Fromm vs Nature's Variety vs Orijen

[107barney]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Well, yes and no. Beaks and hair are not digestible, and pass though the dog's body much like fiber does. There are ten essential amino that dogs need in their diet (see https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/dog-c...your-dog-needs). If your dog's protein source includes these amino acids, then the dog will get by on less total protein overall, and it will be less stress on the kidneys and liver. Low quality protein that doesn't contain these essential amino acids is simply wasted effort for the dog to digest. But if you're feeding your dog high quantities of protein, it doesn't matter if it is all high quality protein, it's still more of a stress on the system--the excess protein is wasted. ALL proteins, both high and low quality, produce nitrogenous waste that has to be filtered by the kidneys. My point is that a high protein diet is problematic because it's not needed, and it stresses the system. A regular recommended level of high quality protein is healthier than high levels of protein, regardless of quality. So long as your dog is getting the nutrients it needs for good health, adding more doesn't make it better--it either goes to waste, or it is stressful on the liver and kidneys. I'm just putting that out there and moving on...

Exactly. My dog has both liver and kidney disease. She eats 25% protein, 14% fat and 10% fiber. That is not a high carb diet. It's a moderate protein restriction with a more severe phosphorous restriction. About to turn 15 here and prefect blood work and kidneys still holding with a normal creatinine. It's all about who is formulating the food. I'm just not ok with lay people doing it, even for a young dog with no medical problems.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Well, yes and no. Beaks and hair are not digestible, and pass though the dog's body much like fiber does. There are ten essential amino that dogs need in their diet (see https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/dog-c...your-dog-needs). If your dog's protein source includes these amino acids, then the dog will get by on less total protein overall, and it will be less stress on the kidneys and liver. Low quality protein that doesn't contain these essential amino acids is simply wasted effort for the dog to digest. But if you're feeding your dog high quantities of protein, it doesn't matter if it is all high quality protein, it's still more of a stress on the system--the excess protein is wasted. ALL proteins, both high and low quality, produce nitrogenous waste that has to be filtered by the kidneys. My point is that a high protein diet is problematic because it's not needed, and it stresses the system. A regular recommended level of high quality protein is healthier than high levels of protein, regardless of quality. So long as your dog is getting the nutrients it needs for good health, adding more doesn't make it better--it either goes to waste, or it is stressful on the liver and kidneys. I'm just putting that out there and moving on...

When you say high protein, what is your number that means high? I disagree that a high quality protein is a stress on the system for a healthy dog. I'm not suggesting 100% protein, but there is a lot of new information out there that suggests at least 30% protein, instead of the common 20-25% found in some famous dog foods. The Best Dog Food - What it's Like & How to Find it | petMD | petMD. So when I say high protein, I just mean the new recommended levels that many vets are suggesting.

[ironmike86]

If your making homemade and getting protein from these meats I wouldn't worry. Dog food high protein maybe different. Kibble isn't the same quality...

[ironmike86]

I feed kibble..but to me its a processed food. Just like human food imo processed foods are garbage. I don't care how much science goes into it. Getting your nutrition from Natural foods is better. And maybe supplement that if needed. That being said I've never dealt with kidney or liver ailments and really don't know how it would affect a dog. But processed if the lowest form of foods imo

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

When you say high protein, what is your number that means high? I disagree that a high quality protein is a stress on the system for a healthy dog. I'm not suggesting 100% protein, but there is a lot of new information out there that suggests at least 30% protein, instead of the common 20-25% found in some famous dog foods. The Best Dog Food - What it's Like & How to Find it | petMD | petMD. So when I say high protein, I just mean the new recommended levels that many vets are suggesting.

I think that 30% is still okay for most dogs. When I think of excessively high protein, I think of 40% or higher. Here are some recommendations from Drs. Foster and Smith: Dog Food FAQs: Protein For some circumstances, 30% is recommended.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Okay, high protein may be harmless for most dogs, but is it necessary or desirable? I'll just throw out one last thing (from The Dangers of High Protein Dog Foods | petMD), which is staffed by veterinarians and veterinarian nutritionists:

Is Excessive Protein in Dog Food Bad for My Pet?


