Vegetarian diet

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Apologies are not wanted or needed here, as I don't think I could honestly accept or move on from her comments. I could say a lot in retaliation but I will be above this. I suppose Taylor never has never had an emergency or even the gumption to come back and share the experience to help others know what to do when time is of the essence. Maybe I'm just unlukcy?? I don't know. When I look here on YT, there are hundreds of similar stories about dog emergencies and sadly not everyone knows what to do. I'm not sure why Taylor thinks that an accidental, unpredictable, uncommon response to a medication that has been around for around 30 years with a solid safety record "bit me in the butt" -- my dog is ancient! He's OLDER THAN DIRT!!

When I try to share my experances I get shot down and told I'm a liar and a bad dog owner. We could go back to my post about the possum or any of the posts about bully sticks where I always share they have broke one of Callies teeth. I get that you know a lot but you can't just tell someone there opinion is wrong when I can list multiple reasources. I don't expect you to believe me I just expect respect for having an opinion and for having my own resources.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Yeah telling someone there opinion is wrong is not out of line whatever

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

You know when other people post and are told there opinion is wrong you are right there to say everyone gets to have there opinion but not now. Whatever sorry to everyone for not getting to have my own opinion even when I have sources that can back it up just like everyone else. Sorry that this place is so unfair and one sided! I am sorry that when I feel attacked and treated poorly I strike back. I'm sorry I am just a moron and no nothing.

Cathy I am sorry I struck out at you but you hurt my feelings telling me my opinion was wrong multiple times. It's very hurtful and made me feel like an idiot and I feel like you take little hits at me when you can and I have tried to just ignore it and let it go but this was the straw that broke the camels back.

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

When I try to share my experances I get shot down and told I'm a liar and a bad dog owner. We could go back to my post about the possum or any of the posts about bully sticks where I always share they have broke one of Callies teeth. I get that you know a lot but you can't just tell someone there opinion is wrong when I can list multiple reasources. I don't expect you to believe me I just expect respect for having an opinion and for having my own resources.

I didn't "make" you feel anything - your feelings are your own. You were defiant about my warnings about bully sticks and teeth, yet I never said that you got "bit in the butt" when Callie cracked a tooth the way you had the audacity to say to me about a reaction my ELDERLY AILING DOG had to a VERY SAFE tick collar. I don't care for the validity of your "resources" about vegetarian diets. If you feel "stupid" that's your problem.


I am trying to help the OP who wants to feed a vegetarian diet to her puppy. She can do so safely if she has the right resources, none of which you provided.


A resource that I like, in addition to some mentioned by others here, is the website of ACVN veterinary nutritionist, Dr. Rebecca Remillard. In fact, I found this recent Q&A on the petdiets website by going to the "ask the nutritionist section" and typing in "vegetarian" into the search module:


QUESTION: I'm getting a new tcup poodle at 8 or 9 weeks old and would like to prepare a nutritionally balanced homemade diet for her. I am not very fond of meats not to mention raw meats! Is it possible to keep dogs on a vegetarian diet?

Answer: Yes, it is possible to feed a dog a totally vegetarian homemade or commercially produced pet food (canned or dry). There are a few commercial vegetarian pet foods available that have been shown to be complete and balanced according to actual AAFCO feeding trials. Please check that these foods are suitable for growth.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I didn't "make" you feel anything - your feelings are your own. You were defiant about my warnings about bully sticks and teeth, yet I never said that you got "bit in the butt" when Callie cracked a tooth the way you had the audacity to say to me about a reaction my ELDERLY AILING DOG had to a VERY SAFE tick collar. I don't care for the validity of your "resources" about vegetarian diets. If you feel "stupid" that's your problem.


I am trying to help the OP who wants to feed a vegetarian diet to her puppy. She can do so safely if she has the right resources, none of which you provided.


A resource that I like, in addition to some mentioned by others here, is the website of ACVN veterinary nutritionist, Dr. Rebecca Remillard. In fact, I found this recent Q&A on the petdiets website by going to the "ask the nutritionist section" and typing in "vegetarian" into the search module:


QUESTION: I'm getting a new tcup poodle at 8 or 9 weeks old and would like to prepare a nutritionally balanced homemade diet for her. I am not very fond of meats not to mention raw meats! Is it possible to keep dogs on a vegetarian diet?

