Conflicted over raw food diet and commercial

[kionini]

I've been reading about holistic diets for dogs and I'm so confused, my head is spinning. Dr. Karen Becker advocates raw feeding,

"If I were a pediatrician and a mother told me, "it's just too hard making healthy food everyday for my kid, I'm just going to feed Total cereal everyday, it's 100% nutritionally complete," we'd all feel sorry for her kid. I am a vet, and when people tell me "I've found a really good dry food, I think I'...ll feed it everyday for the rest of my pets life," why don't we feel equally sad?"

In some places feeding our pups garlic, rice, etc. is condemned. Yet, looking at some of the recipes here in YT forums, these ingredients are okay.

I've got to do something about my little ones. Nini is getting fat and Nicky hates kibble, he runs and hides when I take out the bag . Their vet says that the dangers of food poisoning with raw food are great, but Dr. Becker says it's ignorance, food companies pay for vet training, etc.

What I do know is that I grew up with pets. I never saw a bag of kibble in my house, my mom cooked all our dogs' meals, I don't remember any of our dogs ever being sick, and they died old. What gives? I don't know what to do and I'm getting desperate.

I hate having Nicky on drugs, it bothers me to no end, because I know there are side effects to every drug. There's a price to pay for every single drug we take, even an aspirin. I wait until I can't take the head-ache any more to take an aspirin, yet I'm giving Nicky medicine twice a day for stomach upset and I wonder if this can be taken care of naturally, no drugs
How many of you have gone 'green' with your fur-babies? Is it possible to do it right?

[107barney]

I've been cooking for my dogs since they were puppies. I do use some commercial food in conjunction with home cooked. I tried the raw and it just grossed me out. I was constantly feeling like I had to bleach the areas. I just did not care for raw. My dogs do great on Home cooked food. In fact, the only time they ever get sick is when they eat dog food.

[rachelanne820]

When you homecook, do you still feed the same thing every day? Also, where do you find the recipes?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by kionini

...yet I'm giving Nicky medicine twice a day for stomach upset and I wonder if this can be taken care of naturally, no drugs
How many of you have gone 'green' with your fur-babies? Is it possible to do it right?

What are Nicky's medical issues?
What do you mean by "gone green"?

I can only speak for me , but I don't feel there is really is a "right" or "wrong" way, per se, bc what is right for one dog, could be very wrong for another.

I can say, with a lot of confidence, that I see dogs on YT who thrive on kibble, canned, homecooked, or raw. Some do rotation diets too.

I have fed all of those diets above, and now feed raw (Primal brand).

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by kionini

I've been reading about holistic diets for dogs and I'm so confused, my head is spinning. Dr. Karen Becker advocates raw feeding,

"If I were a pediatrician and a mother told me, "it's just too hard making healthy food everyday for my kid, I'm just going to feed Total cereal everyday, it's 100% nutritionally complete," we'd all feel sorry for her kid. I am a vet, and when people tell me "I've found a really good dry food, I think I'...ll feed it everyday for the rest of my pets life," why don't we feel equally sad?"In some places feeding our pups garlic, rice, etc. is condemned. Yet, looking at some of the recipes here in YT forums, these ingredients are okay.

I've got to do something about my little ones. Nini is getting fat and Nicky hates kibble, he runs and hides when I take out the bag . Their vet says that the dangers of food poisoning with raw food are great, but Dr. Becker says it's ignorance, food companies pay for vet training, etc.

What I do know is that I grew up with pets. I never saw a bag of kibble in my house, my mom cooked all our dogs' meals, I don't remember any of our dogs ever being sick, and they died old. What gives? I don't know what to do and I'm getting desperate.

I hate having Nicky on drugs, it bothers me to no end, because I know there are side effects to every drug. There's a price to pay for every single drug we take, even an aspirin. I wait until I can't take the head-ache any more to take an aspirin, yet I'm giving Nicky medicine twice a day for stomach upset and I wonder if this can be taken care of naturally, no drugs
How many of you have gone 'green' with your fur-babies? Is it possible to do it right?

