Royal Canin Puppy vs. Wellness Puppy

[Hanyougirlie1]

We have Baylee eating Wellness. She really likes it and we have never had any issues with it. And its good for her so that is an upside

[reeses]

I feed Gizmo Life's Abundance but I have heard some good things about Wellness too.

[lil fu fu girl]

I do not use RC because one of the top ingredients is chicken "meal". I prefer not to feed mine anything with the term "meal" in it.

As for corn, it is a carbohydrate with trace proteins. The problem arises when corn is used for the main protein,( in the top 5 on the ingredient list) as it is a vegetable protein, or an "incomplete" protein, due to the fact that it does not contain enough amino acids that are necessary for metabolism. In essence, this means that it is very difficult for your pup to digest it.

The second problem with using corn as a main protein is the fact that proteins are processed in the liver and the waste materials from this process are filtered and excreted through the kidneys; both of these functions requires water to complete the process. High quality proteins such as red meat, do not generate large amounts of waste, so not a lot of stress on the liver or kidneys. On the other hand, poor quality proteins such as corn, which is difficult to digest, puts added stress on the kidneys as it generates excessive waste byproducts that need to be taken out of the liver and carried to the kidneys and then excreted, which means a lot more water must be taken in to allow this process to work correctly. When sufficient water is not present these byproducts cannot be expelled, that is where disease issues arise for our pups.

In consideration, I would make sure that my pups get a quality protein that is not vegetable based.

[RachelandSadie]

or you could just go home made Raw and leave all the bagged up by-product dog food behind lol, i feed a home made raw diet of nothing but human grade food. it's simple, can be frozen until you need another cup of it and it's great for their teeth, skin, coat, and overall health. my aunt introduced me and we love it, her dog has eaten it for two years and has had NO tarter issues at all and Sadie has "great teeth" according to my vet. plus their breath is better smelling and you always know exactly what is in their food!

if interested PM me, i'm happy to share it if you want to try it out. i firmly believe dog food manufacturers are simply using the stuff that people wont' eat and putting it into dog food. if i can't eat it, neither can my dog, that's JMO though. our raw diet was formulated by my aunt's mom a hobby nutritionist for dogs. she's made things for other dogs with allergies and this particular recipe is perfect for our babies!!

[Britster]

Originally Posted by lil fu fu girl

I do not use RC because one of the top ingredients is chicken "meal". I prefer not to feed mine anything with the term "meal" in it.

As for corn, it is a carbohydrate with trace proteins. The problem arises when corn is used for the main protein,( in the top 5 on the ingredient list) as it is a vegetable protein, or an "incomplete" protein, due to the fact that it does not contain enough amino acids that are necessary for metabolism. In essence, this means that it is very difficult for your pup to digest it.

The second problem with using corn as a main protein is the fact that proteins are processed in the liver and the waste materials from this process are filtered and excreted through the kidneys; both of these functions requires water to complete the process. High quality proteins such as red meat, do not generate large amounts of waste, so not a lot of stress on the liver or kidneys. On the other hand, poor quality proteins such as corn, which is difficult to digest, puts added stress on the kidneys as it generates excessive waste byproducts that need to be taken out of the liver and carried to the kidneys and then excreted, which means a lot more water must be taken in to allow this process to work correctly. When sufficient water is not present these byproducts cannot be expelled, that is where disease issues arise for our pups.

In consideration, I would make sure that my pups get a quality protein that is not vegetable based.

Chicken meal is not bad, from my understanding. Chicken meal is simply chicken that has been baked to remove bacteria and other toxins. An ingredient listed as Chicken is just that... just chicken, but it's made mostly out of water, therefore even if it says "60% chicken" that's misleading and not true, and would be placed further down on the ingredient list. So technically w/ the "meal" you're actually getting MORE meat. I prefer to see a "meal" followed after the chicken on the ingredient list because it means you're actually getting sufficient meat. If that makes any sense.

[lil fu fu girl]

Originally Posted by Britster

Chicken meal is not bad, from my understanding. Chicken meal is simply chicken that has been baked to remove bacteria and other toxins. An ingredient listed as Chicken is just that... just chicken, but it's made mostly out of water, therefore even if it says "60% chicken" that's misleading and not true, and would be placed further down on the ingredient list. So technically w/ the "meal" you're actually getting MORE meat. I prefer to see a "meal" followed after the chicken on the ingredient list because it means you're actually getting sufficient meat. If that makes any sense.

