Science Diet Dog Food.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by tem_sat

Please keep in mind, the text, Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, was written by the founder of Science Diet (Mark Morris Sr.) and his son (Mark Morris Jr.). That leads me to believe that it is impossible to avoid bias in that book supporting the products they are in business to sell and profit from.

Yep.

There is plenty of articles and research that discuss the canine diet but most of them are all going to be biased in some way or another. There are many different viewpoints and it's all a matter of choosing who you agree with for your own dog, I suppose.

I really like Orijen's White Paper on Canine Nutrition. But of course, that's going to be called biased, too. The thing I like about this though is that they, in the end, are not really promoting their own food but saying raw is the best. So that's kind of cool.
http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_paper.pdf

Downloads - 2007 Journal - Journals
Go to the Jan 2007 issue of JAHVMA, Steven Brown's article on page 9 re: ancestral canine diet.

Most scientific studies and clinical trials are all funded and backed up by big businesses.... Most scientific research is done by pet food companies, as is veterinary "nutritional education". Obviously they would not be interested in funding expensive research studies that could cause them losing revenue. To do such a study on the advantages and disadvantages of "high quality" dog kibble and raw diets would require the thousands of vets, pets, pet owners, and pets nationwide to come together. Who is going to fund this?

I just don't think feeding a dog a diet that has more carbs/grains than it does a meat source is the best option for most canines. It's been shown in many different studies done on wolves (again, another study, I'm sure it's biased in some way) that they do not eat the stomach contents of their larger prey items. They do sometimes eat the stomach contents of smaller prey items when they eat the entire carcass. I just personally don't feel that amount justifies feeding a canine more grains and carbs than meat.

One thing that is factual is that domesticated dogs are anatomically, physiologically, and genetically engineered 99.8% the same as a wolf. The .2% accounted for is size and appearance. That is scientifically proven.

I also want to point out again... that kibble is relatively new. Raw is NOT. (Again, I'm not advocating raw, per say. I don't feed it). But I think people think suddenly feeding their dogs raw food is some new fad but really kibble is a lot newer of a concept. What do you think people fed their dogs before kibble was invented? Raw food and homecooked. Dogs have been around much longer than kibble has and the fact they dogs still exist happily in our world, to me, means that something was happening right in the thousands of years before commercial pet food hit stores shelves.

I also want to add that I am NOT stating that are Yorkies ARE wolves. Dogs are domesticated and were selectively bred to WORK with us humans. They were made and bred for a specific REASON. However their digestive tract is that of their ancestors.

In the end, I don't really believe one diet is better than the other (for ALL dogs). But I think what works for one person won't work for another and the bottom line is we all (on this forum anyways) want what's best for our pets or we wouldn't even be sitting here discussing it.

[Ellie May]

First, the book is sitting right here and Morris does not appear to be the author. There are four board certified veterinary nutritionists listed on the cover as the authors and chief editors. There is a long list of contributors which include many veterinary specialists. Morris is one of the additional editors. It is a Morris publication, but Morris didn't write it. Science Diet is recommended for sick dogs, but so is Purina, Iams, Waltham. So obviously it's not just about feeding Science Diet. Actually, there is even a section explaining how to properly homecook. There is also a section with a Diamond contributor explaining how pet foods are made.

I have found nothing to indicate that the state of Michigan does any type of trial or nutrient analysis on my dog's food. AAFCO feeding trials are one way to assure that the food is at least acceptable to feed. I'm not saying that a feeding trial studies digestibility, but that what comes out when the dog is done eating will be paid attention to and that is a clue.

I won't feed my dog how a wolf eats just as I won't feed myself how humans used to eat (they ate raw meat too before fire). I don't have a problem going grain free for a dog, not at all. But tons and tons of dogs have lived many years eating a lot of corn. And also to be honest, a lot of the raw fed dogs on YT seem to have just as many medical issues as the rest and they have their fair share of GI upset. So based on observation alone, I can't agree that more meat and/or raw meat is what they need. More meat shouldn't hurt a healthy dog, but I don't see anything to indicate that it is necessary.

