Worried sick about my yorkie "harley"

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

I think I just answered (part of) my own question:
Canned:
l/d® Canine
Dry:
l/d® Canine

I guess the major protein source is dried egg and soy?? (Also, looks like the dry contains "Pork Protein Isolate" whatever that is, but I don't see ethyoxyquin in the ingredients....should it be there or do we just know it's there?) Lots of other ingredients I don't like though....I guess I'd need to home cook. If you don't mind, would you tell me a little about that...like what protein you use in home-cooking, etc...?

Looking at these ingredients, honestly these liver disease diets would be a last resort for me. Even the "good" canned L/D and I think RC LS 14 contains menadione. I don't see ethoxyquin in the L/D dry (maybe they took it out?) but I would not give pork. If she is asymptomatic, you might be able to do Natural Balance Vegetarian or something along those lines. I would give you Ellie's recipe but her nutritionist did low-moderate protein and any meat source basically (maybe because she is pretty much asymptomatic). I think we are okay with it but I wouldn't recommend it for other liver compromised dogs.

Some of the better proteins are tofu, cottage cheese and egg.
Fish is okay for some dogs and you might get away with chicken.
Turkey is very questionable and I would not use red meat, pork or exotics at all. Some of this depends on who you ask. Does that answer your question?

By far my favorite diet for liver compromised dogs is homecooked.
Oh, and I cook once or twice a month and freeze it.
They should eat small meals more often.
Ellie eats three times a day but 4-6 is really better.

Could you post the ingredients to the food you are thinking about?
If I had to feed Ellie kibble, I might go with NB Vegetarian if there are no corn derivatives in it.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

If she is asymptomatic, you might be able to do Natural Balance Vegetarian or something along those lines. I would give you Ellie's recipe but her nutritionist did low-moderate protein and any meat source basically (maybe because she is pretty much asymptomatic). I think we are okay with it but I wouldn't recommend it for other liver compromised dogs.

Some of the better proteins are tofu, cottage cheese and egg.
Fish is okay for some dogs and you might get away with chicken.
Turkey is very questionable and I would not use red meat, pork or exotics at all. Some of this depends on who you ask. Does that answer your question?

By far my favorite diet for liver compromised dogs is homecooked.
Oh, and I cook once or twice a month and freeze it.
They should eat small meals more often.
Ellie eats three times a day but 4-6 is really better.

Could you post the ingredients to the food you are thinking about?
If I had to feed Ellie kibble, I might go with NB Vegetarian if there are no corn derivatives in it.

Good grief! I said NV, but meant NB....

Here are the ingredients in NB Vegetarian you suggested:
Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Peas, Potato Protein, Canola Oil, Potatoes, Tomato Pomace, Vegetable Flavoring, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Spinach, Parsley Flakes, Cranberries, L-Lysine, L-Carnitine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-2 Supplement, Folic Acid.

and here are the ingredients in NB Sweet Potato and Fish:
Sweet Potatoes, Salmon, Salmon Meal, Canola Oil, Potato Fiber, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Methionine, Choline Chloride, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

I guess that one isn't so good after all....I think Salmon was one you should stay away from for liver-compromised right?? (possible Mercury content or something??)

I guess if her BAT comes back abnormal, I should just pay the money and do the consult on the site you linked in another thread (I saved it!) and/or use the NB Vegetarian. It has 18% protein. I can already see I'm going to have problems feeding her multiple times a day. Bella really will only eat for me once a day usually, but of course she gets kibble. Anytime I offer her a "human food" snack, she eats it. I guess she just likes variety, because she loves her kibble while it's new, and then goes back to eating only passively, but a change in kibble will make her more eager again. My boyfriend could feed her "lunch" I think, but I don't know if I'd be able to do 3 times a day every day . I'm pretty sure if I home cooked, she'd eat breakfast even though she won't right now, but I worry if I stick with the same recipe, she'll grow tired of it and will go back to eating like she does now.

