CNS/Cerebellar disease or ODVD?

[Jenna AK]

Does anyone have experience with these illnesses? Can old dog vestibular disease be mistaken for CNS deterioration? Is it possible for a non specialist vet to diagnose CNS without an MRI or CT scan? What are the most successful treatments for each and what should be avoided?

Many thanks for any and all replies.

[Jenna AK]

Wow, 31 views but no one has any help to offer?
Has no one dealt with these issues? If so, what is your experience? I admit it's not a pleasant subject to discuss neurological dysfunction in our babies but some of us are struggling with very sad and scary situations and could use some support.

Whenever I've posted here I've tried my utmost to be patient, courteous and polite but compared to other forums I've been on there's an appalling lack of response here. I realize everyone has their own lives and worries but this is a rather time sensitive issue and even flagging this post with an exclamation point has not helped bring attention to it. So I'll try one more time.... If there is anyone who has had any experience with neurological problems in your Yorkie that mimic old dog vestibular disease but your vet tells you it must be cerebellar dysfunction or central nervous system disease, can you please come forward and post? It would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

[maxdog]

I am one of those 31 views but unfortunately the only thing I can offer is my prayers for your furbaby.

[Lovetodream88]

I feel bad that no one has posted any help but sadly not a lot of people post here as much as they used to several years ago. I intended to look it up and try to help when I can but things have been crazy at the moment. I'm sorry.

[Jenna AK]

Thank you both. Prayers are always gratefully accepted, please never hesitate to post those thoughts, maxdog. I truly appreciate them and I know others do to.

Taylor, thank you also. I've been scouring the internet and working with the vet on Jenna's case. We're hoping prednisone will slow progression but it's a shot in the dark at best. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Sad to see this forum has gone so quiet. I met some really nice folks here years ago when Jenna first came to me. I wish I'd kept in touch better also.

[Ellie May]

I’m sorry about your pup.

My Yorkie had idiopathic, left paradoxical vestibular disease likely originating from her cerebellum. That is as far as it could be pinpointed without imaging (which she was not a candidate for). We used mirtazapine for appetite. If I remember correctly drugs were contraindicated because the exact cause was unknown. She should see a neurologist.

[nanajoy]

I am sorry, but I have no experience in this area. I will keep you in my thoughts, and hope that others can help you with advice in your time of need!

[lillymae]

I'm sorry that your baby is having troubles. Can you tell us what her symptoms are ? Typically with Idiopathic Vestibular Syndrome or Old Dog Vestibular Syndrome there will be fluid in the inner ear. People can also suffer from this. Antibiotics and antihistamines are used and Dramamine for the dizziness & nausea. When my dog had this it happened in the middle of the night & I took to ER, by the next evening she was much improved but not back to normal for about 2 wks.

[Jenna AK]

Thank you everyone for your replies.


Lillymae, the main criteria for Jenna's diagnosis has been nystagmus, ataxia (mostly rear legs) and scanning with no head tilt that does not seem to permanently resolve with antibiotic treatment. We've tried baytril for otitis media and cephalexin for possibly inner ear infection. She has a lot of wax and debris in her ears and cleaning doesn't seem to get much out. Any time I put cleanser in her ears it makes her nystagmus and stumbling worse, so I hate doing it, but at least one of her eardrums looks fine, the vet can't see the other.


Her bloods are fine but for slightly high sodium, slightly low thyroid and BUN/Creatinine being a bit elevated-which they attributed to visitational stress. When we removed her metacam that she was taking for stiffness and thickening knees, she had much more trouble walking and her nystagmus went crazy.



All this started months ago with just one episode of me placing her on the floor to hook her up for a walk and she stumbled heavily and seemed like she couldn't get her feet under her to stand. This episode lasted only a few minutes but seemed like a lifetime and scared me to death. When I took her to the vet, she said she was "goose stepping" with her hind legs and insisted she had cerebellar deterioration and prescribed nothing to help her. Because she is blind I've been seeing her pick up her feet more because she's afraid to run into something and trip over it. (Shoes sitting at the door, etc.) The movement was barely perceptible. There was also some question that the eyedrops she was taking for glaucoma might be part of the problem but we've changed types since then with no improvement.