Considering the argument against feeding your dogs the same food every day, I think it's a weak one, first of all dogs, aren't humans, and a human's relationship with food is very complex; humans socialize with food and use food to show love. Food is a huge part of our lives. Dogs don't have the memory humans have, and aren't thinking of the meal, you made for them last Thursday, they live in the here and now, and definitely have food preferences, but will overlook them, and still love you. Let's not forget you can introduce a new food to a human, and they don't show signs of diarrhea, where dogs typically do. I don't trust any website that doesn't give the cons of the suggested food, and it's not credible to give the cons, and have a point-by-point argument why the disadvantage is completely nonsense.

The truth I believe is there is a disadvantage to EVERY food you choose, and you have to decide how important this disadvantage is to you. The disadvantage to me, with raw is that it is relatively new, and hasn't been clinically tested. Some dogs do very well on it for a short time, but how about long term, and could there be difference between how athletic sporting dogs handle raw and how more sedimentary dogs hand raw? We know from human studies there is a great deal of difference how the two groups handle high protein and high cholesterol. How about safety, companies have to be even more diligent with how they handle raw it and precautions they take. Will you be able to check recall lists diligently to know if your chosen food is having a problem? Kibble manufactures have problems too, but just because their food is cooked, it cuts down drastically the number of problems concerning safety. Sometimes the old fashioned way of making a list of pros and cons, and deciding what is best for you and your dog at this time is best way to decide, but keep an open mind for when you get new information. The most important thing to remember is that dogs do well on a variety of diets, and there is no one "best" food for all of them, you need to find a "good" food that works for you and your dog. I think sometimes we want the best, when good is good enough. Dogs with special needs or allergies have a tougher time, and that's where all these food choices we have becomes more important.

[107barney]

I do follow the same diet every day for my dogs. I make it in large batches and freeze it in ice cube trays so that I can just take out the cubes and defrost them. I calculate out their daily requirements so I know how many cubes each dog needs. When they get frozen, I pop them all out of the cube trays and put them into vaccum sealed bags and I take them out daily as I need them. I then add my supplements fresh at every meal. I never freeze or heat food with any supplements pre added. I do give them additional things like blueberries, bananas, other veggies as snacks but for the most part, their basic diet is the same. It has worked for me, I am much happier with home cooked than with commercial for my dogs, but I have used commercial diets in conjunction with home cooking (although that is coming to a screetching halt now that Barney has had two bouts of pancreatitis due to commerical food). My dogs have always thrived and this is true for Barney and Daisy who, despite their puppy mill beginnings and some congenital issues, barely look like they are almost 10. Can't say the same for Teddy , he is thriving too but he comes from a more distinguished pedigree (excuse us!) and a great breeder and he is so young that it's hard to draw conclusions regarding diet.

The choice to home cook or not is individual and has many factors to consider. There are plenty of dogs out there eating dog food who are living to ripe old ages and having few health problems.

As for home cooking, there are many ways to do it. If you decide to home cook, I will echo what other posters on YT have said - yes, you can find recipes but I'd get a diet formulated for your dog by a vet nutritionist so you know you're covering all of your particular dog's nutritional needs in terms of nutrients and in terms of calories and that your dog's medical history and current medical status are part of the analysis.

Good luck.

[bdb5853]

Do some research and searches on prey model raw. You will be enlightened.

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

The truth I believe is there is a disadvantage to EVERY food you choose, and you have to decide how important this disadvantage is to you. The disadvantage to me, with raw is that it is relatively new, and hasn't been clinically tested. Some dogs do very well on it for a short time, but how about long term, and could there be difference between how athletic sporting dogs handle raw and how more sedimentary dogs hand raw? We know from human studies there is a great deal of difference how the two groups handle high protein and high cholesterol. How about safety, companies have to be even more diligent with how they handle raw it and precautions they take. Will you be able to check recall lists diligently to know if your chosen food is having a problem? Kibble manufactures have problems too, but just because their food is cooked, it cuts down drastically the number of problems concerning safety.