Protein is a calorie dense nutrient and many of the high protein diets are extremely high in calories and can quickly lead to weight gain. With over 50% of dogs in the U.S. considered overweight or obese, dog owners need to be aware of where those extra calories are hiding. If a dog has kidney or liver issues consuming too much protein can increase the workload on these organs and upset the balance of nutrients leading to exacerbation of disease.

Rather than look for a dog food that contains excessive levels of protein you should find one that is specifically formulated for your dog’s lifestyle, life stage, and size. A working sled dog, for example, will have significantly different nutrient and caloric requirements than the average pet dog that ventures outside for a few walks a day and spends the rest of the time lounging. These two dogs should not be fed the same diet.

Puppies, meanwhile, require more protein than adult dogs because their bodies are busy growing. Among breeds of puppies there are different requirements for nutrients as well. For instance large breed puppies like Labrador retrievers need a much different diet than a Yorkie for optimal growth. Feeding large breed puppies something that is too high in protein may make them put on weight too quickly causing abnormal joint development and making them more prone to issues like arthritis in the future.

The safest diets are those that have been developed by pet food companies that invest in scientific research, consult with veterinary nutritionists, and perform feeding trials to develop their diets. This will provide a pet food that is properly balanced without any excess nutrients that are unnecessary and in some cases harmful for your dog.

These kinds of articles don't mean much to me bc I could go out and find basically the exact same article w/ the title "Is Excessive Carb in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" and "Is Excessive Fat in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" or "Is Excessive Fish Oil in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" and so on -- it's whatever current nutrient is "in vogue" to write about, so they don't really hold weight with me (nor do vets writing about nutrition, lol ). Dog foods are generally very well balanced for, well, dogs...so unless a particular dog has an illness, dog food is unlikely to actually damage them...any more so than our usually very unbalanced human diets do any real, measurable damage to us.

Carbs are metabolized into fat much easier and faster than longer-chain proteins. So again, like I always say -- I'd much rather have a higher protein diet for both human and pets than a higher carb diet. That's my belief and that's what I believe works for me and my dogs.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

These kinds of articles don't mean much to me bc I could go out and find basically the exact same article w/ the title "Is Excessive Carb in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" and "Is Excessive Fat in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" or "Is Excessive Fish Oil in Dog Food Bad for my Pet?" and so on -- it's whatever current nutrient is "in vogue" to write about, so they don't really hold weight with me (nor do vets writing about nutrition, lol ). Dog foods are generally very well balanced for, well, dogs...so unless a particular dog has an illness, dog food is unlikely to actually damage them...any more so than our usually very unbalanced human diets do any real, measurable damage to us.

Carbs are metabolized into fat much easier and faster than longer-chain proteins. So again, like I always say -- I'd much rather have a higher protein diet for both human and pets than a higher carb diet. That's my belief and that's what I believe works for me and my dogs.

The statement I bolded is definitely not true from a scientific standpoint. I'd rather follow the advice of a veterinary nutritionist, myself. And if I had a dog that is overweight, I'd put it on a diet (reduce food portions, but ensure that the dog is getting all of its nutritional needs met). Extra protein isn't a weight loss solution.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by pstinard

The statement I bolded is definitely not true from a scientific standpoint. I'd rather follow the advice of a veterinary nutritionist, myself. And if I had a dog that is overweight, I'd put it on a diet (reduce food portions, but ensure that the dog is getting all of its nutritional needs met). Extra protein isn't a weight loss solution.

