16 week puppy ate a pill...

[ladyjane]

Happy to hear that Fynn is fine!

[MyBabyFynnlie]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Happy to hear that Fynn is fine!

Thank you so much! Me, too!

I've decided that my room - where Fynn hangs out most of the time - is getting a thorough cleaning this weekend. No more paper on the floor, no more little plastic things he thinks he's going to chew on. Oh no. Not any more.

[ladyjane]

Oh, puppies can definitely keep you hopping. It is amazing the things they can get into! I have an eight month old foster that is a busy boy!

[MyBabyFynnlie]

Wow. I'm glad for you! They're so much fun but sooo much work. I had entertained the idea of getting Fynnlie a friend - before Fynnlie came home, I was already planning my second one. But now, after having Fynn for seven weeks... I'm so not ready for another one yet. Whew. So much work and so little sleep!

[kjc]

Originally Posted by MyBabyFynnlie

Yes! Fynnlie is doing wonderful this morning! He doesn't seem to be effected at all. The vet checked him over and did a fecal on him. They said he's fine, that he probably didn't eat it. Which is wonderful.

Thanks for checking on him, I really appreciate it!

No problem... so glad to hear he's doing fine. Not to pester you, but if he hasn't done bloodwork.... even just a pre op test to be sure his liver enzymes are good.... I personally will worry about him until those tests are run... and that is IMHO and that's just me.

[MyBabyFynnlie]

Originally Posted by kjc

No problem... so glad to hear he's doing fine. Not to pester you, but if he hasn't done bloodwork.... even just a pre op test to be sure his liver enzymes are good.... I personally will worry about him until those tests are run... and that is IMHO and that's just me.

He's going back next week to just have a 'well-puppy' check up. I might have labs done then. We'll see. The Vet wantst to give him the 'dog flu' immunization. I'm not sure yet...

[kjc]

Originally Posted by MyBabyFynnlie

He's going back next week to just have a 'well-puppy' check up. I might have labs done then. We'll see. The Vet wantst to give him the 'dog flu' immunization. I'm not sure yet...

I don't want to sound like I'm telling you what to do... so forgive me if I fail in that respect...

General vaccine info:

This link has vaccine info: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html

The 'flu' vac is new so isn't listed as a non-core vac there.

No vaccine should be given within 3-4 weeks of a Rabies vaccine. It takes that long for the body to work producing antibodies against what you're vaccinating for. Giving additional vaccines too soon before or after makes it so the body has to split it's defences and make antibodies for both, so less antibodies are made for each. The pup may be protected, but not as well as he could be if the individual vaccine is allowed to do it's job completely, before introducing another vaccine to it's system.

Many of us on YT are learning that with vaccines, less is better, especially for our little dogs. Small breed dogs have encountered problems because of their size and the amount of vaccine given (same amount given to a 100+ pound dog). Research is currently being done but change is slow in coming.

You also need to be aware of the effects of overvaccinating your Yorkie. GME is a devastating disease that is immune mediated, and too much stimulation of the pup's immune system may bring on an assult of the production of antibodies that will attack the pup's own system. Pups that tend to have allergies are more likely to develop this problem. Until you know for sure, I would err on the side of caution.

In short, your pup needs DHPP, then in 3-4 weeks Rabies (throughout his life it should be separated) Many are choosing to have Titers done to check for individual immunity levels, rather than to do repeat vaccinations. after the initial puppy series

The 'Flu' vaccine, dental vaccine, new Lepto vaccine, Giardia vaccine are all new on the market and IMHO haven't been proven or tested enough to be deemed safe for me to give to my Yorkies.

The old Lepto and Coronavirus vaccinces have caused problems in small breed dogs. I do not give these to mine.

I strongly urge you to please do some research before giving any more vaccines to your pup. I will help you find info if you need help... just PM me. Vaccinating Yorkies has become a very serious issue of late and I would hate to see something happen to your baby. I am wary of vets who try to push the newer vaccines... but vets do make a lot of profit on vaccines, so you need to be aware and educate yourself to keep your puppy safe.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by kjc

I don't want to sound like I'm telling you what to do... so forgive me if I fail in that respect...

General vaccine info:

This link has vaccine info: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html

The 'flu' vac is new so isn't listed as a non-core vac there.

No vaccine should be given within 3-4 weeks of a Rabies vaccine. It takes that long for the body to work producing antibodies against what you're vaccinating for. Giving additional vaccines too soon before or after makes it so the body has to split it's defences and make antibodies for both, so less antibodies are made for each. The pup may be protected, but not as well as he could be if the individual vaccine is allowed to do it's job completely, before introducing another vaccine to it's system.

