Roach back

[YorkieRose]

The way to tell is to wet her topline..part it and stack her on the table...

[bonmur]

I was jsut today reading a book by Mona Huxham It is a very large book that really reads into the breed.
It answered alot of questions I had been thinking of lately,
they believe that the Dandie Dinmont is the cause for the roached back in Yorkies,
It says in this book that they were
"bred from Skye, Paisley and Or clydesdale terrier for the long coat, maltese to breed down size, coat and shape,
SO in this book, the roached back is a recessive gene that people are perpetuating by breeding it when even if it were not a visible fault it still lurks in the background and could pop up anywhere. Breeding an obvious roached back will perpetuate it faster as it will breed 1 recessive with a dominant so more chance of it cropping up. It lies dormant in all yorkies if this lady os to be believed"
BOn

[yorkieK9trainer]

bonmur-
I honestly think that the wording is incorrect if you're sighting what you posted from a specific chapter in a book. Only in the sense that a Dandie Dinmont doesn't have a "roached" back, but rather a significant curvature of the spine. There really is a difference. Proper wording is much needed when it pertains to most things, dogs especially. If someone told me that a dog is big, I think large as in weight. But, many people I speak w/ will say "big" meaning "tall". If someone tells me that a dog is tall, well that's more descriptive and concise. I then know that the dog is...tall. Do you see what I'm saying? Nit picking, yes, but that's me!

And yes, one could say that a significant curvature of the spine is a recessive gene within the breed, however that's indicative of many traits seen within many breeds from their origins. This is why it's terribly important that we have a standard. A phenotype that we strive for. With one inherited genetic phenome that comes out of the wood works, often come many. And not all recessive genes are as benign as a curvature of the topline.

[yorkieK9trainer]

yorkierose-
I just wanted to mention for the sake of mentioning, that the best way to take a look at a topline really "should" (imo) be done w/o a person stacking the dog. I always, ALWAYS want to see what the dog has naturally on their own.

So, have a family member or friend put your "kid" on a leash and walk a few steps and then stop. Repeat this several times. Each time the person stops, you-who are standing/sitting nearby-can take a look at their natural structure when they are just standing around. Is it level in this state? If so, you now know that you have no fault in your topline in which you need to mask by stacking the dog yourself. This is called a free stack and while it can be taught, I always look at a dog in this fashion prior to purchase. Any good handler can hide a slight fault and present a fabulous breed dipiction to a judge. If I were to look at a breeding specimen especially....look at them in their natural state first.

jm2c!

[bonmur]

I took different quotes and piced them together from the same chapter, here is the exact wording fromt he book where ist pertains to the Dandie Dinmont.
"It has been purported that the all grey coat ( or in more official terms the all blue coat )was used so that in future litters all one color ones were mated to the black and tan toy terrier or the dandie dinmont ( which cross would spoil the coat and texture but drop the ears) would then continue along a very severe retain and rejection policy until the breed was at last fixed in body , coat colour and bantam size"
then I skip forward
"even today when maltese whites and such like appear , Again sometimes it is the drop ears of the Dandie dinmont or its broken coat that crops up in the breeding and needs culling"
And Yet again without typing the whole book I refer to this as well
"The Dandie Dinmont-There is no way that a cross with this roach-backed terrier could have improved the looks of a Show yorkie."
I can go on and on in referenc to the Dandie Dinmont but really dont feel like typing out the whole book.,
I will say it has many dandie dinmont and skye terrier reference.
Just my take. ANd she is speaking of how hard it has been to breed out of the YT ( The roach back that is..)
Bon

[bonmur]

Oh and yep you are so right about genetics and phenotype.
As my genetics goes, " When you look at a dog , you are not looking at just 1 dog you are looking at 2, the other is the hidden genes hidden within a dogs genetics that in itself could produce an entirely different dog within itself if the genetics meet with the same traits"
Bonnie

[yorkieloverz]

I purchased a AKC yorkie In Baltimore, Maryland from Vicki Hill. People always claim that AKC yorkies are better. Not! My yorkie developed a roach back in 11 months. A roach back is a vertebral malformation with kyphosis and secondary spinal cord compression. Her vertebral malformation is in the midthoracic portion of the vertebral column. Unfortunately, she had a vertebral malformation at birth, but the clinical signs of spinal cord compression didn't occur until a year later. The kyphosis that causes the spinal cord compression developed at the site of the malformation as she aged, and this accounts for the age of onset of the progressive spastic paraparesis and ataxia of the pelvic limbs.

