That's it! No more shots..

[mscat]

I am so sorry little Missy had a reaction to her vaccines Glad she is starting to feel better too.
My Suzi has to have her booster as well. In CA it is the law , the Rabies shot. This time she is suppose to get one that is good for 3 yrs. The other one, I think is for distemper. I hate vaccines too, and thankfully things have gone smoothly for Suzi. However , she does get very tired after the rabies one.
I have been keeping her inside , and have not updated her yet. NOt looking forward t o it, but, I know it has to be done. In CA dogs can't even get licenced by the city and tagged without the rabies shot.

[LilMissy]

Originally Posted by mscat

I am so sorry little Missy had a reaction to her vaccines Glad she is starting to feel better too.
My Suzi has to have her booster as well. In CA it is the law , the Rabies shot. This time she is suppose to get one that is good for 3 yrs. The other one, I think is for distemper. I hate vaccines too, and thankfully things have gone smoothly for Suzi. However , she does get very tired after the rabies one.
I have been keeping her inside , and have not updated her yet. NOt looking forward t o it, but, I know it has to be done. In CA dogs can't even get licenced by the city and tagged without the rabies shot.

I hope that everything goes smoothly for Suzi with her vaccines.

[KJLive]

Originally Posted by LilMissy

I just switched to this vet from my old one. They both do vaccinations exactly the same way. This vet was trying to shove a deworming pill in Missy's mouth just prior to her vaccination too. I had to physically cover Missy's mouth with my hand to get her to stop so that I could question her about it. After I explained to her that my dogs do not walk on the ground outdoors (they are in a stroller or carried in my arms), she agreed that the deworming was not necessary. I'm getting really frustrated with vets. This one is a step up from my last one (whom was considered "best in my area for the past 7 yrs in a row", and I've also tried 3 other vets in my area in the past 2 yrs (with my pug dog). I'm really not sure what to do now. I am concerned about Dora's spay in April. My last vet almost lost Missy during her surgery.

Oh my heavens! I feel for you! It's clear that you will have to be in charge of your dogs medical care. I'd be asking now what type of anesthesia she uses BEFORE the spay. I drilled my Vet like crazy before Sophie's spay. And it turned out not to be necessary. She answered every question w/o batting an eye and actually added more info. that I didn't even know to ask! LOL! I truly believe that many Vets don't understand the toy breed and their differences in medical care. Fortunately, my Vet specializes in small breeds and exotics. So those teeny tiny lizards? Yep, she operates on them too! I feel VERY comfortable anytime I take my dogs in their. They know my Biewers feet never touch ground. I do not give either of the Bordtella as I do not board my dogs. Even my groomer knows that neither of my dogs go in a kennel. I book their grooming appts. back to back. I take one, drop it off. 10 min before it's done my groomer calls. Till I get their that one is done and the next one gets dropped off. So I guess what I am saying is "stick to your guns. There is nothing wrong for speaking up on behalf of your dogs". Sounds as if you are very good Mommy and they are lucky to have you!

[tonyag9]

Awww I hope Missy is feeling better!! This scares me so much because Pixel is do for his 1 year boosters next week.

[nneessaa]

Hey, I know it is probably too late since you decided you aren't going to vaccinate but for others who read this thread and are vaccinating their dogs... if your vet doesn't offer separate vaccines FIND A DIFFERENT VET. I had to call like 6 different vets to find one that offered rabies, distemper, and parvo all separately.

From the research I've done I believe these three vaccines should be given as puppies (not sure of puppy schedule, though), at 1 year old, and then every 3-4 years after that. I wouldn't do them any sooner than two weeks apart (Scruffs got his 3 weeks to a month apart). If it is a really small dog I think there should be exceptions to vaccinating or not. I don't think any other vaccines are necessary. That is a lot of vaccines that the vet gave to her at once... I would think the vet would have thought of that. Have you considered finding a different vet? I'm not a fan of vets who over vaccinate.

[LilMissy]

Originally Posted by nneessaa

Hey, I know it is probably too late since you decided you aren't going to vaccinate but for others who read this thread and are vaccinating their dogs... if your vet doesn't offer separate vaccines FIND A DIFFERENT VET. I had to call like 6 different vets to find one that offered rabies, distemper, and parvo all separately.

From the research I've done I believe these three vaccines should be given as puppies (not sure of puppy schedule, though), at 1 year old, and then every 3-4 years after that. I wouldn't do them any sooner than two weeks apart (Scruffs got his 3 weeks to a month apart). If it is a really small dog I think there should be exceptions to vaccinating or not. I don't think any other vaccines are necessary. That is a lot of vaccines that the vet gave to her at once... I would think the vet would have thought of that. Have you considered finding a different vet? I'm not a fan of vets who over vaccinate.

