Giardia and Coccidiosis...
 

So this is my first post on YT. And unfortunately, it happens to be in the worst section of the thread...

To make a short story short...

We brought home Lola last Sunday (August 11th). She is a Biewer Yorkshire Terrier and was born on April 20th, 2010 making her almost 4 months old. She came home to us fine and weighed in at a very small 1.5 pounds. The breeder (who I will keep anonymous for now) said that she was most likely going to top out at 3.5 - 4 pounds max. She came home fine and was the brightest and most playful puppy ever. Then all of a sudden, starting this past Monday (August 9th) her stools got VERY runny pretty much to the point of diarrhea (she went to the bathroom about 6 times that day). Fearing something was wrong or that we were just over feeding her (she was eating Wellness Wet Puppy Food (1tbsp in the morning) and Orijen Puppy Kibble (about a little less than a half cup a day)). After the initial onset of the loose stools we decreased the amount and her poop went back to normal on Tuesday (August 10th). And then, at midnight today (August 11th) she began to have very loose stools and had even a trace of bright red blood at the end. Thinking that this was just another case of her maybe just not feeling 100% from overfeeding the day before I didn't think much of it.. So we hopped in bed to go to sleep and guess what, about 40 minutes later she hopped off the bed and went diarrhea again with the same consistency and again with a trace of blood at the end of the stool. Fast forward to 11:05AM this morning and she had made a total of 9 trips to the bathroom with each stool getting less and less brown with more and more mucus and eventually a 50/50 split of purely mucus and blood. We rushed her to the vet immediately and she was diagnosed with both giardia and both coccidiosis. The vet personally said in his 30 years of practicing that he has not once seen a giardia test come up positive THAT quickly.. So we swallowed the $800 estimate for the day care (she is on IVs, in a thermo regulated den, and a possibility of a night at the E.R. if she isn't back on track by 6pm today). Her temperature read at 97.2 degrees and the vet estimated that she was nearing 5% dehydration (along with severe cramps because of the fact that she was just straining and had emptied her entire colon throughout the night).

To sum it all up... I was wondering if I could get an opinion from maybe some of you breeders out there or anyone else who has had similar or same experiences to maybe help us through these times and help us understand what is going on in an even more basic level than what our vet described. I'm really curious and a bit furious as to why the breeder had sold us such a sick puppy if what the vet said is true (the vet said that the incubation period for both giardia and especially coccidiosis is a bit longer than the total of 11 days that Lola has been living with us in the house).

I feel as if the breeder should play a role in terms of the financial aspects of the treatment. We paid $2500 for Lola and now with this, the total will most likely easily run up to $3500 - $4000 for the puppy. Our family loves her to death and has already become so attached to this little ball of energy and sass..

To cliff note everything up..

-Lola has been with us for 11 days
-Lola is 1.9 pounds as of today (August 11th)
-Lola has been eating Wellness Puppy Food (Wet) and Orijen Dry Puppy Kibble
-Lola came down with giardia and coccidiosis symptoms roughly on the 8th day of being with us
-Lola is in critical condition as of now according to the vet

What I want to find out is this..

1) Is it right for me to call the breeder and let her know about all of this and maybe put the blame on her for this mess?
2) Is coccidiosis a fairly common theme amongst puppies?
3) We really shouldn't be worried about a dead puppy right especially since we got her in to the vet not less than 12 hours after the initial symptoms?

And I apologize in advance if a lot of the context in this body of message is just confusing or just has no trail because I literally just got back from the vet and a flood of emotions are just running through me right now...

Any help/suggestions/anything will be better than nothing. Thanks in advance everyone.