I just read through this thread and all of the information that you shared. I'm hoping that if others read through the thread they will pick up on your veterinary based links to help make decisions regarding this issue. It's always nice to discuss topics while giving our own personal choices and opinions. But the adds bonus of being able to back them up with information shared by the experts (vets) is a most.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I just read through this thread and all of the information that you shared. I'm hoping that if others read through the thread they will pick up on your veterinary based links to help make decisions regarding this issue. It's always nice to discuss topics while giving our own personal choices and opinions. But the adds bonus of being able to back them up with information shared by the experts (vets) is a most.

Just in case you didn't notice, the link I posted stating that 30% protein is a minimum is from the exact same source as the link pstinard posted asking about excessive protein in dog food. The Best Dog Food - What it's Like & How to Find it | petMD | petMD Obviously, if anything is "excessive" it bad, otherwise, it's not excessive. There's a lot of good information out there and much of what we know in terms of nutrition can be learned from studies in human nutrition. Nutritional information is changing all the time, and much of the information is shared across species.

[Nancy1999]

By the way, Here’s another paper on protein in the same approved source. Link: http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/e...diet?page=show

In Focusing on Protein in the Diet, the author states,
.

. . grains provide mostly carbohydrates and only limited amino acid (protein) profiles. Extra carbohydrate intake, above the immediate needs of the dog (which occurs often with grain-based diets) prompts internal enzyme factors to store that extra carbohydrate (sugar) as fat.

Give that same dog extra protein and it is excreted through the kidneys and NOT stored as fat. Knowing this, what do you think would make a better "weight loss diet" for a dog ... one with grain as the main ingredient or one with a protein-rich meat source as the main ingredient?
Ahhhhhh ... I know what you're thinking! Too much protein! Kidney damage! Well, guess what? The very early research that pointed a finger at protein as being a cause of kidney failure in dogs wasn't even done on dogs! It was done on rats fed unnatural diets for a rodent -- diets high in protein. (Were we tinkering with Nature during these “tests”?) Rats have difficulty excreting excess protein in their diets because they are essentially plant eaters, not meat eaters.

Dogs are quite able to tolerate diets with protein levels higher than 30 percent on a dry weight basis. Dogs are meat eaters; that's how Nature made them! Rats are not. So some of the early research on rats was assumed to be true for dogs ... and the myth of "too much protein in a dog's diet causes kidney damage" was started. And just like any seemingly valid rumor or assertion, it derived a life of its own and is only recently being accepted as untrue.

Here is just one of many references that recently have appeared asserting the lack of data indicating that reducing the protein level in a food helps to protect the kidneys:

"...restriction of protein intake does not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal function. Considering these (research) findings, the authors do not recommend reduction of dietary protein in dogs with renal disease or reduced renal function in order to achieve renoprotective effects."
-Kirk's Veterinary Therapy XIII, Small Animal Practice, page 861, written by Finco, Brown, Barsanti and Bartges

They do recommend, though, that once a Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN) level reaches 75, which is very elevated, that some restriction of protein intake be considered for beneficial effects unrelated to kidney function dynamics. These authors point out that phosphorus blood levels can play a major role in the health status of dogs with compromised kidney function. . .




So what does that mean for the older dog? It means that you should not restrict feeding high quality protein to older dogs just because they are older. There is even some valid research that indicates older dogs may need a higher percentage of protein in their diets than they required during middle age. This shouldn’t be a surprise to us because dogs evolved through the ages as meat eaters. The grain-based diets for dogs did not even exist until seventy years ago when we humans demanded the convenience, simplicity and economy of dog food in a bag.

The bottom line is this, and it is based on fact -- protein intake does not cause kidney damage in healthy dogs or cats of any age. So whatever you choose as “the best” diet for your dog, make certain that an animal tissue source is listed first in the ingredient list.

Your older dog or cat should, if its kidney function is normal, receive the benefits of a high quality diet rich in animal-derived protein. For an excellent source of easily understood nutrition principles consider purchasing Canine and Feline Nutrition, by Case, Carey and Hirakawa.