Do you ever vary Ellie's diet or is it always the same? I don't know if that's ok at all for liver-compromised pups, but I'd like to if at all possible.....I think it would make for more eager eating and possible less sensitivity or pickiness in the long run but I don't know?

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by bellasmomok

Good grief! I said NV, but meant NB....

Here are the ingredients in NB Vegetarian you suggested:
Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Peas, Potato Protein, Canola Oil, Potatoes, Tomato Pomace, Vegetable Flavoring, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Spinach, Parsley Flakes, Cranberries, L-Lysine, L-Carnitine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-2 Supplement, Folic Acid.

and here are the ingredients in NB Sweet Potato and Fish:
Sweet Potatoes, Salmon, Salmon Meal, Canola Oil, Potato Fiber, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Methionine, Choline Chloride, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

I guess that one isn't so good after all....I think Salmon was one you should stay away from for liver-compromised right?? (possible Mercury content or something??)

I guess if her BAT comes back abnormal, I should just pay the money and do the consult on the site you linked in another thread (I saved it!) and/or use the NB Vegetarian. It has 18% protein. I can already see I'm going to have problems feeding her multiple times a day. Bella really will only eat for me once a day usually, but of course she gets kibble. Anytime I offer her a "human food" snack, she eats it. I guess she just likes variety, because she loves her kibble while it's new, and then goes back to eating only passively, but a change in kibble will make her more eager again. My boyfriend could feed her "lunch" I think, but I don't know if I'd be able to do 3 times a day every day . I'm pretty sure if I home cooked, she'd eat breakfast even though she won't right now, but I worry if I stick with the same recipe, she'll grow tired of it and will go back to eating like she does now.

Do you ever vary Ellie's diet or is it always the same? I don't know if that's ok at all for liver-compromised pups, but I'd like to if at all possible.....I think it would make for more eager eating and possible less sensitivity or pickiness in the long run but I don't know?

Yes, it is good to vary the diet.
Don't know about the salmon but I've never seen that food recommended for liver compromised dogs.

There is also a nutritionist at Cornell (might know Dr. Center).
You could try him.

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Yes, it is good to vary the diet.
Don't know about the salmon but I've never seen that food recommended for liver compromised dogs.

There is also a nutritionist at Cornell (might know Dr. Center).
You could try him.

Any idea how to find him? I tried searching but didn't come up with anything.... I'm looking to hear about Bella's BAT tomorrow, so if it's abnormal, I'll probably go ahead and start the process of altering her diet. I would think no matter what the liver problem is (MVD, LS, ??) she probably needs a protein restricted diet and I would rather she starts that now so she stays assymptomatic!! (Someone [not a vet] told me a couple of days ago that as long as she's assympotomatic, there's no need to do any more tests or change anything!!! I said, "well, I'd rather find out and fix it BEFORE she's symptomatic...why wait for neurologic, etc... signs! That only means it's progressed to the point of causing problems!)

[mom2twins]

Originally Posted by TLC

I am so sorry to hear about your baby...I hope you will be able to get her the surgery needed. Have you looked into the University of Tenn? Dr. Tobias is highly recommended and ppl here have gone there and had the surgery and it cost about $1300

P.S. I believe K/D is BAD to be feeding a Liver Shunt dog. Others will chime in soon, but I think it may have Pork Liver in it and that is VERY HARMFUL to be feeding an LS dog.

Hills canned l/d or royal canin hepatic ls 14 is BEST for LS dogs

I would really hate for you to be doing more damage to her liver by stressing it with the wrong food.

Please join this group: DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

They are very experienced with LS dogs and they have a great support system and a wealth of knowledge to guide you to help your baby!

Hi...

My Yorkie also has kidney stones and bladder stones. The vet prescribed k/d before liver shunt was confirmed. The vet told me she gave Jordan k/d because she knows it is very low in protein. She will get back to me on which would be better for my Yorkie to be on, K/D or L/D.