Sometimes the old fashioned way of making a list of pros and cons, and deciding what is best for you and your dog at this time is best way to decide, but keep an open mind for when you get new information. The most important thing to remember is that dogs do well on a variety of diets, and there is no one "best" food for all of them, you need to find a "good" food that works for you and your dog. I think sometimes we want the best, when good is good enough. Dogs with special needs or allergies have a tougher time, and that's where all these food choices we have becomes more important.

Nancy, I agree with you that there are disadvantages to every diet, and particularly with raw diets when handled or fed improperly. Most long time raw feeders see no negative health impacts on either their dogs' or their own lives. Obviously because raw food is.. well, raw , there is an increased risk of bacterial infection. However, this risk is almost negligible to both dogs and humans if the owner is careful and takes the proper precautions. Dogs are designed to and are fully capable of handling the bacteria in raw meat. There is also the risk of quality control in pet food companies, but that is a risk you have to take with ANY company, raw or not. Cooking can kill some bacteria, making kibble at a lower risk of harboring food borne bacteria but after 2007, I have trouble trusting any commercial pet food, period. I would be willing to bet that more animals died during that salmonella outbreak than pets fed on a raw diet, ever. That is just a risk each individual pet owner will have to weigh for themselves.

I also want to address the claim that raw diets are relatively new. Raw diets are absolutely NOT new. First, raw diets have existed since the beginning of dogs since wolves in the wild eat raw meat. It is widely believed that raw diets are a fad that have just come about within the recent decades. This is untrue. Commercial pet foods have only been around for the past 100 year, making kibble relatively new. What were domesticated animals fed before the invention of kibble? Homecooked and raw diets. Dogs have been around much longer than kibble has and their successful existence means that they were doing something right in the thousands of years before commercial pet food. There have been many accounts of owners with parents or grandparents who fed their dogs raw that lived long, healthful lives. I don't know what you mean by relatively new, but Jack Lalanne, a fitness expert in the 50s, fed his dog raw!

YouTube - Jack Lalanne - The Dog Diet

There many not be any current scientific studies that prove that raw diets are beneficial, but that doesn't mean that there isn't scientific proof! Dogs are anatomically, physiologically, and genetically engineered to eat raw meat. That is scientifically proven. That combined with millions of years of evolution as well the physical evidence provided by the outstanding health of my dogs... well, I don't need much more proof than that! Most scientific research is done by pet food companies, as is veterinary "nutritional education". Clearly they would not be interested in funding expensive research studies that could cause detriment to their revenue. To do an extensive study on the advantages and disadvantages of raw diets would require the collaboration of thousands of vets, pets, pet owners, and pets nationwide. Who exactly has the funding to do this? Perhaps someday I'll be wealthy enough to conduct such a study but until then we're left with what we have.

I want to clarify that I am in no way saying that raw is a superior diet and will work for ALL dogs. I personally feel that my dogs thrive on raw and are receiving the best diet possible. Naturally, I want to share the benefits of this wonderful diet with others. I agree 100% with the statement that not every diet will work for every dog and that dogs can thrive on any diet whether it be raw, kibble, canned, or homecooked. It's all about finding what works best for your dog.

Just for some fun reading:

The world's oldest raw-fed dog, a 27 year old Australian cattle dog-bull terrier cross.
USATODAY.com - Outback mongrel could be oldest dog

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by kionini

How many of you have gone 'green' with your fur-babies? Is it possible to do it right?

As you can probably tell from my previous post, I am an avid raw feeder! We have been feeding raw since October with spectacular results. My dogs are more energetic, excited to eat their food, and are in wonderful health (confirmed by my vet).

If you are interested in learning about the raw diet, there is a thread in the YT Library with some helpful links.