This sounds exactly like my situation... I dont know if you have read my thread but I got a puppy last month and had this exact thing happen to me. she had both giardia and coccidia and was found positive 3 days after being home. she was so sick she had to be put on an iv for 2 days. I think you got your puppy the same breeder as i did, my girl was born on 4/24/1010 and i was looking at another very tiny biewer pup that was only 1 lb and was born 4/20/2010. ill pm you and ask. i would deffinatly contact the breeder. tell her what you have found and ask for compensation. there is a puppy lemon law in Ca that says if the puppy is sick when comming home that you are intitled to a refund of the vet cost. if you got her from the same "breeder" i did, then you will find that she will not help. but if its a reputable breeder then she will want to help you with vet cost. whatever you do, do not hide this from the breeder. giardia and coccidia are contagious, even to humans, so you want to make sure the breeder doesnt get an epidemic. anyways, hope your girl does good! she is so tiny, but just make sure she eats and drinks water. sounds like you will be on the road to recovery soon. my girl has been sick since we got her about 4 weeks ago. she is just now getting better, so its a long road, but it will all end ok. :]

Thanks for the reply Lola (great name by the way hah!). Lola has been doing a lot better and she should be coming home with us tonight (crossing fingers). But on a slightly scary side note, the vet looked over Lola's blood work from when she was in bad shape (yesterday morning) and noted that her blood sugar level was very low (40s, when average should be between 60 - 140ish). I don't know if that was because she hadn't eaten in almost 16-20 hours or if its a sign of a possible liver shunt? The vet said that it could be a liver shunt and that we should run a bile acid test on her sometime in the next few weeks (he said that when a puppy is going through an intense battle with parasites or bacteria that the liver should be pumping at least a little bit of glucose into her system to keep her up?? I might be a bit confused about what he said but that was the gist of it..) If anyone else whose dealt with liver shunts could possibly explain in layman's terms what I should be looking out for that would be great (Lola has never showed signs of seizuring or hobbling or anything like that [that was what I figured out from a simple google search as symptoms for possible liver shunt/hypoglycemia] so i'm hoping that it was just because of her serious bout with diarrhea and what not).

I would definitely contact the breeder and tell her about this situation as soon as possible! Did you get a contract with your baby? 2500$ is SO much money to spend on a sick puppy! The breeder should be responsible to help with the vet expenses. You shouldn't have to deal with this, this should be a time of joy. I know exactly how you feel I had a 10 week old puppy pass away a couple years ago. I had him for 3 weeks and he had checked out fine at the vets and passed away shortly after. Some breeders just don't care about these little babies and the families who are hurt by their bad breeding!

I wouldn't worry about the liver shunt right now. It's a good idea to do the bile acid test in a couple weeks. With her size and age I'd really say that it was probably low blood sugar from not eating for so many hours! These little babies can go down hill so fast when they are tiny and don't eat.

I do pray that Lola will make a speedy recovery. It sounds like she is in good hands. Sadly, it seems that we are hearing more and more instances of puppies that have coccidia and giardia. It is fairly common in the larger breeding kennels. You should definitely contact the breeder but most likely she has put in her contract that she will not cover parasites. The breeder should have had the puppy checked before she sold her. The problem with coccidia and giardia is that it lies dormant in the dogs intestines and it is sometimes hard to detect in a stool sample unless the dog is having an outbreak. I think a reputable breeder should be willing to help you with the vet costs. You will always have to watch Lola carefully because it is very difficult to get rid of the giardia from what I have heard. She will probably have to be on medication for quite awhile. Good luck with your baby.

You are in California, so do a search for the Puppy Lemon Law. Coccidia is a parasite that is transmitted from dog to dog and can live in the intestines for a while. It tends to act up during periods of extreme stress (like moving a puppy from one home to another).

The incubation period of coccidia is 13 days. So if she was only in your home 8, then she picked it up from the breeder.

http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/lemonlaw.html

So we just brought Lola back home and she is acting her like old self again. She passed her first stool here (of course on our dining rug ...) and it was solid! Hopefully over the next few days of giardia treatment she will be at 100%.

On another note, I was wondering if anyone could give me input on how I should approach the breeder or what I should say to her in order to get her to comply? We're thinking of going to small claims if she does not want to meet us in terms of covering all of the vet bills.

If anyone can chime in with prior experiences in terms of talking to breeders please help! This is our first puppy let alone first dog and we just had to go through this crazy roller coaster ride of an ordeal..

Just send them an email explaing everything that happened. just let them know that it was stressful for you and you really hope that they could help by paying the vet bills. explain that you can show them what you have had to pay for. if they don't comply then show them the lemon law for CA. if they still dont comply then maybe threaten with small claims court. hopefully after the first email they will want to help you. if they don't then i would be more insistant because it is not right for a breeder to sell a sick pup and not take responsibility.

hope this helps. i'm so glad to hear that lola is doing better!