Many of us on YT are learning that with vaccines, less is better, especially for our little dogs. Small breed dogs have encountered problems because of their size and the amount of vaccine given (same amount given to a 100+ pound dog). Research is currently being done but change is slow in coming.

You also need to be aware of the effects of overvaccinating your Yorkie. GME is a devastating disease that is immune mediated, and too much stimulation of the pup's immune system may bring on an assult of the production of antibodies that will attack the pup's own system. Pups that tend to have allergies are more likely to develop this problem. Until you know for sure, I would err on the side of caution.

In short, your pup needs DHPP, then in 3-4 weeks Rabies (throughout his life it should be separated) Many are choosing to have Titers done to check for individual immunity levels, rather than to do repeat vaccinations. after the initial puppy series

The 'Flu' vaccine, dental vaccine, new Lepto vaccine, Giardia vaccine are all new on the market and IMHO haven't been proven or tested enough to be deemed safe for me to give to my Yorkies.

The old Lepto and Coronavirus vaccinces have caused problems in small breed dogs. I do not give these to mine.

I strongly urge you to please do some research before giving any more vaccines to your pup. I will help you find info if you need help... just PM me. Vaccinating Yorkies has become a very serious issue of late and I would hate to see something happen to your baby. I am wary of vets who try to push the newer vaccines... but vets do make a lot of profit on vaccines, so you need to be aware and educate yourself to keep your puppy safe.

While I agree that people need to educate themselves about vaccines, I must say that this reference to GME is concerning. I keep seeing this pop up in threads on YT and to date I have found nothing that indicates that vaccines trigger GME. If there is research to back this, then I would certainly love to see it. It really concerns me because a lot of people read this forum and to give information that might frighten people into not giving vaccines is worrisome to me. There are people who believe that vaccines are a trigger for GME....there are also people who believe that vaccines in children cause autism. In both cases, to my knowledge, neither is validated by research.

I also do not agree that titers should be done at one year following the puppy vaccinations. A booster is recommended at one year and I believe Jean Dodds also recommends that? Correct me if I am wrong.

We all need to keep in mind that dogs are still dying from Parvo and Distemper because people do not vaccinate. There is such a thing as risk vs benefit. That is true in vaccines and in medications.

The OP has a puppy and I do hope that she will take into consideration that not everyone on YT is an authority on vaccines...or anything vet related. It is good to take information here...but please speak with your vet about your concerns AND do your own research. I am not a believer that the majority of vets give vaccines for profit....they give them because the SEE FIRST HAND the results of NOT VACCINATING WHICH CAN BE DEADLY.

As to a flu vaccine....I personally would not give it to any of my pups. I don't even get a flu vaccine myself. To each his own I suppose. The risk of a pup dying from the flu because it is not vaccinated is MUCH less than the risk of an unvaccinated dog dying from distemper. Parvo can be treated (although it is often fatal), distemper is DEADLY.

Yes, some vets do over vaccinate and we all need to be educated consumers; but that does not mean we should be so frightened that we do not protect our dogs from deadly diseases.

[kjc]

Thanks for correcting me... I need to explain further...

Originally Posted by ladyjane

While I agree that people need to educate themselves about vaccines, I must say that this reference to GME is concerning. I keep seeing this pop up in threads on YT and to date I have found nothing that indicates that vaccines trigger GME. If there is research to back this, then I would certainly love to see it. It really concerns me because a lot of people read this forum and to give information that might frighten people into not giving vaccines is worrisome to me. There are people who believe that vaccines are a trigger for GME....there are also people who believe that vaccines in children cause autism. In both cases, to my knowledge, neither is validated by research.

Puppies need vaccinations... the diseases they prevent are far worse as they are preventable through vaccination. The problems come from vaccinating for diseases that are treatable or preventable, and as I am talking about vaccinating very small dogs and puppies, there is a health concern of stimulating the immune system too much, especially all at one time, or by giving vaccines too close together. A week is not long enough after a Rabies vac or a DHPP vac to be giving another vaccine. It is much safer and more effective to wait 3-4 weeks.

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I also do not agree that titers should be done at one year following the puppy vaccinations. A booster is recommended at one year and I believe Jean Dodds also recommends that? Correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry...my mistake... I consider 'the puppy series' to include the initial set of puppy shots done at under 1 year of age and the boosters at one year, Rabies at 6 months (or later if pup is tiny) and a booster at one year. Then, in Maryland, the recommendation is every 3 years for DHPP and Rabies for the rest of the pet's life. So it's important, too, to know what your state laws are concerning vaccinations.

