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I have three questions: 1. Where does Royal Canin buy the chicken meal? 2. Where does Royal Caniin buy its chicken by-product meal? 3. Where does Royal Canin buy all it's vitamins? I know RC is an international company and wonder what countries they purchase these things from. |
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Loving this! You forgot confrontational..... |
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Lots of great discussions buzzing around the Friday challenge. What we were looking for (and there were some really creative answers) was a car :) (I'll tell you more specifically below about it) .... but what kind of car? There were some really specific guesses out there, but what part of the ingredient deck made you think of that car? - The first ingredient is steel. But if all cars contain it, is it the same? Same quality? Same supplier? - Fiberglass is commonly found in boats and some types of new production cars. But what about re-builds, repairs or add ons? Speakers even contain fiberglass. - Most people would think rubber is tires. But do we know what type of tires? If we knew more about the car, we could assume what the tires might be, how much tread are left on them, if they are summer/winter (in the case up here in the North) - Leather is sometimes the giveaway. But is it? We commonly associate leather with luxury, but is this exclusively the case anymore? You can pretty much get leather as an option on any make and model. We know that the leather option on a compact will not be the same leather used on a luxury sports car. If leather appeared higher on the ingredient deck would we think it was a more expensive car because they could use more? Think about higher grade leather, is much thinner (and softer) than lower grade leather which is thicker, or even bonded leather, so it would weight more. Also sports cars tend to have 2 seats vs suvs that have 7 or more seats. Thinking beyond the ingredient deck, could you derive the performance, quality or safety of the car? What is the 0-60 mph time? Gas mileage? Front or side impact safety rating? Handling on turns or in rain? Options that you might need (4x4, A/C, Heating, Air bags)? Looking at the ingredient deck of a pet food would be very similar to buying a car based only on its ingredient deck. You do not have all the information required to know the quality, performance, safety or nutrients provided. All cars will get you from point A to point B (if they are in proper working order), same as all pet food will provide basic nutrition for survival based on the National Research Council (NRC) and in the US the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), but what do they do above and beyond to help the dog/cat thrive? Just looking at the ingredients won't tell you about that. The car that this ingredient deck is based on is actually the old shop car my husband worked on in high school for his entire senior year (maybe why he would never stop talking about it). It is a red 1994 Chevy Cavalier Z24 complete with bald summer tires, a front and rear bumper rebuild, torn leather seats (with a 2 inch layer of gum attached to it from all the students who sat in the driver seat) and a barely running, back firing, engine. It got the students from point A to point B and even helped some of them achieve their G1 (learners permit) but it definitely was not a luxury car. There is a lot more to what goes into a car than the name of the parts that go into it. Similarly with pet food. If you are relying on the ingredient label, you are missing a huge (and potentially the most important) aspect of the nutrition it offers. Did you know that there are courses offered to pet food manufacturers showing them how to “doctor” an ingredient label to make it more appealing to the consumer? And those courses don’t focus on actually making the food better, just on making the ingredient label LOOK better. If reading the ingredient label is important to you, understand what you are looking for when you are reading it. If you think meat should be the first ingredient, why do you think that? For the protein level? Then look to the protein level, look at the amino acid profile, look at the digestibility of it. Think about what the company is doing to ensure quality, safety and consistency. If a company is saying the food contains a specific protein source, what are they doing to ensure that that’s what the food contains? What if the supplier sends something different from what they order? What if it’s contaminated? What quality control measures do they have in place throughout the manufacturing process? I don’t expect to change everyone’s minds on the correct way to evaluate pet foods, but I do hope that you start asking more questions (and demanding more answers) about pet nutrition, beyond just the order of the ingredients on the label. The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) provides a list of questions you should ask a pet food manufacturer https://www.aahanet.org/library/nutritionalasmt.aspx (questions located about half way down page, under Diet Factors). :animal36 Ashley |