So I just called the breeder simply to tell her what went down. She got angry and started yelling IMMEDIATELY upon me even slightly attempting to put the blame on her. She continuously stated that the giardia and coccidia were contracted AT the vet during our initial check up which was 72 hours after we picked her up from the breeder.

She says that she treats ALL of her puppies with giardia medicine for 10 days prior to selling them.. And she continues to say that the incubation period for giardia and coccidia can be 48 hours.. (she was just yelling and talking really fast and would cut me off if I tried to say something as well.. which made me think that she was simply trying to shove random facts down my throat to make me second guess my vet and what not) which is funny because how would she know when a puppy was going to be sold?

She also said that she does stool tests for giardia and coccidia on ALL of her pups.. Which again raises another question.. Can a breeder be doctoring puppies? Such as having all of these medicines on hand (she specifically stated to me that she has every medicine on hand and available so that if we ever have another emergency to call her before going to the vet) because to me that seems like illegal practicing.

Another interesting thing is that she says that she is a "rescue" house as well.. as in she takes in dogs from other people who just can't handle raising the dog. Which struck an alarm in my mind in terms of her bringing in random dogs that might be carrying coccidia and giardia into the home while all of her pups are there.

In all honesty, she seems like a very legitimate breeder. I'm just a bit taken back that she is 100% sure that the dog got all of these problems AFTER she came to our home (even though she's been here for a mere 11 days..). She also continued to reiterate the fact that "when the puppy left my care she was the most beautiful and healthy puppy ever". Thats great and all but of course she had to be a beautiful and healthy puppy or else you wouldn't have been able to sell it to us in the first place..

I'm going through an emotional ride from stress and anxiety to now anger and frustration that there is such a lack of integrity within the dog world. I for sure will never recommend this breeder to anyone in the Bay Area and if you would like to know who the breeder is, just shoot me a PM.

Is she the breeder of your Lola or was this dog one of her rescues??

I am thinking if she is taking in other dogs as rescues maybe Lola was exposed that way.????

Just a thought!

You both may be interested in this thread....specifically posts by the author named Romans....starting at 56.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...e-puppy-4.html

here are some blurry cell phone pictures of lola before she got sick.

She is Adorable!! Congrats on your new baby:exclaim:

I have already disscused the possibility of us getting our pups from the same breeder "romans", but its a different person. sounds really familiar doesnt it though. this is my review on the breeder "romans" :

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...ie-kisses.html

She is beyond adorable, and I am so sorry she is sick and you are going thru all this instead of just enjoying your new little one. I pray that she makes a full fast recovery.

One of my pups came home with coccidia and I had to treat the other pup who is 3 months older too, just in case. Giardia is tougher, and dealing with both is a lot. Did the vet give you instructions for cleaning the potty soiled places in your home so you won't re-infect? With such a tiny pup you do have extra worries already, so be sure you know how to watch for hypoglycemia and give her Nutrical if she shows signs or if she isn't eating.

Thanks for all the replies guys! Makes me feel like I'm not in this battle alone..

We wiped our entire hardwood floor down with clorox antibacterial wipes. But I have a feeling we need to go at it with a 10/1 ammonia solution ? Any safe-ER solutions that you would recommend? Or heck, just give me your pointers on how to really get rid of this nasty thing called giardia (worst part is.. my friend actually came down with giardia last year and he was STRUGGLING [and the dude is a body builder for crying out loud too haha] so I can't even imagine how much of a toll it took on a little 1.9 pound puppy..).

So after speaking to the breeder over the phone she sent this facebook message to my younger sister (she has a facebook page for her "ranch". and by this time, i'm going to let the cat out of the bag and tell you all that the breeders name is Kelly Collier and she runs Collier Ranch Yorkies here in Northern California [408 Area code to be exact]. Here is her facebook page.. Login | Facebook

and here is the content of the message.. seems like a purely scare tactic.