Answer: Yes, it is possible to feed a dog a totally vegetarian homemade or commercially produced pet food (canned or dry). There are a few commercial vegetarian pet foods available that have been shown to be complete and balanced according to actual AAFCO feeding trials. Please check that these foods are suitable for growth.

Cathy at that time you hated me you picked on every little thing I did and sent me some nasty pms so I doubt anyone would listen to someone who did that. I also said I felt bad for ignoring everyone who told me so. Telling me my opinion was wrong when it is just as valid as yours was hurtful whether you want to believe it or not. I striked back out of anger I am sorry. You can either believe me or not because it is straight from my heart and trust me you have good friends I'm getting it from all sides.

[107barney]

To the Original Poster - I can see your thread is going off topic. Please feel free to send me a message privately.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

You know when other people post and are told there opinion is wrong you are right there to say everyone gets to have there opinion but not now. Whatever sorry to everyone for not getting to have my own opinion even when I have sources that can back it up just like everyone else. Sorry that this place is so unfair and one sided! I am sorry that when I feel attacked and treated poorly I strike back. I'm sorry I am just a moron and no nothing.

Cathy I am sorry I struck out at you but you hurt my feelings telling me my opinion was wrong multiple times. It's very hurtful and made me feel like an idiot and I feel like you take little hits at me when you can and I have tried to just ignore it and let it go but this was the straw that broke the camels back.

Taylor, you DID have your opinion and stated it several times now! So I don't think you're understanding. Yes, all opinions are welcome - *including* those who disagree with *yours* (like Cathy did). If Cathy's opinion is that your opinion is wrong, well, that's her opinion isn't it? It's fine to disagree with opinions and be on opposite sides of the fence on something - that has *always* been allowed here.

Since when is it against the rules here to say "I think you're wrong and here's why...."....?

Btw, saying "I'm sorry, but..." is not an apology - it just says "I'm sorry but it's your fault". Also, Cathy cannot "make" you feel anything, ever. Your feelings and reactions are up to you, not her.

I think you're taking something far too personally here, and I'm not sure why. It's you who purposely and vindictively targeted Cathy's poor kiddo with the aim of causing injury. It was very mean hearted and a colossally low blow.

Like all of us, I'm sure you have things going on in your life that are affecting you today - but we ALL do. It doesn't and shouldn't provide excuses to treat someone in this manner and to use an almost fatal experience with their dog against them.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

Well, I've scoured studies today and I have seen nothing which supports or challenges a veggie diet for dogs. Either my resources are limited or there is very limited research in this area. However, I have seen a LOT of studies which states that corn and barley is actually good for dogs and the meat ingredients in commercial dog food is thought to contribute to cancer as known carcinogens. I guess that is a topic for another thread...


So, OP, anyway..would like to thank you for opening up an avenue I had not considered past my views re: dogs as meat/plant eaters. It is unlikely that I will change Teddy's diet to a veggie diet only but I am now more aware of some of the issues re: commercial dog foods, etc.


You just never know what you're going to learn here, eh!

Hi Misty,

I found an article, but I can't get in online, at least in the U. S.:

A field study on the nutrition of vegetarian dogs and cats in Europe

Here are a few other articles that mention vegetarian diets for dogs and/or cats:

Unconventional Diets for Dogs and Cats

A meaty matter. Pet diet and the vegetarian?s dilemma

Carnivorous Cats, Vegetarian Dogs, and the Resolution of the Vegetarian's Dilemma

And of course there is Dr. Rebecca Remillard's magisterial article on alternative diets for dogs:

Handling Alternative Dietary Requests from Pet Owners

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Hi Misty,

I found an article, but I can't get in online, at least in the U. S.:

A field study on the nutrition of vegetarian dogs and cats in Europe

Here are a few other articles that mention vegetarian diets for dogs and/or cats:

Unconventional Diets for Dogs and Cats

A meaty matter. Pet diet and the vegetarian?s dilemma

Carnivorous Cats, Vegetarian Dogs, and the Resolution of the Vegetarian's Dilemma

And of course there is Dr. Rebecca Remillard's magisterial article on alternative diets for dogs:

Handling Alternative Dietary Requests from Pet Owners

A couple more scholarly articles on vegetarian diets for dogs:

Homemade Diets: Attributes, Pitfalls, and a Call for Action

Comparison of Effects of Vegetable Protein Diet and Animal Protein Diet on the Initiation of Anemia during Vigorous Physical Training (Sports Anemia) in Dogs and Rats

[pstinard]

Here's a pretty good link on vegetarian diets for dogs. It reviews one of the articles that I quoted above (E. Kienzle and R. Engelhard. A field study on the nutrition of vegetarian dogs and cats in Europe.)

vegetarian pet food for dogs and cats?

Overall, the website looks a little like a Dog Food Advisor for the U. K. I'll try to see if I can locate the qualifications and educational background of the website manager...

[TxVicki]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

No it is my opinion just like it is your opinion! Whatever Cathy you know everything! Just like with the flea and tick collar... Hmmm wait that ended up biting you in the butt! I'm done!

WOW is all I have to say about this. It is totally uncalled for. Good Grief, take a break.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by TxVicki

WOW is all I have to say about this. It is totally uncalled for. Good Grief, take a break.

Pretty sure I get that by now..... I said two different I'm sorry's what do you want from me blood?

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Here's a pretty good link on vegetarian diets for dogs. It reviews one of the articles that I quoted above (E. Kienzle and R. Engelhard. A field study on the nutrition of vegetarian dogs and cats in Europe.)

vegetarian pet food for dogs and cats?

Overall, the website looks a little like a Dog Food Advisor for the U. K. I'll try to see if I can locate the qualifications and educational background of the website manager...

Here is the abstract, IN SPANISH, of the article "A field study on the nutrition of vegetarian dogs and cats in Europe":

¿Perros y Gatos Vegetarianos? Estudio Científico

Although it's in Spanish, it translates almost perfectly to English if you run it through Google translate. Here is the result:

Field study on vegetarian nutrition in dogs and cats in Europe

Engelhard, Radka, Ellen Kienzie, Radka Engelhard
University of Munich

ABSTRACT

This paper presents the results of interviews with owners who feed their dogs and cats with a vegetarian diet.

The study consisted of fifty four dog owners with a total of 86 dogs and five cats owners with 8 cats.

The owners provided information on the medical history of their pets. In a standardized questionnaire, these pet owners were asked to state their reasons for choosing a vegetarian diet and to provide a detailed description of their pet's diet.

Subsequently, the nutritional requirements were calculated for sixty-six adult dogs (11% lacto - ovo-vegetarian, 47% lacto-vegetarian, vegan 29% and 13% semivegetarian), 8 vegan puppies from a single litter, and for all 8 cats.

Pets were examined in their homes, and in most cases, blood and urine samples of animals were taken.

Moreover twelve brands of complete commercial food for vegetarian pets were investigated.

1. For most participants, the motivation to feed their pets a vegan diet came from religious and / or ethical conviction that humans don't have the "right to kill animals for food." Another reason was the concern that modern methods of meat production poses risks to the health of their animals.

2. Protein intake was insufficient for over half of the dogs studied and in many cases, the animals had a low rate of absorption of amino acids they contain. However, of those tested, all parameters for the plasma protein content (total protein, albumin and urea) were within the normal range for pets.


3 Typical errors in all nutritional homemade diets investigated in the study were found. Calcium needs were not met in sixty-two percent of the dogs, also for phosphorus, which was substandard about half of the dogs, This resulted in a Ca / P-ratio imbalance. In addition, seventy-three percent of the dogs had an insufficient intake of sodium.

4. In many cases, the supply of trace elements was insufficient. A large number of plasma samples also showed an insufficient amount of iron, copper, zinc and iodine, although there were no differences between the intake and content of plasma.

5. Of the vitamin contents measured, vitamin D was most often below the recommendations, especially for the vegan diet. Again, a reduced content of plasma 25-0H-Vitamin D is common, but here there was no direct correspondence with the intake of vitamin D calculated. Fifty-six percent of dogs showed an intake of vitamin B12 below the recommendations. Furthermore, the amount of pantothenic acid was often marginal.