I have also gained invaluable knowledge from this thread and this thread. The last one has a TON of links for further reading.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana

Nancy, I agree with you that there are disadvantages to every diet, and particularly with raw diets when handled or fed improperly. Most long time raw feeders see no negative health impacts on either their dogs' or their own lives. Obviously because raw food is.. well, raw , there is an increased risk of bacterial infection. However, this risk is almost negligible to both dogs and humans if the owner is careful and takes the proper precautions. Dogs are designed to and are fully capable of handling the bacteria in raw meat. There is also the risk of quality control in pet food companies, but that is a risk you have to take with ANY company, raw or not. I understand that cooking can kill some bacteria, making kibble at a lower risk of harboring food borne bacteria but after 2007, I have trouble trusting any commercial pet food, period. I would be willing to bet that more animals died during that salmonella outbreak than pets fed on a raw diet, ever. That is just a risk each individual pet owner will have to weigh for themselves.

I also want to address the claim that raw diets are relatively new. Raw diets are absolutely NOT new. First, raw diets have existed since the beginning of dogs since wolves in the wild eat raw meat. It is widely believed that raw diets are a fad that have just come about within the recent decades. This is untrue. Commercial pet foods have only been around for the past 100 years. I would argue that kibble is relatively new. What were domesticated animals fed before the invention of kibble? Homecooked and raw diets. There have been many accounts (granted anecdotal) of owners with parents or grandparents who fed their dogs raw that lived long, healthful lives. Dogs have been around much longer than kibble has. I don't know what you mean by relatively new, but Jack Lalanne, a fitness expert in the 50s, fed his dog raw! YouTube - Jack Lalanne - The Dog Diet

There many not be any current scientific studies that prove that raw diets are beneficial, but that doesn't mean that there isn't scientific proof! Dogs are anatomically, physiologically, and genetically engineered to eat raw meat. That is scientifically proven. That combined with millions of years of evolution as well the physical evidence provided by the outstanding health of my dogs... well, I don't need much more proof than that! Most scientific research is done by pet food companies, as is veterinary "nutritional education". Clearly they would not be interested in funding expensive research studies that could cause detriment to their revenue. To do an extensive study on the advantages and disadvantages of raw diets would require the collaboration of thousands of vets, pets, pet owners, and pets nationwide. Who exactly has the funding to do this? Perhaps someday I'll be wealthy enough to conduct such a study but until then we're left with what we have.

I want to clarify that I am in no way saying that raw is a superior diet and will work for ALL dogs. I personally feel that my dogs thrive on raw and are receiving the best diet possible. Naturally, I want to share the benefits of this wonderful diet with others. I agree 100% with the statement that not every diet will work for every dog and that dogs can thrive on any diet whether it be raw, kibble, canned, or homecooked. It's all about finding what works best for your dog.

Just for some fun reading:

The world's oldest raw-fed dog, a 27 year old Australian cattle dog-bull terrier cross.
USATODAY.com - Outback mongrel could be oldest dog

Didn't mean to imply eating raw was new, only that there is no scientific research to show it's long term safety, and yes I'm one of those people who believe in clinical tests and trials. There are several raw foods manufactures; in fact, my guess is more people feed manufactured raw, rather than real raw, especially here on YT. Please, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't feed raw, I'm only saying we don't know enough about it yet to satisfy me. My point is that there are pros and cons with every food choice, and I'm uncomfortable with anyone who suggests their are no cons to their food choice, I just think it means that we don't know enough about it yet. I was only suggesting to the OP, that there will be some realistic negatives to her food choice, and she will have to weigh the good with the bad, and come to a decision on what's right for her dog at this point in his life.

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Didn't mean to imply eating raw was new, only that there is no scientific research to show it's long term safety, and yes I'm one of those people who believe in clinical tests and trials. There are several raw foods manufactures; in fact, my guess is more people feed manufactured raw, rather than real raw, especially here on YT. Please, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't feed raw, I'm only saying we don't know enough about it yet to satisfy me. My point is that there are pros and cons with every food choice, and I'm uncomfortable with anyone who suggests their are no cons to their food choice, I just think it means that we don't know enough about it yet. I was only suggesting to the OP, that there will be some realistic negatives to her food choice, and she will have to weigh the good with the bad, and come to a decision on what's right for her dog at this point in his life.