I am going to titer in the future. Thankfully, I've got a whole year before I even need to think about this again.

[jmdt]

So sorry to hear that Missy isn't herself after those mean old shots!!! Give her a big hug from my crew. Poor baby!!!

[nneessaa]

Also, titers are not always accurate. They measure the amount of antibodies for that disease in the blood stream at the time the titer is taken. I am not sure but I believe the memory cells circulate through the blood stream and we learned in Physio that they are there for pretty much life. Memory cells remember the invader and are able to recognize it quicker than the immune system starting from scratch to try and fight it off. This is in humans, but I take it it is similar in dogs. If not, forgive my rambling. I don't think the titer measures the memory cells, but rather the antibodies which are the cells that bind specifically to the pathogen (aka disease the vaccine is trying to prevent) and destroy it. There are B and T cells that destroy the invader in different ways but I won't get into that. Pretty much, the memory cells activate a series of cells that end up killing the pathogen, which can happen in different ways.

Then again, what I've stated is what I learned through human immune systems, and like I said I am not sure if this works the same in dogs. I believe titers are useless since I don't think there is any way to measure the memory cells, since titers measure the antibodies in the blood AT THAT TIME. So they are completely useless unless the dog was recently exposed to the virus and their immune system was combating it (and the memory cells were making antibodies), thus the titer would come up that there are a lot of antibodies circulating in the blood.

Sorry if this makes no sense. I just compiled random information I had and have never considered why titers were pretty much useless. LOL I guess Physio did come in handy!

[LilMissy]

Dr Jean Dodd's recommends doing puppy boosters, one year booster, and titering every 3 years afterwards. This seems to be the best vaccination schedule I have found thus far. I've also seen it recommended numerous times by our "YT experts". Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol I feel this method is safer than vaccinating our pets every year, regardless of whether they still have their own immunity or not.

I'm still on the fence. I'm either going to titer, or not vaccinate anymore at all. I don't feel that my girls are at a very high risk because a) they never come into contact with other dogs b) their feet do not touch the ground outdoors. The reaction that Missy had today was not worth the peace of mind of getting them vaccinated. I just don't trust vaccines very much I guess. I definitely think that puppies need their vaccines, but the annual vaccines, I'm not so sure about.

[viviansnickers]

Hey girl!!! So sorry about Lil Missy!!!!!!! I actually skipped the corona this time around for Snick's 1 year. I'm glad I did.

Snick sends his hugs to Missy....and I'm sending my hugs to you. xoxoxoxoxox

Big Luvins....
Snick & Viv

[dwerten]

we see dr dodds for our titers and blood work and here is the info on titer validity - My demi tested low on a titer so we had the vaccine due to this but otherwise mine have been getting titers for years - keep in mind it says on all vaccinations - FOR HEALTHY DOGS ONLY

MORE ON VACCINE TITER TESTING

W. Jean Dodds, DVM
Hemopet
938 Stanford Street
Santa Monica, CA 90403
310-828-4804; Fax 310-828-8251
Hemopet/Hemolife, HEMOPET a full animal blood bank, Diagnostic Laboratory, Adoption and Consultation
hemopet@hotmail.com

Some veterinarians have challenged the validity of using vaccine titer testing to assess the immunologic status of animals against the common, clinically important infectious diseases.

With all due respect, this represents a misunderstanding of what has been called the “fallacy of titer testing”, because research has shown that once an animal’s titer stabilizes it is likely to remain constant for many years. Properly immunized animals have sterilizing immunity that not only prevents clinical disease but also prevents infection, and only the presence of antibody can prevent infection. As stated by eminent expert Dr. Ronald Schultz in discussing the value of vaccine titer testing, these tests “show that an animal with a positive test has sterilizing immunity and should be protected from infection. If that animal were vaccinated it would not respond with a significant increase in antibody titer, but may develop a hypersensitivity to vaccine components (e.g. fetal bovine serum). Furthermore, the animal doesn't need to be revaccinated and should not be revaccinated since the vaccine could cause an adverse reaction (hypersensitivity disorder). You should avoid vaccinating animals that are already protected. It is often said that the antibody level detected is “only a snapshot in time". That's simply not true; it is more a “motion picture that plays for years".

Furthermore, protection as indicated by a positive titer result is not likely to suddenly drop-off unless an animal develops a medical problem such as cancer or receives high or prolonged doses of immunosuppressive drugs. Viral vaccines prompt an immune response that lasts much longer than that elicited by classic antigen. Lack of distinction between the two kinds of responses may be why practitioners think titers can suddenly disappear.