What I am saying is, everybody should feed what they want to feed, but there is no reason to hate SD.

[tem_sat]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

First, the book is sitting right here and Morris does not appear to be the author. There are four board certified veterinary nutritionists listed on the cover as the authors and chief editors. There is a long list of contributors which include many veterinary specialists. Morris is one of the additional editors. It is a Morris publication, but Morris didn't write it.

"Dr. Morris published widely and was a visiting lecturer in small animal clinical nutrition in the United States and internationally. During his career, he was invited to speak at more than 200 meetings around the world. Most notably, he is the co-author of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition through its fourth edition, which now has been translated into five languages. It is the standard textbook on clinical nutrition used to educate veterinarians throughout the world. Dr. Morris also contributed extensively to the AAFCO and NRC nutrient guidelines for both dog and cats."

See: Mark Morris, Jr

He passed away in 2007.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

First, the book is sitting right here and Morris does not appear to be the author. There are four board certified veterinary nutritionists listed on the cover as the authors and chief editors. There is a long list of contributors which include many veterinary specialists. Morris is one of the additional editors. It is a Morris publication, but Morris didn't write it. Science Diet is recommended for sick dogs, but so is Purina, Iams, Waltham. So obviously it's not just about feeding Science Diet. Actually, there is even a section explaining how to properly homecook. There is also a section with a Diamond contributor explaining how pet foods are made.

I have found nothing to indicate that the state of Michigan does any type of trial or nutrient analysis on my dog's food. AAFCO feeding trials are one way to assure that the food is at least acceptable to feed. I'm not saying that a feeding trial studies digestibility, but that what comes out when the dog is done eating will be paid attention to and that is a clue.

I won't feed my dog how a wolf eats just as I won't feed myself how humans used to eat (they ate raw meat too before fire). I don't have a problem going grain free for a dog, not at all. But tons and tons of dogs have lived many years eating a lot of corn. And also to be honest, a lot of the raw fed dogs on YT seem to have just as many medical issues as the rest and they have their fair share of GI upset. So based on observation alone, I can't agree that more meat and/or raw meat is what they need. More meat shouldn't hurt a healthy dog, but I don't see anything to indicate that it is necessary.

What I am saying is, everybody should feed what they want to feed, but there is no reason to hate SD.

Amen!

[107barney]

I think we can definitely all agree that we want the best for our pets. I think this sometimes makes us all a little nuts.

Some people don't trust their dog food so they keep changing brands from this holistic company to that holistic company and are never really satisfied. I sometimes ask myself why the owner even feeds dog food because they just are are not satisfied with the options available in the commercial food market. I wonder if it is a matter of time before that owner becomes a home cooker.

Then there are some people don't mind the mainstream dog food companies but they too are just not entirely trusting of their choice so they add things to the diet - a little meat here, a little veggie there..... and as long as they are not adding too much, other nutrients in the diet will not be thrown too far off (just my lay opinion). Personally, I'd add meat to a diet only if I also added bone and/or a calcium source to manage the Calcium/Phosphorous ratio which is critical.

Then we have the raw movement. I could not be comfortable with that approach for various reasons.

My view has always been that I cannot sort out which company is feeding my dog with my dog's best interest in mind, if in fact there is any company doing that. I made a decision early when my puppies were just babies to feed home cooked because I wanted to know what the ingredients were and where they came from and I wanted to prepare them myself in my kitchen under my own saftey and quality control standards. I still feel good about that decision which has worked for my dogs and my household.

Good luck to everyone with their feeding style, I sincerely wish good health for all of your pets.

[Ellie May]

He may have contributed to the book, but there were many others who also did.

I honestly don't care what anybody here feeds. I do have the same thoughts as Cathy though. If one is so satisfied with the holistic food they are feding, then why rotate brands.

Anyway, to each their own. Things to do today, so it's time to get off of YT. The furkids call.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by 107barney

I think we can definitely all agree that we want the best for our pets. I think this sometimes makes us all a little nuts.