From your post, it seems like you felt I was attacking you. I am so sorry if it came across that way, I was no way trying to argue with you. I just wanted to point out that there are some pretty great benefits to raw and I think sometimes it gets a bad rep from vets/pet food companies/pet owners, etc. I understand that the evidence out there isn't enough to convince some pet owners but we shouldn't let that get in the way of other pet owners being convinced. I too agree that there are negatives to any diet, particularly raw, but for me those negatives are far overshadowed by the positives. Sometimes my enthusiasm can be a little overzealous so I'm deeply sorry if I offended you.

[Sweet Apple]

The difference I see in my pups, since starting raw, about 10 months ago, is unbelievable...I was skeptical, at first...In fact, I didn't even understand, exactly, what this feeding raw was all about...I imagined a piece of chicken, greasin' up the floor, while my pup dragged in around the room, leaving salmonella all over the place...I finally learned about the pre-made, frozen pkgd. raw you buy at only the best pet stores...Before raw, Apple liked going for a walk, but she wasn't really energetic about it, and it wasn't that great, trying to drag her along for our 30 minute walk...After about a month, she began stepping it out, making it hard for me to keep up w/her, her coat got soooooooooooo shiny, and of course, the nice side effect of raw, smaller, firmer, less frequent and odor in the stools...Even 'though NV had a recall of their chicken products, which, btw, my kids had 3 or 4 bags of the recalled chicken, and never got sick, I'm still a believer in raw...I'm a bit more cautious, and have switched to Stella & Chewies, because of their hydrostatic pressure process to eliminate pathogens...It's still not heated, so nothing is altered in the food, except the elimination of pathogens...I'll still use Primal, as well, but they have limited proteins in my area...Hope my story gives you an insight of a raw food user...

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana

From your post, it seems like you felt I was attacking you. I am so sorry if it came across that way, I was no way trying to argue with you. I just wanted to point out that there are some pretty great benefits to raw and I think sometimes it gets a bad rep from vets/pet food companies/pet owners, etc. I understand that the evidence out there isn't enough to convince some pet owners but we shouldn't let that get in the way of other pet owners being convinced. I too agree that there are negatives to any diet, particularly raw, but for me those negatives are far overshadowed by the positives. Sometimes my enthusiasm can be a little overzealous so I'm deeply sorry if I offended you.

I will say I envy the fact that raw food eaters are so confident in their food choice, I'm not that confident about my food choice at all. My main point of the post was to try to reassure the OP that there may always be some doubts to her choice, finding the right food is no easy task. I always enjoy reading what you have to say, and it wasn't so much that you didn't state the cons, a lot of the websites I read don't state the cons, and when this isn't done, I don't feel like I'm getting a balanced argument.

[kjc]

I found this article to be very enlightening...

Common Myths About Pet Food and Nutrition at Only Natural Pet Store

[Sweet Apple]

Wow, just going over some of the posts, and I do think it is necessary to discuss how differently raw food needs to be handled, from kibble or canned...First of all, I wash my hands, when opening the pkg...Then I still don't touch it, but slide it out on a clean plate that has been washed in hot soapy water, and thorougly rinsed, as well...I cut it up w/a clean knife, also washed in hot soapy water...After I feed them, I wash all utensils, plates and knife in hot soapy water, for the next feeding...When I go to buy the frozen raw food, I take a cooler w/ice packs in it, just for the ride home...It's frozen, when I pick it up. and just as frozen, when it goes in my freezer...My vendor has a sub-zero freezer, and is most careful w/her raw products...That's why I like and trust her...Once I bought raw, from another vendor, that was so "stuck together", I could see it had not been kept at optimum temperature, and I took it back...I was never so careful, w/kibble, as I am w/raw...There's no room for any possiblity of exposing raw to bacteria, wrong temperature, or not thoroughly clean utensils...As I stated, Apple and Buzz had consumed 3 or 4 (3lb. bags) of the recalled organic chicken, w/no ill effects, whatsoever...Not to say there weren't other bags of this food w/salmonella in it, but the company claimed they'd found traces of salmonella in some of their chicken products, and pulled them all...I would hope that all vendors will advise their patrons of what is necessary, if they choose to feed raw...I, totally, believe, there is no room for error...