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-   -   Question about bile acid tests!!! (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yorkie-health-diet/193109-question-about-bile-acid-tests.html)

Mardelin 01-01-2010 10:00 AM
[quote=ArmaniMan;2936052]same here and I went to specialty hospital where they do this everyday.

We did not feed her a fatty meal though... just normal food.[/q\\

Dr Centers is the BAT test, and the authority on how to conduct it. LS is her life study and research. Her recent research to date has initiated her change on the no fasting......

AmyChristine 01-01-2010 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2936069)
Sorry, I don't agree. Dr Susan Center's invented the Bile Acid test.....she's an authority and continously working on Liver Shunt, sits on the Board of Veternarians, researching and developing the DNA marker. She and Dr Tobias work hand in hand.............
Sorry slightly off topic... But I would love to know if there is a place where you can donate to the funding of this particualar research? This is something that I am pretty passionate about, My SO's work matches any donations we give to charity and I would love to see this DNA marker become a reality so that we can have more tools for prevention.

Mardelin 01-01-2010 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyChristine (Post 2936081)
Sorry slightly off topic... But I would love to know if there is a place where you can donate to the funding of this particualar research? This is something that I am pretty passionate about, My SO's work matches any donations we give to charity and I would love to see this DNA marker become a reality so that we can have more tools for prevention.
You know she mentioned at the seminar that DNA testing was about a year away. But, predicated on funding. She has just started gene mappingwith over 3,000 samples of Yorkies.

You might check on the YTCA Health Committe Webiste or maybe Contact her; S.A. Center, DVM, Dipl ACVIM
Professor of Internal Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY.....

AmyChristine 01-01-2010 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2936092)
You know she mentioned at the seminar that DNA testing was about a year away. But, predicated on funding. She has just started gene mappingwith over 3,000 samples of Yorkies.

You might check on the YTCA Health Committe Webiste or maybe Contact her; S.A. Center, DVM, Dipl ACVIM
Professor of Internal Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY.....
Thankyou... I will:)

Woogie Man 01-01-2010 10:20 AM
I ran across this article about urine bile acid testing. I had never heard of this before but here's the link for any that want to look it over.

Urine Bile Acids Testing

Mardelin 01-01-2010 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogie Man (Post 2936104)
I ran across this article about urine bile acid testing. I had never heard of this before but here's the link for any that want to look it over.

Urine Bile Acids Testing
A couple of years ago, per Dr Center's.....Yorkies are an anomoly when testing for shunt, therefore leaned towared Urinalysis testing in yorkies. I'm not sure that she still advocates this. But, per her Seminar in Memphis.....what she shared was the her lastest protocol in testing.

Micah my love 01-01-2010 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2936069)
Sorry, I don't agree. Dr Susan Center's invented the Bile Acid test.....she's an authority and continously working on Liver Shunt, sits on the Board of Veternarians, researching and developing the DNA marker. She and Dr Tobias work hand in hand.............
It really is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with me. I posted the facts of what happened when i took 1 of my dogs to UT where Dr Karen Tobias is a very highly respected person by many

Woogie Man 01-01-2010 10:46 AM
I think the question was asked earlier about the procedure for handling blood draws for BAT. Here's what Dr. Centers says.....


- The bile acid test is very reliable but the red blood cells MUST be separated from plasma (the clear part of blood) before they are sent to lab for analysis (centrifuged or spun to allow plasma separation from blood cells). Results can be falsely abnormal if the bile acid samples are lipemic (lots of fat IF the fat is not adequately removed by the laboratory analyzing the sample) or if hemolysis (burst red blood cells, makes the plasma red) occurs. The red color interferes with the color of the end point dye in the bile acid test. A clinician can tell if the sample is hemolyzed when they centrifuge the sample to separate the red blood cells from the plasma. If it is hemolyzed they should collect another sample. Drawing blood with a vacutainer needle into a vacutainer (suction of the tube facilitates the collection) may be too traumatic for some red blood cells augmenting hemolysis. Using a syringe and needle or syringe and butterfly needle appears to collect the best samples. After the blood is collected, the needle should be removed from the syringe and the top removed from the vacutainer so that the blood may be gently transferred to the vial. Results of the bile acid test should state if the samples were lipemic or if hemolysis occurred. In this case, the tests should be repeated



here's the link for the info...

http://ctca-foundation.org/reports/P...ary3July07.pdf

ArmaniMan 01-01-2010 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2936073)
Dr Centers is the BAT test, and the authority on how to conduct it. LS is her life study and research. Her recent research to date has initiated her change on the no fasting......
First, I am always leery when someone says a certain doctor is the be all, end all in a certain study.. there are many doctors out there doing research, testing on this same issue. There are plenty of very good doctors, specializing in this field... Dr. Centers may be a wonderful doctor but to say all people should insist their doctors call her is setting people up for trouble... because they may be seeing doctors who are more educated then her and arent actually going to WANT to call her because they KNOW how to conduct these tests on their own due to their own education/research.

Second, there has to be a certain level of fasting for this test to even make sense... if you did not fast and brought your dog in at 10AM after having been fed at 8 AM in the morning... then both tests would be identical since both times they would have been fed within 2 hours of testing. There has to be some difference in variables or only one test would be necessary.