Some people don't trust their dog food so they keep changing brands from this holistic company to that holistic company and are never really satisfied. I sometimes ask myself why the owner even feeds dog food because they just are are not satisfied with the options available in the commercial food market. I wonder if it is a matter of time before that owner becomes a home cooker.

Then there are some people don't mind the mainstream dog food companies but they too are just not entirely trusting of their choice so they add things to the diet - a little meat here, a little veggie there..... and as long as they are not adding too much, other nutrients in the diet will not be thrown too far off (just my lay opinion). Personally, I'd add meat to a diet only if I also added bone and/or a calcium source to manage the Calcium/Phosphorous ratio which is critical.

Then we have the raw movement. I could not be comfortable with that approach for various reasons.

My view has always been that I cannot sort out which company is feeding my dog with my dog's best interest in mind, if in fact there is any company doing that. I made a decision early when my puppies were just babies to feed home cooked because I wanted to know what the ingredients were and where they came from and I wanted to prepare them myself in my kitchen under my own saftey and quality control standards. I still feel good about that decision which has worked for my dogs and my household.

Good luck to everyone with their feeding style, I sincerely wish good health for all of your pets.

I definitely agree with this. Great post!

I was guilty of this in the past -- I'd be searching for that one perfect food and tried many different brands, etc, and finally realize I was worrying about it too much I also can remember reading on other forums about how TOTW was looked at just as an "ok" brand since it was made by Diamond so I was always scared off using but come to find out... it's one of the best kibbles that Jackson has had for HIM, it's worked very well for him so I am satisfied with my choice just like those who feed SD are with theirs. I feel confident that they have fixed most of their errors in the past and I feel comfortable with the particular brand of TOTW right now but I also realize nothing is ever 100% guaranteed.

I do feel satisfied with the different brands and formulas out there. I think it's wonderful we as pet owners have such great choices to pick from. And even though I feed kibble, I don't really think it's a "natural" way of eating for a canine but I still feed it anyways... mainly out of convenience.

To be honest, I really would love to homecook. I do think it may be the best option out there but I really don't have the time, energy, funds or resources to do it... plus I'm lazy. I don't even cook for myself, like honestly, hardly ever. Maybe one day I will decide to homecook.

I think every company is going to have issues, whether it be quality control, recalls, or whatever. There is never going to be a perfect company out there.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

If one is so satisfied with the holistic food they are feding, then why rotate brands.

I don't rotate *alot* but I do rotate. I don't do it because I'm not satisfied with one particular brand but mainly to switch proteins every now and then. Also because I don't believe dogs were meant to eat the same thing day in and day out. I like to expose him to different foods so if he, by chance, has to eat something else or does by accident, it usually won't bother him. Because I enjoy to see Jackson enjoying his meals... (and he's spoiled!! ) and because I like to experiment, lol... I can see little changes, such as a shinier coat, better breath, eye boogers and poop w/ different foods, thus why I say he's been doing best on TOTW lamb so far and it's been over 2 months now. *shrugs* It's probably not necessary... and I'm probably humanizing him a bit too much... but oh well!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I won't feed my dog how a wolf eats just as I won't feed myself how humans used to eat (they ate raw meat too before fire).

Point taken. I wouldn't eat raw meat either. I'm uncomfortable with it, which is one reason besides laziness that I don't feed it to my dog. However, our digestive systems are different than our "primitive man"... they were not big meat eaters. Primitive man had a digestive system with a longer digestive tract that was far better equipped to digest plant and vegetable matter. Back then, the appendix likely played a role in digestion -- a role it does not play today. So I think it's hard to compare the two.

Just to play devils advocate here... but there are people that do eat raw meat still. I think it's gross -- and wouldn't ever do it for myself. Also what about sushi, etc?

The Raw Meat Diet For Humans -- Man's Natural Diet -- The Raw Food Diet -- Karl Loren's Recommendations, including raw meat!

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I don't have a problem going grain free for a dog, not at all. But tons and tons of dogs have lived many years eating a lot of corn.