Originally Posted by ladyjane

We all need to keep in mind that dogs are still dying from Parvo and Distemper because people do not vaccinate. There is such a thing as risk vs benefit. That is true in vaccines and in medications.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by ladyjane

The OP has a puppy and I do hope that she will take into consideration that not everyone on YT is an authority on vaccines...or anything vet related. It is good to take information here...but please speak with your vet about your concerns AND do your own research. I am not a believer that the majority of vets give vaccines for profit....they give them because the SEE FIRST HAND the results of NOT VACCINATING WHICH CAN BE DEADLY.

I just wonder what the OPs vet will tell her as he is trying to sell her a non-core vaccination and wants to give it too close to the Rabies vac she just got for her puppy, as per Dr Dodds, who is an authority on vaccines.
Link to Dr Dodds Vaccine Protocol for 2010: DR. JEAN DODDS' CANINE VACCINATION PROTOCOL ? 2010) I know it will be up to the OP to decide what is best for her puppy. And she may want to ask her vet some questions about this vaccine (how long will it protect my puppy from getting the flu?, how many dogs has he seen at his practice that have contracted the flu?, what are the possible side effects from the vaccine?, etc)

Originally Posted by ladyjane

As to a flu vaccine....I personally would not give it to any of my pups. I don't even get a flu vaccine myself. To each his own I suppose. The risk of a pup dying from the flu because it is not vaccinated is MUCH less than the risk of an unvaccinated dog dying from distemper. Parvo can be treated (although it is often fatal), distemper is DEADLY.

Yes, some vets do over vaccinate and we all need to be educated consumers; but that does not mean we should be so frightened that we do not protect our dogs from deadly diseases.

I totally agree, and in no way meant to say that the puppy vaccine series and boosters should not be given. Those are core vaccines and all dogs need them. There is a better way to get them done and to have them be more effective and safer for the puppy, is all I was trying to get across to the OP, and all who read this thread.

The OP got her puppy the Rabies vaccine less than a week ago. When she goes back for the well puppy visit, her puppy's immune system will be working full tilt on producing antibodies for Rabies, It takes 3-4 weeks for this activity to subside and die down. At which point, when the Rabies antibody activity is done, it is safer to then give another vaccine, if the OP so decides. To give another vaccine when the puppy's immune system is already compromised and busy on one thing, to introduce another vaccine at that point could possibly cause a problem. Not all the time, and every dog is different, but the possibility is there. Why not wait 2-3 weeks longer, till the pup's immune system is more available to do the job and can do it better? The OP would be avoiding certain risks, and her puppy would be able to make a larger number of antibodies and therefore be better protected.

[ladyjane]

I have been a pet owner for many, many years. While I realize some people believe that vets are involved in a conspiracy to make more money, I feel that my pups would not have lived the long healthy lives they did without their knowledge, guidance and care.

In his defense, at least the OPs vet did not just willy nilly give a bunch of vaccines in that one visit. We all know that some vets who probably are not doing a lot of continuing education continue to give all vaccines together. While some people may think he did not wait long enough, and that can be debated, the point is he waited. He mentioned the flu vaccine to the OP and we have given our opinions; but she needs to read more about them and then go back and discuss this with her vet imho.
I am going to post one more link here that I believe is very important for the OP and anyone else wanting to know more about vaccines to read.
http://www.aahanet.org/resources/guidelines.aspx

[MyBabyFynnlie]

Well, good morning! I was away from the computer this weekend and this is my first time back to YT. Can I just say 'thanks?' for all of that info? I really do appreciate it. But, I don't think I'm going to get the 'flu' shot for Fynnlie. I'm going back next week to get a 'well check up' and discuss the flu shot further. I don't want to overvaccinate him and I don't want to undervaccinate him. But, because of the newness of this shot, I'm not really comfortable with it. I don't even like to get the flu shot so getting one for Fynnlie is still up in the air. Litterally.

My Vet is an old farm vet. He's been doing this job for at least 45 years. I took my Sheltie to him and trusted him with Jaxx's health for 10 1/2 years and it would have been longer had he not passed away. My Vet might not be the most up-to-date one out there, but as far as knowing his stuff and being up front with his patient's parents, there's no one else in my area that I would trust more.

So, I will look at the information you both provided and read through it as I am able. I will also consult my Vet because I trust him as the caretaker for my baby.

[kjc]

Great... that's good to hear. Sometimes old farm vets are the best! Nothing like experience.