"Lola- Was beautiful and completely vet checked before I sold her. I have records. I will if taken to court have the right to request the return of the dog . This is usual and ordinary. I extend this offer now and will by law request the return of the dog within 24 hrs. to myself .So sorry you feel I sold you a bad dog. I did not. If your vet was doing his job correctly he would have done a very common stool sample and put your puppy on a parasite control program and this issue would have never flared up. In yrs of raising dogs this is the very first time I have ever heard of a vet forgetting to do a stool sample or using the excuse that her shots were not finished.

Please return the dog to me if you further refuse to accept this is your vets mistake. KC"

this lady is really starting to press my buttons.

You need to use ammonia. Bleach and wipes are ineffective. Also wash any bedding, blankets, etc.

Just like you, my first post on this site was to vent and complain about the breeder who sold me a tiny puppy with giardia. When I complained to her she said that it wasn't possible because she had wormed the puppy prior to selling him to me. I brought the puppy to the vet the very next day I got him for a checkup and gave them a stool sample which tested positive for giardia - right away. He was immediately put on panacur for about a week. Although it helped a little, it didn't fully work. Then he was put on another medicine - don't remember the name - but it was in a pill form - for another week. We think he's clear now (at least the stool specimen came back negative) but I'm thinking of testing him again. I was just wondering - did you not go to the vet as soon as you got your puppy - did you wait? Because mine never got to the extreme condition that yours did and mine came to us at 1.7 lbs also. A few weeks later and he is now 2.2 lbs at 6 and a half months. Hope all goes well with your puppy - but yes - you have to keep everything clean, clean, clean.

I'll just give you a little imput from my 30yrs experience of breeding and showing yorkies.
1st she did NOT get them both at the vet apt (I'm also a CVT)
One in contacted only from water infested with it. Some city water has a problem, BUT if you know that is the case the puppies need to be TESTED first not just treated because you feel like it.
The other is usually found in overcrowding and dirty conditions. True it can be a one time case for the breeder, but again she is just treating. she MUST know she has a problem.
The VERY least she should agree to pay for the treatments.
Stress will cause both of them to become active. They can live dormante untill stress.
As a breeder, I would pay for the treatment.
No one should have to go through this without the support of a good breeder
Did your breeder test her dogs for Liver Shunt? BtCA requires that before they are registered and bred. Is she a registered breeder with on of the Biewer Clubs or just a backyard breeder?
You can PM me anytime if you need help!
sparklingbluyorkies.com

I would send her a copy of the lemon law. It's very specific about diseases that show up in 15 days. I can help steer you towards documentation that shows the 13 day incubation period, or your vet can write her a letter too.

Inform her that if she chooses to not comply with the provision of the lemon law, that you will be seeking a lawyer for assistance in asserting your rights under the lemon law.

Most of the time, it's a matter of the breeder either not knowing the Lemon Law or them thinking that YOU don't know the law.


California Pet Lemon Laws






http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/tmn.con...ord=123456789? California's law falls hardest on sellers of unhealthy dogs, but hobby breeders do not fall under its provisions except for the extremely active ones. It applies to anyone who sold, transferred, or gare away two or more litters during the preceding calendar year.
Buyers have 15 days to document contagious or infectious disease, one year to document congenital or hereditary defects. The seller has 120 days to produce advertised registration papers. If the seller fails to do so, the buyer may return the dog for a full refund or keep the dog and receive a refund of 75 percent of the purchase price.
If the dog is proven to be ill or to have hereditary defects, the buyer is entitled to a replacement plus reimbursement for veterinary expenses related to certifying the dog's illness, up to the price of the dog including sales tax.
The buyer may also choose a refund plus reimbursement for veterinary expenses related to certifying the dog's illness, up to the price of the dog.
If the buyer elects to have the dog treated, the seller is required to cover up to 1 1/2 times the purchase price of the dog in veterinary expenses.
It is important to note that the cost of testing to certify a dog unhealthy could double what a seller is obligated to refund to the purchaser. This makes it very expensive to sell ill and defective dogs in California.