Totally. I don't think corn is like this evil vegetable that will kill all dogs or anything. I just think it's an unnecessary filler. Humans can't even digest it. Just like you say, more meat shouldn't hurt a healthy dog, but you think it's not necessary... I don't think corn is going to hurt a healthy dog either, but I certainly don't believe it's more necessary than meat.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

And also to be honest, a lot of the raw fed dogs on YT seem to have just as many medical issues as the rest and they have their fair share of GI upset. So based on observation alone, I can't agree that more meat and/or raw meat is what they need. More meat shouldn't hurt a healthy dog, but I don't see anything to indicate that it is necessary.

What I am saying is, everybody should feed what they want to feed, but there is no reason to hate SD.

I really don't see many raw feeders on YT at all. I believe far more feed kibble so it's hard to judge that.

I hope everyone didn't think I was totally hating SD. Actually, my last few posts weren't even directed towards SD but kibble in general. I definitely don't hate SD and I agree it has it's place in the dog food world. It's one of our many options for our pets these days and that is fantastic that is available to those who need it.

I think this was actually a really friendly debate lol.

[Taryn0405]

Originally Posted by Britster

I think this was actually a really friendly debate lol.

I know, I've been following this thread and was interested on how everyone stated their opinions and didn't get out of hand.

Bravo YTers!

[Teresa Ford]

I have enjoyed reading all the opinions and discussions of this thread. My vet breeds and shows dogs. She tends to recommend breed specific diets. Does anyone care to comment on Royal Canin 28 or other dog food brands ? Thanks

[Taryn0405]

Originally Posted by Teresa Ford

I have enjoyed reading all the opinions and discussions of this thread. My vet breeds and shows dogs. She tends to recommend breed specific diets. Does anyone care to comment on Royal Canin 28 or other dog food brands ? Thanks

My biggest issue was just getting Gizmo to eat his food in general. Thankfully, he's been uber geeked about Blue Buffalo puppy formula.

However, when I got him, the place had him on Royal Canin puppy and he ate it for about three days and then just wasn't interested. His coat wasn't as nice when he was on RC but, I think it just depends on each dog.

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by Teresa Ford

I have enjoyed reading all the opinions and discussions of this thread. My vet breeds and shows dogs. She tends to recommend breed specific diets. Does anyone care to comment on Royal Canin 28 or other dog food brands ? Thanks

This thread contains a lot of opinions, positive and negative, about RC: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...ne-insane.html

[Woogie Man]

I have no experience with Royal Canin. The only food I ever felt great about is Nature's Logic. I fed it to mine for a couple of years and only stopped using it when the shipping cost just got to be too much for me. If I could get it locally, I would still be using it.

It is on the high end as far as protein goes (38%) and some feel uncomfortable with that. I had no problem with it, but all mine are healthy, active dogs. Others may not have the same result, so I wouldn't 'recommend' it. I would say it's worth checking out if you're looking to make a switch, but some basic nutrition research should be done when making choices.

I mentioned earlier about The Dog Food Project as a good source of info. There's really a lot more info there than just comparing brands. The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?

Here's the Nature's Logic site if you're interested. Nature's Logic

*This is my opinion only and is in no way geared towards those whose dogs may have special dietary needs.*

[givemecouture]

I had no idea SD was a prescription diet...my mom fed our family dog Cisco this his entire life. He is currently 14 and still plays like a puppy

I think because I grew up knowing that that I have a bias for SD so I probably will feed my dog that but need to research other foods.

[hugz4all4]

Originally Posted by givemecouture

I had no idea SD was a prescription diet...my mom fed our family dog Cisco this his entire life. He is currently 14 and still plays like a puppy

I think because I grew up knowing that that I have a bias for SD so I probably will feed my dog that but need to research other foods.

Not all of SD food are prescription, actually most of the foods they carry arent. My dogs too LOVE SD foods and I have fed them on and off SD for a few years now, when they get tired of thier premium brands, which Im now feeding totw I will give them a bag or two of SD.. the only issue I have with feeding it is that my dogs get smelly ears and more eye boogers.