Brewer's Rice 1 Attachment(s) Hi everyone, Sorry it wouldn't let me copy the quote inside a quote (...inception quote...?) <Quote> Brewers' rice is the small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice. (AAFCO definition).[1] Brewers' rice is a processed rice product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground rice and brown rice thus reducing the quality Brewers' rice and second heads are one of the many byproducts that rice milling creates. Second heads are milled rice kernels that are one half to three quarters of the original kernel. Brewers' rice is a milled rice kernel that is one quarter to half the size of a full kernel. Second heads, depending on their quality are used to make rice flour. "If the quality of the second heads are poor, they will be sold for pet food or dairy feed. Brewers rice is sold for pet food and dairy feed exclusively."[3] and, despite having little nutritional value is found in approximately one third of pet food sold in the US. Brewers rice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia </Quote> The AAFCO definition is correct. Remember that AAFCO outlines nutrient guidelines for basic formula creation in the US. That shouldn't be confused with the part "Brewers' rice is a processed rice product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground rice and brown rice thus reducing the quality" which is not in AAFCO's guidelines or definition of Brewer's Rice. See attached picture from the AAFCO 2013 manual. Brewer's rice is an important part of RC's nutrition puzzle. As mentioned before, it provides a source of starch as well as protein. It is important to note that this type of starch is highly digestible. If you've ever had the stomach bug and had a hard time keeping things down, your doctor might have mentioned white rice. Why? Because it is highly digestible meaning less remains in your digestive tract (potentially complicating your GI upset more) and more is utilized by the body. When applied to pet food, it is an excellent carbohydrate and protein source because of its digestibility. Murray et al (2001) and the NRC "found that high-temperature extrusion of cereal grains (corn, potato, rice and sorghum) with high total starch content (>80 percent) increased the percentage of rapidly digestible starch and decreased the amount of resistant starch." If you are talking about the fact the hull has been removed, this is a source of insoluble fibre. Because for different formulas we want a different level of and balances of fibre (for hairballs, satiety support, digestive health, stool quality etc.) we use a combination of other ingredients that provide fibre, such as cellulose, pea fibre, psyllium, and even brown rice. This allows us to be more specific with the nutrient profiles. It is the nutrient profile of the diet as a whole that ultimately impacts the pet. If a specific ingredient is 'lacking' something, it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure that nutrition is provided by a different ingredient. Hope this helps :) Ashley |
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Any company that I use, I would expect them to answer these very basic questions. |
I like the car analogy, but I guess I am kind of confused. Because I get and understand what you're saying about how it depends on where the leather is coming from, the quality of the fiberglass, etc, and looking deeper into simply just saying 'leather' or just saying 'rubber'. But, to me, using brewer's rice, would be equivalent to using... old tires on a new car. I am bad at analogies, but that's my basic thought process, if you catch my drift. And using by-products as the ONLY source of meat protein could be compared to using cheaper and thinner leather vs. the newer, better quality leather that may be in an expensive sports car. It'll still work, and get the job done, but is it the best you get for your money? Yes, I am positive the food is scientifically sound, and well structured overall, and dogs aren't going to keel over dying (in fact, a lot may very well thrive) but to me, it's exactly like you said... "it will get you from point A to point B", but that's not ALL I want in a food. I want more than that. And I am not someone (not anymore, anyway, in the past I was moreso) who simply looks at an ingredient list and compares foods. I DO realize it's SO much more than that. I've seen a lot of foods spouted as being 'the best' which contain high ash, ingredient splitting, and lots of marketing tricks to make it seem like a good diet for canines when in actuality, it was likely an ingredient list purchased somewhere, and thrown together. I am just saying, in my non professional opinion, I think the old YT formula was fine. I never thought it was GREAT but I thought it was fine. The new formula, to me, is just a cheaper way to produce a "close enough" product that most Yorkies will likely still do "fine" on, but it's not worth the $$$ it's being sold for when there are other comparable products out there for way less money, with very similar research and nutrient analysis' available. I won't say I dislike or distrust RC, I think RC is a reputable company overall, I just personally wouldn't choose to feed most of the formulas. I do however like their RX foods the best out of any other options so if I was feeding RX, I'd likely choose RC. But I don't think I have any more questions at this point, so just weighing in my .02 cents one more time. I appreciate Ashley being here to answer any other questions others may have. |
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Btw, the mere fact that she is *here* is considered already promoting RC, so let's be honest about that fact here. The same would be said about ANY food rep here at YT. |
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Imust say that Ashley came into this with her armor on. She handles the occasional negativity quite well. The only thing I have to say in argument has to do with the antioxidant issue. Unless you have your pet (and yourself for that matter) on something like Protandim, no amount of any ingredient with antioxidants is going to have even the slightest relevant impact on your level of oxidative stress cells. It all sounds good and healthy , but the reality of it is that every day billions of these cells are created inside of us, and the amount that those well meaning antioxidants alone in your food and drinks kill off is so insignificant that it doesn't even count. Like a massive English Army overrunning 20 well meaning high spirited Scottish men in battle. While she is right about the value of antioxidants, it's kind of a moot point because it makes no difference. The scientist who discovered antioxidants and their importance is also the one who later discovered that he was wrong about their level of effectiveness . you can eat all the corn, bananas, kiwis etc... that you could possibly consume in a day and it wouldn't come close to having any effect on your oxidation levels in your blood. That subject could go a lot deeper but I just woke up and I'm not ready for big words yet. Good morning all! |