6. Although some diets were unbalanced, no clinical problems were found in adult dogs.

7. At eight weeks, vegan pups weighed about half the normal for dogs of this age. The relationship between protein and energy of digestible raw protein 9.9 [g] / DE [W was also lower than the recommendations for older dogs .. In addition, their diet had insufficient iodine content. Other nutrients that were lacking were sufficiently provided by supplements.

8. In addition to the eight fed vegan mode (5 owners) cats who participated in the study, several other cat owners reported that attempts to feed their animals vegetarian diet failed due to problems of acceptance by the cats.

9. The protein intake for cats is was not very far below the requirements, although the quantity of amino acids they contain is often inadequate. None of the cats in the study were given enough taurine, although taurine-containing products were used. As was found with the dogs, minerals and trace element deficiencies were found, as well as vitamin D and B12 were found in the diets of cats. In some cases, the cats received too much vitamin D3. Vitamin A intake was deficient in all cases; and except in two cases, the cats had insufficient amounts of arachidonic acid.

10. One of the cats showed signs of atrophy of the retina and two showed reduction in the frequency of the estrous cycle.

11. The mineral and vitamin content of commercial foods prepared for vegetarian animals often do not provide a balanced diet for the nutritional needs of dogs. Only two of the twelve products that were analyzed can be recommended without reservation, while in two others, minor deficiencies were found. Always in the case of any home made diet for pets, vegetarian recipes must be carefully balanced. Owners should be informed about the use of supplements for cats and dogs. These diets are only acceptable providing that cats as well as dogs have their specific nutritional needs and food preferences taken into account; if not, this raises animal welfare issues.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Here is the abstract, IN SPANISH, of the article "A field study on the nutrition of vegetarian dogs and cats in Europe":

¿Perros y Gatos Vegetarianos? Estudio Científico

Although it's in Spanish, it translates almost perfectly to English if you run it through Google translate. Here is the result:

Field study on vegetarian nutrition in dogs and cats in Europe

Engelhard, Radka, Ellen Kienzie, Radka Engelhard
University of Munich

ABSTRACT

This paper presents the results of interviews with owners who feed their dogs and cats with a vegetarian diet.

The study consisted of fifty four dog owners with a total of 86 dogs and five cats owners with 8 cats.

The owners provided information on the medical history of their pets. In a standardized questionnaire, these pet owners were asked to state their reasons for choosing a vegetarian diet and to provide a detailed description of their pet's diet.

Subsequently, the nutritional requirements were calculated for sixty-six adult dogs (11% lacto - ovo-vegetarian, 47% lacto-vegetarian, vegan 29% and 13% semivegetarian), 8 vegan puppies from a single litter, and for all 8 cats.

Pets were examined in their homes, and in most cases, blood and urine samples of animals were taken.

Moreover twelve brands of complete commercial food for vegetarian pets were investigated.

1. For most participants, the motivation to feed their pets a vegan diet came from religious and / or ethical conviction that humans don't have the "right to kill animals for food." Another reason was the concern that modern methods of meat production poses risks to the health of their animals.

2. Protein intake was insufficient for over half of the dogs studied and in many cases, the animals had a low rate of absorption of amino acids they contain. However, of those tested, all parameters for the plasma protein content (total protein, albumin and urea) were within the normal range for pets.


3 Typical errors in all nutritional homemade diets investigated in the study were found. Calcium needs were not met in sixty-two percent of the dogs, also for phosphorus, which was substandard about half of the dogs, This resulted in a Ca / P-ratio imbalance. In addition, seventy-three percent of the dogs had an insufficient intake of sodium.

4. In many cases, the supply of trace elements was insufficient. A large number of plasma samples also showed an insufficient amount of iron, copper, zinc and iodine, although there were no differences between the intake and content of plasma.

5. Of the vitamin contents measured, vitamin D was most often below the recommendations, especially for the vegan diet. Again, a reduced content of plasma 25-0H-Vitamin D is common, but here there was no direct correspondence with the intake of vitamin D calculated. Fifty-six percent of dogs showed an intake of vitamin B12 below the recommendations. Furthermore, the amount of pantothenic acid was often marginal.