AKC breeders need to start getting the proper test done to make sure that their dog's are suitable for breeding. Roach back is caused by genetic inheritance
possibly exposure of pregnant bitches to compounds causing birth defects during fetal development, toxins, nutritional deficiencies, and stress.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by yorkieloverz

I purchased a AKC yorkie In Baltimore, Maryland from Vicki Hill. People always claim that AKC yorkies are better. Not! My yorkie developed a roach back in 11 months. A roach back is a vertebral malformation with kyphosis and secondary spinal cord compression. Her vertebral malformation is in the midthoracic portion of the vertebral column. Unfortunately, she had a vertebral malformation at birth, but the clinical signs of spinal cord compression didn't occur until a year later. The kyphosis that causes the spinal cord compression developed at the site of the malformation as she aged, and this accounts for the age of onset of the progressive spastic paraparesis and ataxia of the pelvic limbs.

AKC breeders need to start getting the proper test done to make sure that their dog's are suitable for breeding. Roach back is caused by genetic inheritance
possibly exposure of pregnant bitches to compounds causing birth defects during fetal development, toxins, nutritional deficiencies, and stress.

I’m so sorry. Have you talked to the breeder? Just being AKC dosen’t mean it’s a good breeder although it is the only reputable registry in the US. You have to do more reasearch then AKC. The best place to start is ussally with the breed club that normally has stricter rules. For Yorkies it’s the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America (ytca.org).

[yorkieloverz]

I appreciate the information. I will keep that in mind in the future. I called her today, and she said she never had that problem before and it might be the mother she got out of state. She claims she been breeding for 20 years and has never had that happen before. In addition, she won’t breed her anymore, but that’s it. I was told that the price to fit her back is $10,000 by a surgeon. That price is ridiculous.

[airplane]

Here’s a picture showing what a roach back, camel back, down in the shoulders, and a weak topline all look like.

[airplane]

One last point I want to make is that I don’t know if a topline problem always leads to clinical signs of things like spinal cord compression, etc., and gets to a point where surgery may be needed. I suspect though that it doesn’t in all cases. Yorkieloverz, I’m really sorry that you and your yorkie are dealing with this. I’d be very upset too if any of my dogs needed a surgery to fix that.

One of my dogs does have a topline that can faulter. It mostly happens when she’s scared or nervous and her tail is tucked, etc. When that happens she’ll look roachy. She’s also just a touch down in the front. But those are things that I certainly hope won’t ever lead to clinical symptoms of any issues.

It was actually a fairly big deal when I was showing her cause she’d always be nervous at shows. So the comment before in this thread about a handler hiding a fault, I know exactly what they’re doing - they’re probably making sure the dog is leaning slightly forward and has more weight on their front legs when stacked. And speeding the dog up when the judge has a side view of the dog. Those are things I had to do to try conceal her roachy topline when she was so scared and nervous. I’m thankful though that she doesn’t normally look like that all the time, and it doesn’t seem to affect her health. But now I gotta research this cause I’m curious. My other yorkie has an unbelievable topline that never faulters. Even when he’s trying to curl up into a ball to go to sleep, topline still nice and straight and solid.

[yorkieloverz]

You’re correct. That is what my yorkie looks like, but her curve is much higher.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by yorkieloverz

I appreciate the information. I will keep that in mind in the future. I called her today, and she said she never had that problem before and it might be the mother she got out of state. She claims she been breeding for 20 years and has never had that happen before. In addition, she won’t breed her anymore, but that’s it. I was told that the price to fit her back is $10,000 by a surgeon. That price is ridiculous.

Have you checked with a few other specialists about price?

[yorkieloverz]

I’m still looking around, because most people can’t afford that price. I’m not rich. Lol

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by yorkieloverz

I’m still looking around, because most people can’t afford that price. I’m not rich. Lol

I can tell you in Md it’s going to be expensive. You might want to look into care credit.