My issue with chicken, or any meat protein that is labeled "meal", is not the issue surrounding protein content. It is surrounding the fact that most meals in kibble are "Pet-Grade-meals", not meals that are made for human consumption. [Your kibble package will specifically state, "Human-grade meal" if it is made from human grade meal.] Pet -Grade meals are the compiled results from the rejects of what is Not fit for human consumption,ie; those that are diseased. Yes the high heat process used to create the meal, kills bacterium, however, most toxins are the by-products of the bacteria, and these are Not killed with the heat process. Therefore, these toxins are transferred into the pet-grade meal and allowed to be distributed, unbeknownst to the buyer.

Currently the ARS, Agriculture Research Service, is researching technology, a biosensor-based method , which can detect these toxins in human grade foods. No testing on any pet-grade foods are in their agenda as of yet. Hope this helps.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by lil fu fu girl

I do not use RC because one of the top ingredients is chicken "meal". I prefer not to feed mine anything with the term "meal" in it.

As for corn, it is a carbohydrate with trace proteins. The problem arises when corn is used for the main protein,( in the top 5 on the ingredient list) as it is a vegetable protein, or an "incomplete" protein, due to the fact that it does not contain enough amino acids that are necessary for metabolism. In essence, this means that it is very difficult for your pup to digest it.

The second problem with using corn as a main protein is the fact that proteins are processed in the liver and the waste materials from this process are filtered and excreted through the kidneys; both of these functions requires water to complete the process. High quality proteins such as red meat, do not generate large amounts of waste, so not a lot of stress on the liver or kidneys. On the other hand, poor quality proteins such as corn, which is difficult to digest, puts added stress on the kidneys as it generates excessive waste byproducts that need to be taken out of the liver and carried to the kidneys and then excreted, which means a lot more water must be taken in to allow this process to work correctly. When sufficient water is not present these byproducts cannot be expelled, that is where disease issues arise for our pups.

In consideration, I would make sure that my pups get a quality protein that is not vegetable based.

Sounds like you have been researching, but as I said earlier, things are really more complex than what you read at first. Actually meal is considered better by many, as long as it specifies the type of meal, like "chicken". When it's just meat meal, you don't know what you are getting, and as Britster says you are actually getting more of the chicken in meal because no water is included in this. Fresh meat contributes far less concentrated animal protein to a product, since 60-75% of the weight is water, which is removed during the manufacturing process. The Dog Food Project - Meat vs. Meal

Furthermore, chicken meal is considered very easy to digest. In addition, your comment on corn is a little misleading. Corn doesn't have the necessary amino acids to form a complete protein but when mixed with other proteins, does form the compete protein. You say that corn should not be used in the first 5 ingredients, this seems like some arbitrary number, why 5? From everything I've read it shouldn't be listed as the first ingredient, because that means the protein source is mainly coming from corn, and this is not satisfactory for the reasons you listed. I actually believe the way things are listed are very confusing for the average person, and they don't understand that the water content in foods can really throw off where on the list they fall.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by lil fu fu girl

My issue with chicken, or any meat protein that is labeled "meal", is not the issue surrounding protein content. It is surrounding the fact that most meals in kibble are "Pet-Grade-meals", not meals that are made for human consumption. [Your kibble package will specifically state, "Human-grade meal" if it is made from human grade meal.] Pet -Grade meals are the compiled results from the rejects of what is Not fit for human consumption,ie; those that are diseased. Yes the high heat process used to create the meal, kills bacterium, however, most toxins are the by-products of the bacteria, and these are Not killed with the heat process. Therefore, these toxins are transferred into the pet-grade meal and allowed to be distributed, unbeknownst to the buyer.

Currently the ARS, Agriculture Research Service, is researching technology, a biosensor-based method , which can detect these toxins in human grade foods. No testing on any pet-grade foods are in their agenda as of yet. Hope this helps.

First of all, there is no such thing as human grade meal, so trying to find a dog food with it would be impossible. One of the reasons we cook things is to kill bacteria, and you are suggesting that toxins are some present after this happens, and that these toxins are dangerous. However, if this were true, it would have a major impact on humans as well, because nearly everything we eat has been cooked.