and I might add that my mention of Protandim was only as an example. I do not sell it and am not promoting it. It was the only antioxidant related thing that came to mind that IS effective in reducing and killing off oxidative stress cells the way that we think eating or drinking things containing antioxidants will. Did I say that right? I haven't had coffee yet. Too much science, too little caffeine. |
I think the answer is more complicated than just a few countries. I used to dispatch trucks to pick up ingredients for a well known dog food plant. Each week we picked up ingredients from different places due to prices. I also think that each country that produces RC, may independently order ingredients. However, I think that these questions need to be answered. We DO know there are countries and places that produce ingredients that we NEVER want our dogs to eat. My dogs and puppies are healthy and beautiful on RC, but I also want to make sure I continue getting great results. I'm not so food blind that I don't want what's best for my Yorkies. I have tried several other brands considered to be the best, but for one reason or another have always gone back to RC as they seem healthier, and happier. |
I should add that my mom, stepdad and little sister are adding a cockapoo puppy to the family this week (Thursday) and she has been eating RC Puppy. We will likely continue with that food for a while at least, so long as she is doing well on it. I have nothing against feeding it if it works well. Knowing my mom and step-dad though, they'll likely end up on a 'grocery store' brand, due to easy access, unless I continue ordering the food for them online. |
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Ashley is an intelligent woman, who means no harm and does not need me to defend her! I just hate to see innocent attempts to explane how different ingredients are utilized in a formula, any formula, in order to maximize effectiveness, rewarded by ambush. I am looking forward to a response to 107barney's question. Answers to that question, and explanations about hearts and gizzards actually being less expensive than muscle meats, and elimination of excess protein, etc. are of interest to many. Ashley also shared, "Did you know that there are courses offered to pet food manufacturers showing them how to “doctor” an ingredient label to make it more appealing to the consumer? And those courses don’t focus on actually making the food better, just on making the ingredient label LOOK better?" I can imagine there are people that were not aware of this, so this is actually helpful to some. You cant just read the words on an ingredient list without understanding what you are reading may be deceptive or misleading. Does RC purchase any of the ingredients used in their kibble, including vitamins and minerals, from China? Are the meat sources "prepared" in China, knowing how fearful we are of toxic products from China or are the products (whole chickens, beef products, fish products, etc) bought in bulk and then prepared at RC facility? (I know I had recently read where the USDA has apparently OK'd China to supply our chicken and chicken products for human consumption here in the USA.) I lived through that massive dog food recall years ago when everything around me seemed to be toxic....it was like walking through a mine field.....fortunately, RC came out on the other end of that disaster, unscathed, much to my relief! Thank you Ashley. Looking forward to your answers! |
Does RC purchase any of the ingredients used in their kibble, including vitamins and minerals, from China? Are the meat sources "prepared" in China, knowing how fearful we are of toxic products from China or are the products (whole chickens, beef products, fish products, etc) bought in bulk and then prepared at RC facility? (I know I had recently read where the USDA has apparently OK'd China to supply our chicken and chicken products for human consumption here in the USA.) I would like to know the same thing. That would be the only thing that could get me to switch up from RC right now. Not real big on China. Nothing good happens there either for or to most animals... |
guess I didn't do the whole quoting thing quite right in that last reply. Sorry. |
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Any protein that is not digested and absorbed by the body continues through the digestive tract into the stool. This is called undigested protein. The undigested protein can also be fed on by the bacteria in the colon, pulling excess water into the colon (leading to higher moisture stools), smelly stools and even gas. A less digestible source of protein will lead to more undigested protein winding up in the colon. When we are talking about protein utilization in the body, that depends on the specific dog's needs. Some dogs, like the Poodle, Yorkie, Shih Tzu, have increased needs for protein because of the high demands for coat formation. Other breeds, like the Boxer, German Shepherd, have higher demands for protein for lean muscle maintenance. Anything above and beyond the demands of protein by the body for tissue formation and bodily processes, will be used as energy. Grains are beautiful!! Don't turn your back on them for you or your pup :) Just because they weren't necessarily part of an ancestral diet for dogs, doesn't mean they can't be extremely beneficial. Look at half the foods we consume as humans! If we were only to consume foods our regions locally produced, how would we be? Fine! Populations in remote areas have learned to adapt to the food found in their close proximity (Think Inuit populations, remote Caribbean islands, or dessert habitats.) But in the new age, thanks to transportation and improved technologies, we can enjoy foods from all over the world! In Canada, we would never have the ability to consume beneficial foods such as avocados, bananas, acai