The vet wants me to withhold her metacam for 24 hours and then dose her with prednisone (I think it's 1/4 of a .5 milligram tablet?) once daily to see if it improves her symptoms. She believes either she has a tumor in her brain or inner ear, or that some kind of inflammation is causing the problems. No prognosis gives her more than a few weeks to a month to live.



They recently acquired a CT scanner at my vet but it's a $750 charge, plus they claim any imaging isn't going to change treatment options.


So far she is stable with 1/2 tablet baytril a day (for some reason it helps keep her upright, we don't know why, but if I use a full tablet her nystagmus worsens...no idea why that happens either) and .15 mls dog metacam a day for inflammation. One more note is that she had systemic vasculitis in 2013 that was only resolved by placing her on 3 months worth of pentoxifylline and a vegan diet. We still feed the Natural Balance kibble (no longer DVP which I think has tanked the quality but it's the only option we can afford) but a little over a year ago I started reintroducing boiled chicken because she'd begun forming cataracts and I feared without meat protein she wasn't getting enough nutrition. Regardless, the cataracts advance significantly within the year and she is now totally blind. I've been told this could be another sign of CNS disease. What I wondered is, could she be having some kind of vasculitis related problem? Would it cause these symptoms? The only way to tell would be to remove meat from her diet again, but then I feel like she should have more nutrition than just this kibble. She used to be almost 8 pounds when we lived in Alaska over 3 years ago. She wobbles between 4.7 and 5 pounds now and that's while being sedentary. When food is on offer, she acts like she's starving and wants extra helpings and I'm afraid to give her too much for fear she'll pop.


I know she needs a neurologist, but possibly the nearest one I could Google is in Grant's Pass, otherwise I'm looking at all the way up in Springfield and I'd need a referral. If my vet thinks she's dying anyway, I don't know if insisting is going to get me one.


And I have to ask myself how much I want to put her through and I'm not wealthy. I want her to have safe and proper diagnostics, but I also don't want her to suffer.


I don't know what would be best to do. My heart is broken for her.

[ladyjane]

How old is she? I would use that as a guide to making decisions about tests.

What does meat have to do with cutaneous vasculitis?

Kibble is enough. It should have all of the nutrients needed.

Why can't the vet view her ear? As for cleaning, have your vet do it!

Nystagmus is neuro and as Ellie May suggested, neuro would be a great option. If it is not possible, a general vet can do basics ... and often if a client is limited on funds or if a pup is very old and testing isn't going to change the plan going forward, prednisone can be helpful. My DIL had a pup who was 15 and she suddenly went blind one day and was stumbling around. She ended up putting her on prednisone and she had another 6 great months with her. They were sure it was a lesion...surgery was not an option.
So...cannot hurt to try the pred IMHO

[Jenna AK]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

How old is she? I would use that as a guide to making decisions about tests.

What does meat have to do with cutaneous vasculitis?

Kibble is enough. It should have all of the nutrients needed.

Why can't the vet view her ear? As for cleaning, have your vet do it!

Nystagmus is neuro and as Ellie May suggested, neuro would be a great option. If it is not possible, a general vet can do basics ... and often if a client is limited on funds or if a pup is very old and testing isn't going to change the plan going forward, prednisone can be helpful. My DIL had a pup who was 15 and she suddenly went blind one day and was stumbling around. She ended up putting her on prednisone and she had another 6 great months with her. They were sure it was a lesion...surgery was not an option.
So...cannot hurt to try the pred IMHO

Thank you for replying ladyjane.
Jenna is just a few weeks short of 11 years old.