Thanks for the reply.

[mom2twins]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I'm sorry about your little girl.

She is on supplement until surgery can be done, right?
Low protein is a good idea but the type of protein is also very important.
K/D contains the wrong kind of protein (pork).
Both K/D and L/D dry contain ethoxyquin.
I wouldn't give either.
As Nicole said, L/D canned and Royal Canin LS 14 are the best.
Royal Canin tends to make Yorkies itchy.
I would try the L/D canned first.

A lot of vets don't know much about dietary management of LS evidently because they grab the K/D (probably because they see it is low protein) without studying the ingredients.

Thanks for your reply. I will ask the vet on what you suggested. My Yorkie also has kidney stones and bladder stones.

We have an appointment to consult w/the surgeon on December 1st. The hospital is 2 hours away and they don't have saturday appointment. I'm sure he would give us the cost. I will also let him know, that we can not afford at this time. I know there is medication she can be on. The board certified radiologist, mentioned medication therapy. Perhaps that is an option until we can get the money for surgery.

I've never fed my Yorkie canned food. She has always eaten dry. Again...I will look into your recommendations.

[TLC]

Originally Posted by mom2twins

Thanks for your reply. I will ask the vet on what you suggested. My Yorkie also has kidney stones and bladder stones.

We have an appointment to consult w/the surgeon on December 1st. The hospital is 2 hours away and they don't have saturday appointment. I'm sure he would give us the cost. I will also let him know, that we can not afford at this time. I know there is medication she can be on. The board certified radiologist, mentioned medication therapy. Perhaps that is an option until we can get the money for surgery.

I've never fed my Yorkie canned food. She has always eaten dry. Again...I will look into your recommendations.

Oh boy, there are serious issues going here with her....I know you don't have the money (yet) for surgery, but I hope you are being told, that she probably can not wait too long. There are also options: Care Credit is one and I am sure there are other place the help

You should look into the U of Tenn with Dr. Tobias, she is highly recommended for LS surgery and the cost is much, much less than other places.

Canned is better b/c it has more moisture and is less processed than dry.

PLEASE join that Yahoo Group - you will get mush need support and guidance in this critical time

[mom2twins]

We did apply for Care credit. We were not approved.

We can not go to Tenn. to see the surgeon you mentioned.

The hospital we are going to, the surgeon has done many. The ultrasound cost $330 not to mention the cost of gas. The bile acid test cost us $95.00. She had an ultrasound done locally that cost us $150. Turned out the vet was not board certified. She couldn't locate the liver shunt. Before all this, the vet thought she may have addison's disease. Therefore, an ACTH test was done. That cost us $222.00. Thank goodness it was normal. That's when she thought perhaps it's a liver shunt.

The surgical consultation will cost us $105. We are struggling financially.

Thanks

[bellasmomok]

Originally Posted by KIMBERLY1717

Yes i will post his blood panels tonight when i get home. My vet can not honestly answer what harley has or does not have. Liver issues, yes, is it under control today; probably, we have done ultrasounds, chest xrays, blood panels, did he have hge?, yes we "think" so, probably under control now. I have contacted my vet again to get all records, xrays, and meds he has been on since he first got sick. He just had to get fluids last week. I have been studying this forum, i did get him the "wellness - duck/potatoe to try last night, he loved it, and had a normal bowel movement. This morning i treid the wellness whitefish/?, he ate it, we will see. I gave him some yougurt last night, he only licked the spoon a little, not real crazy about it. I bought the organic pumpkin yesterday. How do you feed this to them, with their other food? Or a certain amount by itself? How much? I also bought a book on natural health for dog and cats. I will try anything to get my baby normal - thanks for your help

I know we've gotten off on several tangents.....I'm sorry, I know I was part of that!!

