritional requirements were calculated for sixty-six adult dogs (11% lacto -ovo-vegetarian, 47% lacto-vegetarian, 29% vegan, and 13% semivegetarian), 8 vegan puppies from a single litter, and for all 8 cats.

For what it's worth, it looks like there were 86 dogs and 8 cats. They collected data on 66 adult dogs, 8 vegan puppies, and all 8 cats. So perhaps the 8 animals you are referring to were the 8 vegan puppies that were half the normal weight for their age. At any, it's still a small population size. Unfortunately, this seems to be one of the few publications on the effects of a vegetarian diet on dogs.

The Japanese study that I cited earlier () studied the effect of feeding plant vs. animal protein to sports dogs. They concluded that to prevent "sports anemia," it's best to feed animal protein to the sporting dogs during the active part of their life, and vegetable protein after they have retired.

Yeah, the results etc are similar to what I found but I had to use a German translation thingy from Google which, to be fair, is not the best. I think that explains the discrepancy in the sample size. However, as talented as I may be in many things, the German language is not among my skill set!


Still, a relatively small sample size to assume generalizations. One author of this study, E. Kienzle, is very prominent in zoology and has written many research articles re: fiber in foods and how to make the most of supplements and the pros and cons of commercial pet foods versus homemade etc. I don't know if that would be of any interest to you? I thought I'd mention it since I found it interesting that, of the 144 articles which were available, none were the one we were seeking! However, I learned a lot just from scanning this authors available published works! So, if you're interested, have a look. If you can't find something, let me know and I'll try to help?


Also, if anyone is interested in rhino/tapir feces consistency on the basis of B12 deficiency and iron supplements, please do let me know! These published works are care of E. Kienzle! lol

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

Yeah, the results etc are similar to what I found but I had to use a German translation thingy from Google which, to be fair, is not the best. I think that explains the discrepancy in the sample size. However, as talented as I may be in many things, the German language is not among my skill set!


Still, a relatively small sample size to assume generalizations. One author of this study, E. Kienzle, is very prominent in zoology and has written many research articles re: fiber in foods and how to make the most of supplements and the pros and cons of commercial pet foods versus homemade etc. I don't know if that would be of any interest to you? I thought I'd mention it since I found it interesting that, of the 144 articles which were available, none were the one we were seeking! However, I learned a lot just from scanning this authors available published works! So, if you're interested, have a look. If you can't find something, let me know and I'll try to help?


Also, if anyone is interested in rhino/tapir feces consistency on the basis of B12 deficiency and iron supplements, please do let me know! These published works are care of E. Kienzle! lol

Yes, I was looking at some of the other Ellen Kienzle articles yesterday. She has an article on the effect of chondroitin and mussel extract on dogs with joint diseases (A Placebo-Controlled Double-Blind Study on the Effect of Nutraceuticals (Chondroitin Sulfate and Mussel Extract) in Dogs with Joint Diseases as Perceived by Their Owners) as well as articles about measuring various nutritional contents of commercial dog foods. Very interesting!

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Yes, I was looking at some of the other Ellen Kienzle articles yesterday. She has an article on the effect of chondroitin and mussel extract on dogs with joint diseases (A Placebo-Controlled Double-Blind Study on the Effect of Nutraceuticals (Chondroitin Sulfate and Mussel Extract) in Dogs with Joint Diseases as Perceived by Their Owners) as well as articles about measuring various nutritional contents of commercial dog foods. Very interesting!

Infuriating that I thought you were onto something with that article as far as evidence based research goes but, alas, it seems that was it for this researcher as far as this particular line of research goes i.e. veggie diet for dogs and cats.


I think the whole veggie diet thing needs more research. I always caution against using the same researcher and the same study as evidence of ANYTHING. Even if I were to use this particular research as evidence of veggie diet cons, I would like to see similar results by other researchers before making any sort of comment one way or the other. It is only by testing under the same conditions and ending up with the same results that we can be assured of reliability and validity.


Phil, if you're not busy, why don't you set something up re: this line of enquiry and let us know the results

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

Infuriating that I thought you were onto something with that article as far as evidence based research goes but, alas, it seems that was it for this researcher as far as this particular line of research goes i.e. veggie diet for dogs and cats.


I think the whole veggie diet thing needs more research. I always caution against using the same researcher and the same study as evidence of ANYTHING. Even if I were to use this particular research as evidence of veggie diet cons, I would like to see similar results by other researchers before making any sort of comment one way or the other. It is only by testing under the same conditions and ending up with the same results that we can be assured of reliability and validity.


Phil, if you're not busy, why don't you set something up re: this line of enquiry and let us know the results

Not only is that it for this particular researcher, that's pretty much it for this particular topic!

Unfortunately, I'm a corn geneticist, and I don't have any inside contacts in our veterinary college, so I can't set anything up. Not even feeding studies on the effect of corn in the diet, LOL!

[pstinard]

I'm going to park one more reference here for your perusal, Misty. It's not strictly about vegetarian diets, but it has LOTS of references to the nutritional evaluation of home-cooked meals:

Evaluation of recipes of home-prepared maintenance diets for dogs

[Russpilot]

While I will never be an advocate of full vegan diet for a pup, I will say that these guys do like a wide ranging variety of different foods. I have never had a pup who seemed to love green beans, cantelope, broccoli, and other things that I would not have imagined.
Feed your pup what feels right as long as you take care of his nutritional needs. It is obvious that you care or you would not have asked. It is a shame that for a while there the thread got a little hostile, but we all love and want to do best for all of the pups here so sometimes our hearts override our civility. People were just concerned and no one wants to see anyones Yorkie get less than the best life we can give them so sometimes things get heated. If you go with the full on vegan thing, please keep us all informed about how it is going and what if any side effects come from it.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Russpilot

While I will never be an advocate of full vegan diet for a pup, I will say that these guys do like a wide ranging variety of different foods. I have never had a pup who seemed to love green beans, cantelope, broccoli, and other things that I would not have imagined.
Feed your pup what feels right as long as you take care of his nutritional needs. It is obvious that you care or you would not have asked. It is a shame that for a while there the thread got a little hostile, but we all love and want to do best for all of the pups here so sometimes our hearts override our civility. People were just concerned and no one wants to see anyones Yorkie get less than the best life we can give them so sometimes things get heated. If you go with the full on vegan thing, please keep us all informed about how it is going and what if any side effects come from it.

The thread only got hostile because one member lashed out at me about a near fatality my dog almost had regarding another issue that had nothing to do with her. It also did not have anything to do with this thread regarding vegetarian diets. My dog lived to tell about his near fatal experience here on the forum for the benefit of others who might someday face a similar situation with any number of veterinary products on the market to which their animal might have a toxic exposure. I didn't share it for anyone's approval or disapproval. How I choose to take care of my animals is my decision and mine alone.

I fed my dog a vegan diet for 5 years and she thrived on it. She's going to be 15 in three months. That is a very long life, and a good life, and a vegan diet for those five years kept her going when she had ripped through many other sources of proteins due to severe allergies and food intolerances. Egg is a very superior source of protein for dogs, even more so than meat. Many who are vegetarians or who otherwise have an ethical concern w/ meats are OK w/ eggs. The OP can do an egg diet and be doing a lot better than most people here who are promoting meat diets.

[MrSYorkie]

Just change their diet slowly, maybe only 20% every month from their previous dog food. I personally have my two yorkies on vegan diets. They are happy and healthy.