berries etc. because of our climate, but exotic foods like that can enrich our diet with valuable nutrients to support our health... avocados are also extremely tasty and make everything taste better ;) yumm I do want to clarify one thing you mentioned. Chicken backs would actually be included in AAFCO’s definition of chicken, not by-products. In fact, backs and necks would make up the majority of chicken and chicken meal, as all the chicken breasts, thighs, wings, etc go to the human food chain. To obtain the quality and nutritional profile we are looking for, it takes more effort to find a supplier that meets our standards vs. just any supplier who happens to have the ingredients we are looking for. We sort and trim both our chicken meal and chicken by-product meal so that it contains the portions we are looking for, and nothing what we don't want. Portions we don't want include anything indigestible in its current form on the chicken (ie nails and feathers), fat (fat contributes to more weight which could make it appear higher on the ingredient deck, but something we want to carefully control the level of, therefore add Chicken Fat into the formula separately) and also the level of bone (this contributes to the ash content of the formula. Ash is a combination of minerals and elements. We choose to add these important nutrients in separately so we can precisely control their level. This is what is called low ash chicken meal and chicken by-product meal). To achieve all the quality and nutritional precision we are looking for, we have to source our chicken by-product meal from a supplier that can meet these demands for RC. Even still, once the ingredient reaches our plant(s), we do our own in-house tests and evaluations for quality (make sure there are no microorganisms or contaminants) and nutritional precision (using NIRS, near-infrared spectroscopy). This means that we still hold the power to reject truckloads of ingredients if they arrive at our plant and don't meet our standards (truck drivers are NOT happy with us at that point). And also I appreciate your honesty. I completely understand; I take what companies say with a grain of salt too (you should see when I walk into a health food store!). I rely on scientific evidence, that is my go-to source for information and my comfort. Any time I am unclear about information provided to me, I examine the all the science. Hope that helps! Ashley |
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Hello everyone! Suppliers are a great topic of interest when it comes to ... well, ANYTHING for that matter! Royal Canin sources ingredients locally wherever possible, which means the supplier of specific ingredients will be different for each manufacturing facility. As I am a nutritionist, and don’t work in the supply chain department, I don’t know the specific supplier of every ingredient. We have associates whose jobs are dedicated to sourcing, validating, and maintaining our suppliers. What I can tell you is that every supplier we use must go through a strict validation process before we incorporated them into our process. This involves a dedicated team flying to the supplier's site, evaluating their facility, their animals/birds and also collecting initial samples. These samples are then sent to our Americas Regional Lab (here in Guelph) where they are tested for quality, safety and nutritional parameters. But it doesn't stop there. Why? At any time the ingredient they send you could be different from the initial sample they provided you. This is why every single delivery of ingredients to every single manufacturing facility must go through a series of tests before it’s added to our inventory. Yes that means 100% of ingredients are tested before being used in any RC Health Nutrition formula. We also have extensive traceability. This enables us to trace back all detailed information, from the temperature and conditions the kibble was cooked in, the ingredients that were used, the results from the tests that were performed on each ingredient all the way back to the individual supplier of that ingredient who can also provide traceability on their part. In addition, retained samples of ingredients and finished product are held on site in a climate controlled room. Full traceability allows us to look at any specific details about a formula if there were were any questions regarding a specific bag of our formula from a consumer. China came up as a specific mention, and while none of our protein sources for our Canadian or US plants come from China, I would like to address the question briefly. Avoiding ingredients from a country does not guarantee safety. There was a devastating incident related to ingredients from China, but that doesn't make China the only place capable of producing or containing contaminated or otherwise dangerous ingredients or products. Think in Canada with the recent beef recall and in the US with a Texas ingredient supplier. Sub-quality or contaminated ingredients can come from anywhere, including our own NA backyard! Regardless of where ingredients come from, it is critical to have multiple steps in place to confirm their quality, digestibility, safety, and nutrition. NIRS (which I introduced in a previous post) is one the initial analysis completed on ingredient when entering our plant. It can perform analysis to predict specific nutrition values (such as protein, moisture, fat etc.) but also matching what you could consider a "fingerprint" of the sample to a validated global database for RC. The fingerprint would identify if anything with the structure of the ingredient is not correct, which could include a contaminate in the ingredient. Both analysis are confirmed at the Americas Regional Laboratory. If you have more specific supplier question, please feel free to phone in and discuss your questions with an RC associate for your country As I continue to encourage questions from everyone, I will stick to the area of my expertise, which is nutrition :). Have a great day! Ashley :animal36 |