BUT, I'm still wondering about your baby's lab results?? I hope he is doing ok tonight....check back in about those results when you get a chance!!

[dwerten]

yes there are two great groups the one mentioned and Liver_Shunt_And_MVD_Support@yahoogroups.com -- dr tobias is the best and i know we just did an auction for another liver shunt baby on some yorky groups and on dogster if you belong on there they do auction as one was done for baby bear on here. I know dr tobias did surgery and we paid the money within 60 days for a yorkie named rosie - maybe the same can be done for yours. join those two groups and there might be some good options to help with yours. Hang in there

[dwerten]

dr dodds liver cleansing diet is excellent and we work with Jean dodds and she is wonderful. She uses cod in her diet. I do not recommend salmon -- cod is what i would go with

[TLC]

Originally Posted by mom2twins

We did apply for Care credit. We were not approved.

We can not go to Tenn. to see the surgeon you mentioned.

The hospital we are going to, the surgeon has done many. The ultrasound cost $330 not to mention the cost of gas. The bile acid test cost us $95.00. She had an ultrasound done locally that cost us $150. Turned out the vet was not board certified. She couldn't locate the liver shunt. Before all this, the vet thought she may have addison's disease. Therefore, an ACTH test was done. That cost us $222.00. Thank goodness it was normal. That's when she thought perhaps it's a liver shunt.

The surgical consultation will cost us $105. We are struggling financially.

Thanks

Hmmm....maybe a credit card or payment plans? I know there have been posts where ppl listed places to try and get $ from ~ I hope it all can work out...
Liver Shunt
Welcome to ALL 4 PETS WNY

There are more sites, but I can't remember where I saw them posted...I'll keep looking though


P.S. Please don't take offense to this, but if you can not provide her with the care needed, please consider surrendering her to a Yorkie Rescue. I have had the pleasure of working with two.

Jen at rescuemeyorkie.com
They have a shunt baby right now that they got surgery for (see the website)

Olga at RetroDoggy Rescue,Michigan Yorkshire Terrier Rescue,Michigan Maltese Rescue
They deal with MANY shunt babies, they are extremely knowledge in this area

***TRUST ME - Join this Group: DogLiverDisease : Dog Liver Disease

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by KIMBERLY1717

Yes i will post his blood panels tonight when i get home. My vet can not honestly answer what harley has or does not have. Liver issues, yes, is it under control today; probably, we have done ultrasounds, chest xrays, blood panels, did he have hge?, yes we "think" so, probably under control now. I have contacted my vet again to get all records, xrays, and meds he has been on since he first got sick. He just had to get fluids last week. I have been studying this forum, i did get him the "wellness - duck/potatoe to try last night, he loved it, and had a normal bowel movement. This morning i treid the wellness whitefish/?, he ate it, we will see. I gave him some yougurt last night, he only licked the spoon a little, not real crazy about it. I bought the organic pumpkin yesterday. How do you feed this to them, with their other food? Or a certain amount by itself? How much? I also bought a book on natural health for dog and cats. I will try anything to get my baby normal - thanks for your help

also probiotics are good for digestive issues -- i use dds plus from whole foods

[Mom2Odie]

Hi,

I'm new to this site. Just got my puppy 3 weeks ago. I feed my puppy Wellness Dog Food. It is a superior dog food ... all natural ... no meat by-products, gluten, wheat, corn etc ... check out their website and read up on their ingredients. It's health food for your pet. My puppy was on Eukanuba and I switched him over slowly to the Wellness. I also only give him Wellness treats. All of his treats have natural, healthy ingredients.
Watch out for any food/treats that have wheat gluten, or any other common allergens.
Good Luck

[mom2twins]

Kimberly1717,

I apologize. I replied to your post and then keep going back and forth regarding my Yorkie's situation.

I would like to know what has been going. What are the results of your baby's bloodwork? Have they gotten any closer to finding out a dx?

I just found this board today and look forward to being a part of it.