Meat proteins were thought to be the cause of her vasculitis, which they believed was internal, not just cutaneous. She could eat no meat without breaking out anew in hives and rashes. Vegetarian kibble was the only thing she could manage without a reaction. She was also treated with pentoxifylline for 3 months. We now think it was one of the tainted dog treats from China that started this ordeal for her, but she's gone 6 years without meat in her diet and I feared reintroducing it may have caused a relapse. She was so puffy when she got sick all those years ago it took 4 days in the hospital to get her even remotely able to go home. While she has no obvious signs of inflammation other than the presumed CNS disease, I did worry that I'd done something wrong giving her chicken again. Of course, no one wants to believe something this debilitating is a condition that can't be resolved or is genetic...you want to be able to blame it on something you've screwed up that you can fix.


I've had the vet clean her ears but even she has trouble getting them completely clear, hence why she wanted me to continue it every day with a gentle cleanser she gave me. I keep trying to do it properly but I don't think I get it quite right and of course I have no otoscope to review my efforts. Jenna has rather strong opinions about stuff going into her ears and none of them positive. It's frustrating.


We began the pred today and while it hasn't seemed to cause any reactions like steroids did to her back in 2013, it's a small dose and any benefit is likely to take awhile to show. For now I'm glad I didn't have to rush her to emergency.


Thank you very much for your help.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Jenna AK

Thank you for replying ladyjane.
Jenna is just a few weeks short of 11 years old.


Meat proteins were thought to be the cause of her vasculitis, which they believed was internal, not just cutaneous. She could eat no meat without breaking out anew in hives and rashes. Vegetarian kibble was the only thing she could manage without a reaction. She was also treated with pentoxifylline for 3 months. We now think it was one of the tainted dog treats from China that started this ordeal for her, but she's gone 6 years without meat in her diet and I feared reintroducing it may have caused a relapse. She was so puffy when she got sick all those years ago it took 4 days in the hospital to get her even remotely able to go home. While she has no obvious signs of inflammation other than the presumed CNS disease, I did worry that I'd done something wrong giving her chicken again. Of course, no one wants to believe something this debilitating is a condition that can't be resolved or is genetic...you want to be able to blame it on something you've screwed up that you can fix.


I've had the vet clean her ears but even she has trouble getting them completely clear, hence why she wanted me to continue it every day with a gentle cleanser she gave me. I keep trying to do it properly but I don't think I get it quite right and of course I have no otoscope to review my efforts. Jenna has rather strong opinions about stuff going into her ears and none of them positive. It's frustrating.


We began the pred today and while it hasn't seemed to cause any reactions like steroids did to her back in 2013, it's a small dose and any benefit is likely to take awhile to show. For now I'm glad I didn't have to rush her to emergency.


Thank you very much for your help.

Interesting about the meat. Thank you!

I hope she starts to improve.....keep us posted

[Jenna AK]

Just a quick update to let you all know that Jenna has been taking prednisone for approximately 2 weeks now and is stable and able to function almost as normal but for brief episodes of nystagmus and evening agitation. She's up to 5.6 lbs and is always hungry, which I know is a side effect but she is on the lowest dose possible to avoid more troublesome ones.
We're also looking into acupuncture to help with the bit of gimp that she has in her rear legs since she's been off metacam. One of the vets at my practice has been certified for it. Does anyone know if it's necessary to have any specialized testing done before proceeding with this line of treatment? They will do laser pain relief on her first before moving on to the traditional approach.


Also, our other dog, (border collie/corgi mix) is having secondary surgery next week to clear up a pesky anal gland that needs residual tissue removed, and any and all good vibes for this are welcome.


Thanks for keeping Jenna and myself in your thoughts and prayers.

[Dayswalters]

I’m glad your baby is stable and I’ll keep both pups in my prayers.

[nanajoy]

I am happy to hear that Jenna is improving! Thank you for the update, and hope that she continues to improve. Positive thoughts are coming your way for your other guy's upcoming surgery