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Sorry for missing your question... back on page 4 :S haha. If I have missed any questions, I apologize, but feel free to post them again for me to answer. MINI Adult is part of our Size Health Nutrition line of formulas. It is tailored specifically for the 9 - 22 lb small dog's needs. These small breeds can be some of the spunkiest and longest living of all the breeds, but also have some specific needs related to their size that can be supported through nutrition. These can include: - higher frequency of dental disease (polyphosphates to help reduce tartar formation) - skin and coat support (highly digestible protein, vitamin A, biotin, omega 6 fatty for coat gloss and EPA & DHA to help limit inflammation at the skin) - more energy requirement per pound than large/giant breeds Yorkshire Terrier is part of our Breed Health Nutrition line of formulas. These formulas take RC's knowledge and expertise to the next level. Formulation of these diets involves careful examination of veterinary cases, scientific literature and observation to complete our understanding of that specific breed's particularities, needs and requirements. Observation is completed both in our breeder network and at our kennel and cattery in France. Some of the things we examine with each specific breed include fat vs. lean muscle levels (think of a Newfie vs a Boxer), stool consistency (high or low in moisture), trans-epidermal water loss (TEWL, strength of skin barrier), urine RSS vales (likelihood of urolith formation) etc. One of my favourite things to talk about with the Breed formulas is our kibble science. Each kibble design is tailored to the breeds specific needs for kibble grasping (prehension), chewing/dental issues, rate of ingestion, and digestive sensitivities. We evaluate their facial morphology (ie. brachycephalic or mesocephalic) along with the way they grasp their kibble to design a kibble shape that is easy for them to pick up and chew. This is evaluated by filming the breed eating on a glass surface. Sometimes we experiment with different kibble shapes, sizes, textures or densities until we find the best design for that breed. For the YT specifically, the formula addresses: - the very high prevalence of dental issues in YT through longitudinally extruded kibble (requires more force to break which applies more friction on the teeth to help scrape off plaque) and polyphosphates (calcium chelators/binders that help to capture it in the mouth before it forms tartar on the teeth) - skin and coat support for the YT's fine, long hair (highly digestible protein for coat formation,enhanced levels of vitamin A, biotin, omega 6 fatty for coat gloss and EPA & DHA to help limit inflammation at the skin along with the specialized PINCH complex of vitamins and an amino acid to strengthen the skin) - aging support for one of the longest living breeds (enhanced antioxidant complex to help limit free radical damage, EPA and DHA to help limit inflammation) - Highly palatable for a finicky appetite (kibble design to help ease grasping for the tiny, delicate jaw, natural flavours and aromas to help the YT enjoy eating their food) After formulation of every formula, we give it to our breeder network and owners for their feedback. Ultimately we want to make sure the performance we formulate our diets to have is actually visible in the dog. If anything is not up to our standards, we go back to the drawing board and adjust nutrient levels in the formula before asking them to evaluate it again. Overall, both formulas are appropriate for a YT, but the additional nutritional support for the YT based on their specific needs help to provide that more tailored nutrition to the breed. Hope this helps answer your question! Ashley :animal36 |
You say you are not as supplier and can't say where it came from, can you tell me, if you can find out if the chicken that is used in the USA come from the USA? Also, I asked specifically about the vitamins. Can you find out what country they come from? |
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Sorry, but as I mentioned I am not a supplier. It would be best for you to phone in and discuss your questions with an RC associate for your country. Thanks! Ashley |
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Carbohydrates Hi Everyone! We've touched briefly on carbohydrates throughout our posts on the forum. Challenge of the evening: Carbohydrates are considered non-essential for survival. What does that mean for the dog or cat? What is their role in pet food? Ashley :animal36 |
Is it possible to get the prescription diets in a small breed formula? Our senior Yorkies have trouble chewing large kibble. We tried hammering it but that doesn't work that well. We tried a coffee grinder on course setting but it comes out powder. The nut grinder has worked out the best so far. It would be so much easier if we could just buy it in a small breed size. Thanks |
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Some of our veterinary formulas are available in a small breed format. I think I remember you saying in a previous post you feed Hyperallergenic HP formula...? If yes, I did a quick check on the US RC website, and it appears there is a Hyperallergenic HP Small Breed formula in the US :) http://m.royalcanin.us/site/vetprodu...dprotein.html# If your vet does not regularly stock it in the clinic, they should be able to order the small breed format for your little guys. I would give them a call to check :animal-pa Ashley :animal36 |
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If you look through the AAHA questions, I have actually provided extremely detailed information for the specific question: "What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line?". The quality and control measures RC has set in place are to ensure that no matter where you source an ingredient from it is safe and precise. Again, I am here to help in my area of expertise, answering nutrition related questions. Ashley :animal36 |
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