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-   -   Question about bile acid tests!!! (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yorkie-health-diet/193109-question-about-bile-acid-tests.html)

MyTrixie143 01-13-2010 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2955163)
Not so sure.....since she was very specific in her seminar about the importance of the method. Not sure if it was because there had been screw ups or something that was part of her new protocol.
This seems to be very true!!

The first vet I took Hershey to, knew about the test but hadn't preformed it much. His test results came out high. Took him to three other vets who knew more about it and wouldn't you know it, his results were alright.:rolleyes:

MauiGirl 01-13-2010 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by katy-yorkie (Post 2936024)
If this is true, my vet did the BAT wrong for Buster. I was told to feed him a fatty meal in between samples and to fast him for 12 hours before. Both the pre and post numbers were high. But since I fed him a fatty meal in between no wonder his post numbers were so high. I don't know what to think or do now. I think I need to change vets....
This is the way it is done, and it is somewhat recently that Dr. Centers is now saying that fasting is not necessary. I don't think it will hurt the results to fast, it isn't considered necessary. Do the pre test, feed them and wait 2 hrs. and do post test. You don't need to change vets.

Ladymom 01-13-2010 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauiGirl (Post 2955500)
This is the way it is done, and it is somewhat recently that Dr. Centers is now saying that fasting is not necessary. I don't think it will hurt the results to fast, it isn't considered necessary. Do the pre test, feed them and wait 2 hrs. and do post test. You don't need to change vets.
Actually, it's been at least three years that Dr. Center has stated that a 12 hour fast is not necessary, but that misinformation is still out there.

This is from 2/10/07:

Dogs DO NOTneed to be fasted for 12-hours to conduct this test. The important issue is to test BEFORE and 2-Hrs after FEEDING to fully evaluate the dogs ability to extract bile acids from the portal circulation.

PSVA and MVD Research Summary

dwerten 01-14-2010 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladymom (Post 2955516)
Actually, it's been at least three years that Dr. Center has stated that a 12 hour fast is not necessary, but that misinformation is still out there.

This is from 2/10/07:

Dogs DO NOTneed to be fasted for 12-hours to conduct this test. The important issue is to test BEFORE and 2-Hrs after FEEDING to fully evaluate the dogs ability to extract bile acids from the portal circulation.

PSVA and MVD Research Summary
well in humans we fast for our blood work for 12 hrs and i personally believe if you are doing this test you are doing with a full cbc panel on the pre bile acid test so i think it is important to do the 12 hr fast so your cbc panel is accurate and you are getting the bile acid at the same time then 2hrs after food that is how i would do it as most people are getting a full blood panel done at the same time and just like in humans dogs should always have a 12 hr fast blood draw to not have any food in system to mess up the blood test and get accurate results

dwerten 01-14-2010 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyTrixie143 (Post 2955426)
This seems to be very true!!

The first vet I took Hershey to, knew about the test but hadn't preformed it much. His test results came out high. Took him to three other vets who knew more about it and wouldn't you know it, his results were alright.:rolleyes:
this is probably because if you do not do the second blood draw exactly 2hrs on the dog you will not get accurate results

dwerten 01-14-2010 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elle (Post 2955361)
I feel that Centers & Tobias are the best hope we have at finding a genetic marker. I do feel Mardelin is accurate. What I don't understand and perhaps someone can give further explaining; how can one get a true reading without a before and after test?

Center & Tobias are indeed the pioneers. I agree that it sounds ignorant to say one doctor is better than another. However, it's an area of small concern to most practitioners. There are many that treat it. We'd love some other specialists that are in the same league.
many vets like ours did do the post only just to see if it is an issue as that is the more important number then if it comes in high they do the pre and post like we had done. I personally was not happy as dd had to go back and why i say do it all at once with a cbc panel with the pre so only 2 blood draws as i was not happy about 3 blood draws with my dog as she gets very stressed when giving blood and ended up with a bruised neck but this was before i knew about all this stuff

Mardelin 01-14-2010 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2955945)
well in humans we fast for our blood work for 12 hrs and i personally believe if you are doing this test you are doing with a full cbc panel on the pre bile acid test so i think it is important to do the 12 hr fast so your cbc panel is accurate and you are getting the bile acid at the same time then 2hrs after food that is how i would do it as most people are getting a full blood panel done at the same time and just like in humans dogs should always have a 12 hr fast blood draw to not have any food in system to mess up the blood test and get accurate results
Dr. Centers new protocol does not advocate the 12 hour fasting.