[lil fu fu girl]

In acknowledgment to your first statement, yes chicken meal does contain more protein then the chicken listed as an ingredient by itself, as you simply stated due to the fact of water content, and yes, meal is very easy to digest, especially for puppies.
In answer to the question about the number 5; most kibbles at present not only add in gluten,but also starch , flour, syrup etc. of corn and various other carbohydrates. Usually you will see the main source of meat protein as the number one ingredient, and then in some kibbles, an assortment of corn or grains and their by-products. So in essence, even though the meat is labeled as the first and primary ingredient, its weight is far less than the combined next 4, when they are all by-products of corn or grains: if that makes sense to you. In nutritionist speak, "The first five" ingredients, are ones of the most nutrient dense significance, or they should be.
As for corn, it is not a complete protein, however if combined with legumes , such as beans, the body can then synthesize the proteins to form a complete protein. However, as stated , this taxes not only the liver but also the kidneys due to the waste materials that are generated in the bodies processing of it.
As for human grade meal, I should have stated " Human grade" for the meat used in the meal. My mistake. Most meals processed for our pups are not from human grade meat products, as we all know, they are from a whole different realm in the processing plant.
HSUS states:
"Currently, downed animals, as well as other condemned meat, can be used in pet foods. These meats, known as the 4-D—dead, dying, diseased or down—meats, are sent to rendering facilities, along with other offal (animal products considered unfit for human consumption) from factory farms. They are then boiled, melted, or otherwise processed to become tallow, meal, or other ingredients to be used in edible and inedible products, including pet foods."
As for toxins being present after our food has been cooked, sterilized, processed etc, allow me just to say ....omg..... YES!
Staphylococcus bacteria produce toxins (or poisons). While the bacteria can be killed at 120 degrees, its toxins are Heat Resistant, and remain in the food.
Clostridium perfringens, more commonly known as botulism, can survive hours of processing, and not only that, but the cooking drives off oxygen, kills competitive organisms and heat-shocks the spores, all of which promote germination.
vCreutzfeldt-Jacob disease , does not go away with any amount of processing, that is why the cattle are burned. And in consideration that the "downed" meat is allowed in our pets "meal" this could affect them as well. Not to mention Scrapie found in sheep, or the new Wasting Disease transmitted through deer meat. All of these are not effected by heat processing.
AGE's ; Advanced Glycation End Products are formed when meat is sterilized and pasteurized, have now been linked to diabetes, kidney disease, Alzheimer's etc.
These are to name but only a few, there are many, many more.
Having been in academia for a Nutritional Science degree, I realize that you are absolutely correct. There are some who have but a glint of nutritional designs, and yet, they approach the field as an expert. I am by far, no expert. However, I do consider myself educated in the field, or , at least I try to be
Hope this clarifies my opinions.......

[lil fu fu girl]

FYI; this is a fantastic read! Defines a lot about pet nutrition in laymans terms .

Whats really in pet food?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by lil fu fu girl

FYI; this is a fantastic read! Defines a lot about pet nutrition in laymans terms .

Whats really in pet food?

Sorry, but that's one of those sites that I believe that they mix fact with fiction and use a whole lot of scare tactics, with no real science.

[lil fu fu girl]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Sorry, but that's one of those sites that I believe that they mix fact with fiction and use a whole lot of scare tactics, with no real science.

Interesting............

Well , it appears that the majority of the references for this article came from the Journals of Veterinary Medicine, The Small Animal Nutritonal journal, and the FDA.

Huh...that sounds like non-fictional science-based research to me.
However, to each his own.............

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by lil fu fu girl

Interesting............

Well , it appears that the majority of the references for this article came from the Journals of Veterinary Medicine, The Small Animal Nutritonal journal, and the FDA.

Huh...that sounds like non-fictional science-based research to me.
However, to each his own.............

That's exactly what I mean, they mix "fact" with fiction.

[lil fu fu girl]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

That's exactly what I mean, they mix "fact" with fiction.

It has become completely clear to me that there is only one person mixing fact and fiction here, and it certainly is not the article.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by lil fu fu girl

It has become completely clear to me that there is only one person mixing fact and fiction here, and it certainly is not the article.

What I was trying to say is that it's important that specific statements be referenced, not just an entire article. You don't know who approves of certain statements, and this is an example of writing that is meant to persuade you. Most of what is written in that article is opinion, just because they list references, it doesn't mean that those references agree with what they have stated.