Protein and Hyperactivity

Most dog caretakers at one time or another have heard this pronouncement: "High protein diets can make dogs hyper!"

I have searched the literature and contacted nutrition specialists regarding this myth and nowhere can I find any scientific study that proves this unfounded contention. There are no biochemical or nutritional factors that would even make this supposition appear to be credible.

Hyperactivity in dogs has numerous potential motivators, including genetic temperament predispositions, but a link between high levels of protein in a dog's diet and hyperactivity has yet to be proven.

I listened to a canine "expert" once tell me that Purina Hi Pro was causing hyperactivity in dogs and that he's seen it happen. I politely pointed out that Purina Hi Pro is in fact not high in protein at all ... and yet the myth goes on.

Feed your dog a high quality, meat-based diet and, just as nature set things up, your dog will thrive. Fear not the feeding of protein.

[Wylie's Mom]

For anyone confused about canine nutrition - this White Paper by Orijen has always always been one of my favorite pieces of education....it's very informative, well written, easy to read for a lay person or whatnot.

http://www.orijen.ie/acatalog/ORIJEN...er%2809%29.pdf

[Lovetodream88]

We have had several people come on this bored and were feeding ther dog Orijen and there dog was having bloody stools but when the switched foods the problems went away. I wish I could remember the thread where a poster said there vet said it was to much protien. That is why I don't suggest Orijen.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

We have had several people come on this bored and were feeding ther dog Orijen and there dog was having bloody stools but when the switched foods the problems went away. I wish I could remember the thread where a poster said there vet said it was to much protien. That is why I don't suggest Orijen.

Bloody stools can also be caused by doing a food switch too rapidly. When switching to a new food, it's best to do a very gradual switch, especially if it's a difference source of protein, or any other major differences.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

We have had several people come on this bored and were feeding ther dog Orijen and there dog was having bloody stools but when the switched foods the problems went away. I wish I could remember the thread where a poster said there vet said it was to much protien. That is why I don't suggest Orijen.

Well, I'd sure like know how a vet scientifically explained that protein causes bloody stools and how they had proof of that.

A bloody stool could be from a hundred things.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by pstinard

The statement I bolded is definitely not true from a scientific standpoint. I'd rather follow the advice of a veterinary nutritionist, myself. And if I had a dog that is overweight, I'd put it on a diet (reduce food portions, but ensure that the dog is getting all of its nutritional needs met). Extra protein isn't a weight loss solution.

And is that backed by fourple-blind, longitudinal, repeatable to infinity, published everywhere studies that are agree upon by every approved scientist on the planet??? Or, not? (I'm not actually asking the question here, I'm just being facetious)

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I just read through this thread and all of the information that you shared. I'm hoping that if others read through the thread they will pick up on your veterinary based links to help make decisions regarding this issue. It's always nice to discuss topics while giving our own personal choices and opinions. But the adds bonus of being able to back them up with information shared by the experts (vets) is a most.

Look pstinard and megansmomma, this board is a FORUM, and it's owned by Admin -- who encourages and welcomes all opinions here, even those and especially those whose are not necessarily scientifically based -- because perhaps it's from those angles that we sometimes have the best discussions (where, in fact, science does often come to the forefront).

YorkieTalk is NOT a scientific community, so please do not make passive aggressive attempts or comments that insinuate posting anything other than science is all that's acceptable or valid here at YT. We are receiving an extremely disappointing amount of private messages from members who no longer even want to post here at YT for fear of being attacked if they're not posting something they can also back up with science. They are also fearful of posting anything whatsoever regarding holistic or natural treatments. This is unacceptable and we will not foster a community such as that. If you prefer a community that allows and encourages only scientific discourse, then this community may not feel right to you...that's up for you to decide.

YT encourages all members to feel welcome to post opinions, articles, and discussions of all kinds. If anyone cannot be/feel open to other avenues of treatment, vet care, or discussion -- then you may refrain from posting on said subject. Thank you.