6. Although some diets were unbalanced, no clinical problems were found in adult dogs.

7. At eight weeks, vegan pups weighed about half the normal for dogs of this age. The relationship between protein and energy of digestible raw protein 9.9 [g] / DE [W was also lower than the recommendations for older dogs .. In addition, their diet had insufficient iodine content. Other nutrients that were lacking were sufficiently provided by supplements.

8. In addition to the eight fed vegan mode (5 owners) cats who participated in the study, several other cat owners reported that attempts to feed their animals vegetarian diet failed due to problems of acceptance by the cats.

9. The protein intake for cats is was not very far below the requirements, although the quantity of amino acids they contain is often inadequate. None of the cats in the study were given enough taurine, although taurine-containing products were used. As was found with the dogs, minerals and trace element deficiencies were found, as well as vitamin D and B12 were found in the diets of cats. In some cases, the cats received too much vitamin D3. Vitamin A intake was deficient in all cases; and except in two cases, the cats had insufficient amounts of arachidonic acid.

10. One of the cats showed signs of atrophy of the retina and two showed reduction in the frequency of the estrous cycle.

11. The mineral and vitamin content of commercial foods prepared for vegetarian animals often do not provide a balanced diet for the nutritional needs of dogs. Only two of the twelve products that were analyzed can be recommended without reservation, while in two others, minor deficiencies were found. Always in the case of any home made diet for pets, vegetarian recipes must be carefully balanced. Owners should be informed about the use of supplements for cats and dogs. These diets are only acceptable providing that cats as well as dogs have their specific nutritional needs and food preferences taken into account; if not, this raises animal welfare issues.

As far as feeding dogs a vegetarian diet goes, the take home lesson from this study is that although some of the diets were nutritionally unbalanced, the ADULT dogs did not show any adverse effects. HOWEVER, the puppies fed a vegan diet were half the normal weight at 8 weeks of age. This shows the critical importance of making sure that the vegetarian diet is nutritionally balanced, especially if you are feeding a puppy.

[ColesMommy01]

So would you say it would be more beneficial to feed a high grade kibble til about 1 year(for growth and development) then switch to a vegan diet with the assistance of a vet nutritionist? Or just do vegan "cold turkey"? It seems that adult cats/dogs may be less accepting of the diet change than a newly weaned puppy/kitten. As a pescatarian I tried to do home cooked raw for my dogs, but I already feel gross handling meat for my husband/child's meals so I've been with pre made freeze dried raw and it works perfectly since I can't imagine the nuggets being an animal. It's a chore in itself finding a food that all the pups will tolerate as it is.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by ColesMommy01

So would you say it would be more beneficial to feed a high grade kibble til about 1 year(for growth and development) then switch to a vegan diet with the assistance of a vet nutritionist? Or just do vegan "cold turkey"? It seems that adult cats/dogs may be less accepting of the diet change than a newly weaned puppy/kitten. As a pescatarian I tried to do home cooked raw for my dogs, but I already feel gross handling meat for my husband/child's meals so I've been with pre made freeze dried raw and it works perfectly since I can't imagine the nuggets being an animal. It's a chore in itself finding a food that all the pups will tolerate as it is.

Personally, I think it would be better to feed a high grade kibble until about one year of age for optimal growth and development, and then switch to a vegan diet with the assistance of a vet nutritionist after that. But, I wouldn't say that it's impossible to feed a nutritionally balanced vegan diet to a growing puppy--it just requires greater care.

You should never change a dog food cold turkey--always transition into it by gradually mixing in more of the new diet over time. That is especially critical for puppies.

[SirTeddykins]

Thanks for all of that info, Phil! I was having a deleterious day, yesterday. Hubby was snoring and kept me up all night and I am awaiting an answer re: my PhD placement. It's making me a wreck!


I think I will stick to a meat diet for my dog for the initial reason I stated which is that I do not believe that dogs should be denied meat on the basis of human ethics BUT I have learned so much in just a couple of days re: additives in kibble food, etc. Not particular to the brand I use, which is Acana, but I believe all manufactured food is at risk for quality control issues and ingredient considerations are not always 100% because these considerations are made by humans who are not infallible.


I can't thank the OP enough for asking the question which prompted my own questions and for everyone's opinions/advice/experience. I really do love YT for these reasons! Thanks again for the info! I shall have a look later on today!