But, not all vaccines produce sterilizing immunity. Those that do include: distemper virus, adenovirus, and parvovirus in the dog, and panleukopenia virus in the cat. Examples of vaccines that produced non-sterile immunity would be leptospirosis, bordetella, rabies virus, herpesvirus and calicivirus --- the latter two being upper respiratory viruses of cats. While non-sterile immunity may not protect the animal from infection, it should keep the infection from progressing to severe clinical disease.

Therefore, interpreting titers correctly depends upon the disease in question. Some titers must reach a certain level to indicate immunity, but with other agents like those that produce sterile immunity, the presence of any measurable antibody shows protection. The positive titer test result is fairly straightforward, but a negative titer test result is more difficult to interpret, because a negative titer is not the same thing as a zero titer and it doesn't necessarily mean that animal is unprotected. A negative result usually means the titer has failed to reach the threshold of providing sterile immunity. This is an important distinction, because for the clinically important distemper and parvovirus diseases of dogs, and panleukopenia of cats, a negative or zero antibody titer indicates that the animal is not protected against canine parvovirus and may not be protected against canine distemper virus or feline panleukopenia virus.

Finally, what does more than a decade of experience with vaccine titer testing reveal ? Published studies in refereed journals show that 90-98% of dogs and cats that have been properly vaccinated develop good measurable antibody titers to the infectious agent measured. So, in contrast to the concerns of some practitioners, using vaccine titer testing as a means to assess vaccine-induced protection will likely result in the animal avoiding needless and unwise booster vaccinations.

SIDE BAR
Reasons for Vaccine Titer Testing: *
1. To determine that animal is protected (suggested by a positive test result).
2. To identify a susceptible animal (suggested by a negative test result).
3. To determine whether an individual animal has responded to a vaccine.
4. To determine whether an individual vaccine is effectively immunizing animals.

* from: Schultz RD, Ford RB, Olsen J, Scott F. Titer testing and vaccination: a new look at traditional practices. Vet Med, 97: 1-13, 2002 (insert).

References

Dodds WJ. Vaccination protocols for dogs predisposed to vaccine reactions. J Am An Hosp Assoc 38: 1-4, 2001.
Lappin MR, Andrews J, Simpson D, et al. Use of serologic tests to predict resistance to feline herpesvirus 1, feline calicivirus, and feline parvovirus infection in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 220: 38-42, 2002.
Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to five viral antigens in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 55-60, 2004.
Mouzin DE, Lorenzen M J, Haworth, et al. Duration of serologic response to three viral antigens in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 224: 61-66, 2004.
Paul MA (chair) et al. Report of the AAHA Canine Vaccine Task Force: 2003 canine vaccine guidelines, recommendations, and supporting literature. AAHA, April 2003, 28 pp.
Tizard I, Ni Y. Use of serologic testing to assess immune status of companion animals. J Am Vet Med Assoc 213: 54-60, 1998.
Twark L, Dodds WJ. Clinical application of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody titers for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 217:1021-1024, 2000.

[nneessaa]

Yes, I think you have a good idea of what to do. Definitely not every year. I think you are right that they are not at a high risk for the diseases. I think they should be fine for at least 3, even 5 years. Usually vaccines are good for life but there are always exceptions so that's why people continue to vaccinate. Again, titers don't measure the memory cells only the antibodies...

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by nneessaa

Yes, I think you have a good idea of what to do. Definitely not every year. I think you are right that they are not at a high risk for the diseases. I think they should be fine for at least 3, even 5 years. Usually vaccines are good for life but there are always exceptions so that's why people continue to vaccinate. Again, titers don't measure the memory cells only the antibodies...

I will take my chances and have been titering with jean dodds for 5 years now - once a year i have blood work and titers just to be safe and so far they have enough in their system but if a dog has health issues vaccinations can make them worse as it is for healthy dogs only.

[nneessaa]

I read this book a year or so ago (it was 200 pages!). I seem to have lost it since I rebooted my computer since it got a virus... but anyways it had a lot of good information about vaccines, feeding your dog, etc. 11 Things You Must Do RIGHT To Keep Your Dog Healthy and Happy

I would suggest it to anyone interested. It did have a lot of information about titers and I haven't read it in a long time but it said something along the lines of even if the titer has a ratio that the vet would most likely vaccinate, 99% of the time the dog is already protected, they just didn't have antibodies circulating at that time. I also don't want to guarantee that everything I said was correct since I haven't done a lot of research I just know what I've read on this forum and on that eBook. I think it is correct, though.

[LilMissy]

Originally Posted by dwerten

I will take my chances and have been titering with jean dodds for 5 years now - once a year i have blood work and titers just to be safe and so far they have enough in their system but if a dog has health issues vaccinations can make them worse as it is for healthy dogs only.

Thank you for posting and making me feel even better about making the decision to titer. Can I ask, did you follow Dr Jean Dodd's vaccine schedule of 3 puppy shots and the 1 year booster?