dwerten 01-14-2010 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2955957)
Dr. Centers new protocol does not advocate the 12 hour fasting.
yeah well food can adjust a blood test so if it were mine i would always 12 hr fast as i get cbc panels always on 12 hr fast and how i knew dex has high triglycerides on a 12 fast thus predisposing him to pancreatitis as he has high fat content in blood. I personally still think it is wise to do 12 hr fast like us humans do on blood work then that way there is no question in my mind that food played a roll in adjusting any blood work that is my personal opinion so if it were mine i would fast for 12 hrs even if not recommended. I think she is mentioning it as some dogs cannot fast 12 hrs without hypoglycemic issues as they are too tiny and for those situations she is saying it is ok to not do the 12 fast but if your dog can handle the 12 fast i would do it

dwerten 01-14-2010 08:19 AM
my other thought is dogs digest food much faster than humans as their digestive tract is smaller and why they can tolerate raw based diets so this could be why she does not think it necessary as the food is out of system much faster but again if it were mine i would want to make sure nothing was in that system for 12 hrs prior also many dogs will not eat at vets office and some people are not close to home so getting a dog to eat when they are really hungry may help as that test has to be done post right on the dot at 2hrs or it will be inaccurate

Mardelin 01-14-2010 08:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2955964)
yeah well food can adjust a blood test so if it were mine i would always 12 hr fast as i get cbc panels always on 12 hr fast and how i knew dex has high triglycerides on a 12 fast thus predisposing him to pancreatitis as he has high fat content in blood. I personally still think it is wise to do 12 hr fast like us humans do on blood work then that way there is no question in my mind that food played a roll in adjusting any blood work that is my personal opinion so if it were mine i would fast for 12 hrs even if not recommended. I think she is mentioning it as some dogs cannot fast 12 hrs without hypoglycemic issues as they are too tiny and for those situations she is saying it is ok to not do the 12 fast but if your dog can handle the 12 fast i would do it
The choice is yours. I would tend to go with Dr. Center's protocol......and it was changed over 3 years ago. One of the reasons she changed it was due to wee ones having hyperglycemic episodes because of the fasting procedure....she conducted more research and testing and conducted that the fasting did not affect the BAT. She found she got more accurate reading when you followed the pups normal feeding schedule.

I will say breeders that attended her Seminar at the Roving National walked away with a better understanding as to why Dr. Centers conducted the BATs the way she did. Hopefully more Kennel Clubs look into obtaining her and Dr. Tobias for more seminars.

dwerten 01-14-2010 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2955968)
The choice is yours. I would tend to go with Dr. Center's protocol......and it was changed over 3 years ago. One of the reasons she changed it was due to wee ones having hyperglycemic episodes because of the fasting procedure....she conducted more research and testing and conducted that the fasting did not affect the BAT. She found she got more accurate reading when you followed the pups normal feeding schedule.

I will say breeders that attended her Seminar at the Roving National walked away with a better understanding as to why Dr. Centers conducted the BATs the way she did. Hopefully more Kennel Clubs look into obtaining her and Dr. Tobias for more seminars.
yeah that is what i stated it was for dogs that are tiny and have hypoglycemic issues as they cannot fast 12 hrs - i think that is why maybe we see some of these dogs with pre numbers higher than post then as my girl had pre numbers of 3 and post was higher so that would make more sense - i personally would only do it that way if my dog was hypoglycemic and a tiny

Mardelin 01-14-2010 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2955981)
yeah that is what i stated it was for dogs that are tiny and have hypoglycemic issues as they cannot fast 12 hrs - i think that is why maybe we see some of these dogs with pre numbers higher than post then as my girl had pre numbers of 3 and post was higher so that would make more sense - i personally would only do it that way if my dog was hypoglycemic and a tiny
The reason pre numbers are higher than post is due to individual differences in the rate of stomach emptying and intestinal motility.

I would highly recommend to those that are testing their pups to follow Dr. Center's & Specialist's recommendation for BAT testing. They are the experts in the field.

Another bit of info, test dogs when they are young. Dogs greater than 4 years of age can have other liver problems that will affect the Bile Acid Test.

dwerten 01-14-2010 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2955996)
The reason pre numbers are higher than post is due to individual differences in the rate of stomach emptying and intestinal motility.

I would highly recommend to those that are testing their pups to follow Dr. Center's & Specialist's recommendation for BAT testing. They are the experts in the field.

Another bit of info, test dogs when they are young. Dogs greater than 4 years of age can have other liver problems that will affect the Bile Acid Test.
so if differences in stomach emptying another reason i think to have an empty stomach at time of doing it

the whole idea of having a pre is to determine how the liver is functioning without any food in system then the post is to determine how the liver is functioning after food is introduced into the body

Mardelin 01-14-2010 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 2956012)
so if differences in stomach emptying another reason i think to have an empty stomach at time of doing it

the whole idea of having a pre is to determine how the liver is functioning without any food in system then the post is to determine how the liver is functioning after food is introduced into the body
The key is differences in each individual dog. However, per Dr Centers.....this does not contribute to correct readings.

Again, that is your choice. I still stand with going with an expert's recommendations over those of a lay person.

Brooklynn 01-14-2010 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2956029)
The key is differences in each individual dog. However, per Dr Centers.....this does not contribute to correct readings.

Again, that is your choice. I still stand with going with an expert's recommendations over those of a lay person.
Agreed 100% always go with an expert over someone that doesn't have the degree. Please don't take this as rude but I've always stated PLEASE seek a Vet's advice over someone that is not medically trained before seeking online advice.

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terrier


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