Mardelin 01-01-2010 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmaniMan (Post 2936158)
First, I am always leery when someone says a certain doctor is the be all, end all in a certain study.. there are many doctors out there doing research, testing on this same issue. There are plenty of very good doctors, specializing in this field... Dr. Centers may be a wonderful doctor but to say all people should insist their doctors call her is setting people up for trouble... because they may be seeing doctors who are more educated then her and arent actually going to WANT to call her because they KNOW how to conduct these tests on their own due to their own education/research.

Second, there has to be a certain level of fasting for this test to even make sense... if you did not fast and brought your dog in at 10AM after having been fed at 8 AM in the morning... then both tests would be identical since both times they would have been fed within 2 hours of testing. There has to be some difference in variables or only one test would be necessary.
Yes, however, since Dr Centers did develop the BAT test and with research has changed her protocol. She was at the forefront of the research and through her continued research has discovered is an upgrade to better readings than what was in initially used in BATs. Every research doctor continues research, never sits on that fact that is good enough.

Mardelin 01-01-2010 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah my love (Post 2936115)
It really is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with me. I posted the facts of what happened when i took 1 of my dogs to UT where Dr Karen Tobias is a very highly respected person by many
In my post I've stated that this is Dr. Centers updated BAT testing protocol. Dr. Tobias uses Dr. Centers BAT Protocol. Both work hand in hand.

Mardelin 01-01-2010 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogie Man (Post 2936144)
I think the question was asked earlier about the procedure for handling blood draws for BAT. Here's what Dr. Centers says.....


- The bile acid test is very reliable but the red blood cells MUST be separated from plasma (the clear part of blood) before they are sent to lab for analysis (centrifuged or spun to allow plasma separation from blood cells). Results can be falsely abnormal if the bile acid samples are lipemic (lots of fat IF the fat is not adequately removed by the laboratory analyzing the sample) or if hemolysis (burst red blood cells, makes the plasma red) occurs. The red color interferes with the color of the end point dye in the bile acid test. A clinician can tell if the sample is hemolyzed when they centrifuge the sample to separate the red blood cells from the plasma. If it is hemolyzed they should collect another sample. Drawing blood with a vacutainer needle into a vacutainer (suction of the tube facilitates the collection) may be too traumatic for some red blood cells augmenting hemolysis. Using a syringe and needle or syringe and butterfly needle appears to collect the best samples. After the blood is collected, the needle should be removed from the syringe and the top removed from the vacutainer so that the blood may be gently transferred to the vial. Results of the bile acid test should state if the samples were lipemic or if hemolysis occurred. In this case, the tests should be repeated



here's the link for the info...

http://ctca-foundation.org/reports/P...ary3July07.pdf
Thanks. I think the seminar is posted on th YTCA Health Committee Website.

Ladymom 01-01-2010 01:29 PM
Here you go:

PSVA and MVD Research Summary

kpstoybox 01-01-2010 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2935662)
As far as I know there is no link. The information I have is in my YTCA Yorkie Express and based on the seminar Dr. Center's held at the Roving National

Your vet should call Dr Centers......or rather you should insist in your vet calling Dr. Centers to obtain explicit instruction on how to draw the blood and correct vacutaianer tube to use. I'm sure she'll provide your vet with documentation.

According to Dr Centers. Bile Acid Testing: Optimal Conditions.

! For best test utility you need paired samples around a meal.
1. collect a sample of blood before the meal
2. Collect a sample of blood 2-hours after the meal

If the dog is stuffed or if the dog is frightened the test result can possibly be skewed.

Pre-meal and post meal can be done on 2 seperate days.

It is not necessary to fast a dog 12-hours before collecting the pre-meal or pre-prandial sample. Food fed is what you normally feed your dog.
Thanks! :)

kpstoybox 01-01-2010 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woogie Man (Post 2936144)
I think the question was asked earlier about the procedure for handling blood draws for BAT. Here's what Dr. Centers says.....


- The bile acid test is very reliable but the red blood cells MUST be separated from plasma (the clear part of blood) before they are sent to lab for analysis (centrifuged or spun to allow plasma separation from blood cells). Results can be falsely abnormal if the bile acid samples are lipemic (lots of fat IF the fat is not adequately removed by the laboratory analyzing the sample) or if hemolysis (burst red blood cells, makes the plasma red) occurs. The red color interferes with the color of the end point dye in the bile acid test. A clinician can tell if the sample is hemolyzed when they centrifuge the sample to separate the red blood cells from the plasma. If it is hemolyzed they should collect another sample. Drawing blood with a vacutainer needle into a vacutainer (suction of the tube facilitates the collection) may be too traumatic for some red blood cells augmenting hemolysis. Using a syringe and needle or syringe and butterfly needle appears to collect the best samples. After the blood is collected, the needle should be removed from the syringe and the top removed from the vacutainer so that the blood may be gently transferred to the vial. Results of the bile acid test should state if the samples were lipemic or if hemolysis occurred. In this case, the tests should be repeated



here's the link for the info...

http://ctca-foundation.org/reports/P...ary3July07.pdf


That is exactly the info I wanted! Thank you!! :)


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