Actually, when these newer vaccines came out, I was all for them. They sound really good. Why not prevent dental disease... especially in Yorkies who are notorious for having bad teeth? Why not prevent Giardia? I don't like having to give meds every spring and fall for diarrhea. Having to medicate on a regular basis is not such a good thing unless a pet has a chronic condition. Why not prevent the flu! We all know that's a horrible sickness.

The first year I worked as a vet tech, I vaccinated my own Yorkie with Lepto. Twice. I didn't know it can cause bad reactions in small breed dogs. Thank God she was a larger Yorkie and she did not have a reaction to it either time. I worked as the night ER tech and didn't become real familiar with vaccines till I was moved to the day shift. She was a nurse dog... she would alert me to any pup in the ICU that was having a problem. She was right 95% of the time. This was a natural behavior for her, no training done on my part.

She always got her vaccines all at once also. She would be totally knocked out for 2 days or so, and the vets said that was probably from the Rabies vac and they didn't seem concerned about it. As I learned and worked with different vets at the same practice, one mentioned about giving them separately, so I tried that and she handled both vaccines without getting so wiped out. But that was ten years ago, too, and not until much later in life for her.

She also ate crap from the grocery store. And table scraps. And she chewed metal jeans zippers apart and would swallow the slider thing. I never knew till I found one in her poop one day. And Rawhide chew toys. She lived til she was 16 years old and I had her PTS because she developed Osteoscarcoma in her jaw, of all places. She would bleed every now and then, and I knew one day she would just bleed out and die while I was at work. My vet was against putting her through surgery as it would involve removing a large portion of her jaw, and healing would be difficult as would eating and drinking, and he felt she would suffer more from the surgery than it would help her. So we quietly said our goodbyes, I fed her a last piece of pizza, which she loved, and we parted ways.

For the life of me, with what I know now, I can't fiqure out why she lived as long as she did! Her parents were owned by a friend who purchased them through a pet shop, and they were huge. She was 10 pounds most of her life. All I can say is she was one tough dog!

I think the modern Yorkies are a bit more delicate than she was. I know if I look at mine sideways, they have diarrhea, or go lame. Now I feed a premium food, no rawhide, no table scraps, harnesses only, minimal vaccines, and wellness checks at the vets.

As I was considering the dental vaccine, the breeder of one of my girls called me to say her vet recommended it and she got 3 of her dogs vaccinated with it. They all had reactions and took days for them to recover. That is when I really started reading up on vaccines. Plus my current vet recommends not to get them for my Yorkies, as they are just too new to the market. In a year or two or three I may reconsider, but I will research them all again before making a new decision.

Sorry about the long post....

[ladyjane]

My vet is very current and is always doing continuing education. She does NOT recommend Lepto, flu or the dental vaccines!

As for the OP and the no flu thing...I can only say that one of the sickest winters I ever had was the one year I got a flu shot. I had the flu twice that year. I dont care what they say about different strains.....I can honestly say never again and never live to regret saying it. Even if I were considered high risk, I would not get one.

[MyBabyFynnlie]

Fynn doesn't get the crap from the grocery store, he gets BB or Sammy Snacks which my vet recommends. It's not a nation wide brand, just something local that a family created about four years ago because they're dog was allergic to everything on the market. It's the only thing that Fynn really likes, so he gets it.

My mother is guilty of giving him table scraps, but I've limited it to only meats, cheese and veggies. No bread, no pasta, no corn, etc.

He doesn't seem too interested in metal, he'd prefer to chew on wood, strings, cotton... You know, that stuff.

So, as far as getting more shots goes, I will be talking to my vet before I do anything more! Ugh, the drama.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

My vet is very current and is always doing continuing education. She does NOT recommend Lepto, flu or the dental vaccines!

As for the OP and the no flu thing...I can only say that one of the sickest winters I ever had was the one year I got a flu shot. I had the flu twice that year. I dont care what they say about different strains.....I can honestly say never again and never live to regret saying it. Even if I were considered high risk, I would not get one.

You reminded me of a situation... remember when the supply of flu vaccines ran out a few years back? I overheard some elderly people having a discussion in the grocery store about it. It was very sad... they all were sure they would die that year... they were discussing checking their wills and stuff.

I felt so bad for them, so I butted in and explained that even in prior years, the track record for the CDC predicting the exact strain of flu that would hit the US was pretty bad... that they had actually gotten their previous flu shots for strains that never hit! So, not being able to get one that particular year probably wouldn't make a difference, because when it did become available there was no guarantee that it would be for the strain that hits the US anyway.

I saw the worry lines virtually dissappear from their faces, geez they all looked 10 years younger right before my eyes! That stress alone could have put them in the grave! I told them to definitely discuss it with their doctors, which they had intended to do anyway!