Read more: California Lemon Laws for Dogs

Hi Again
You need to claen everything with a 30% solution of Clorox. Clorox kills EVERYTHING.
Use it to clean bowls, bedding, floor and I would wipe down walls (probably not needed, but That's just me)
Always use clorox it even kills Parvo and HIV!!! Good stuff. I should own stock in it!
Sparklingbluyorkies.com

Unfortunately, Coccidia eggs are extremely resistant to bleach. It is much better to use high heat (such as a steam mop and an 10% ammonia solution.)

So another update.. I gave her a call like 20 minutes ago to politely just ask for Lola's "German" AKC Registration papers (which she said takes 3-4 months to get here from D.O.B.). And then immediately she goes "oh no, you can't come to pick up the papers.. I just had a puppy brought to me yesterday by some owners who couldn't care for it anymore and it had full blow parvo and now my entire house is infested with parvo". Which makes it even more blatant that she is just nonsense. I really should have recorded the phone call because she slipped up in so many different areas. Eventually, the conversation ended on her saying she does not want to speak to me again (because I literally was having her EAT her words with her stupidity and for her to try and play me as some dumb fool) and that she would mail the registration papers when she gets them. This is entirely just shady business and I'm stumped. We already invested a hefty amount into the vet bill and if we are to pursue this legally it would probably outweigh the financial benefits but at this point its almost like I just want these types of people to not exist in the puppy "breeding" world if thats what you can even call what she's doing as breeding.. An absolute shame that our society continues to grow with less and less integrity.

I wouldn't bother to call her again. Just put everything in writing and send it registered mail. Include copies of the lemon law, vet bills and any vet statements.

You can file yourself in small claims court for about $50.00, or if you prefer, a quick letter from a lawyer outlining her responsibilities shouldn't run you more than 100-200. There are other avenues for going after her.

Let me see if I can get Mardelin over to this thread. She's really well versed in the lemon laws.

You're breeder is for lack of a better word "untruthful". As stated by Lola, send her copy of the lemon laws stand your ground. The breeder is responsible for the vet costs. Contract or not, law overrides contract.

I'm on my way to a dog show, but will be home Sunday evening. PM me with your # and walk you through what you should do.

I'm sorry to hear about the breeder. sounds frustrating. I hope everything works out. if you can do small claims then its worth a shot. let us know how everything goes. I want to know how you get your money back so I can do the same thing to the breeder who sold me my pup. so far I have tried what you have tried and nothing has seemed to work for me. ugh. so annyoing. hope lola is doing well!

Collier Ranch
 

I too bought a pup from Collier ranch after searching for a Biewer online. I drove to their family ranch in Stevenson about 2 hrs from San Jose.I and was met at the gate by the biggest german shepard I have ever seen in my life. I had to wait about 15 min for the grandfather to walk the long driveway and could not get out of my car because I was afraid of the Huge dog. Their house is set way back off the road ad the kennel is behind the house. It is a very nice kennel I must admit. The grandfather wasn't very friendly and made us put bleach and water spray on our shoes or told us we couldn't come in. So we did it. Inside the kennel, they have about 12 yorkies, most of them are really tiny stud dogs. The walls have a lot of pictures of people showing dogs and blue ribbons. There were a few college students working as volunteers. The grandfather explained that they used to show dogs and farm almonds but they got too old and that his gran daughters took over the business. So, it appears that they have more studs than females and they stud their dogs out and his one grand daughter kelly sells the litters from select breeders that they are partnered with . He explained that this keeps the quality high and controlled by their family. The kennel was cute and cottage like with ceiling fans and stained glass,woodstoves and a air conditioning system. All the dogs have an inside kennel about 4 x4 and a doggie door to an outside play yard about 20 x 20 each. i counted 20 runs and about 12 dogs in the kennel. In one of the kennels there was a giant tortoise about 40 yrs old they said. it was like something from a zoo. Kelly showed up finally and met us with a very warn WELCOME to our HOME. She invited us on a tour and took us in a golf cart to the back of the property.They also do dog rescue and took me to another small barn where they had a litter of pups someone left on their driveway. There were also ponds behind the barns and we were very surprised to find out that they own the largest private sturgeon hatchery and they grow these giant fish the size of dolphins. It was quite a special day and It was nice to see that not everyone fits the breeders mold. I think these are some of the nicest people I ever met. I did pick out a older 5 yr.old female that was being retired. The cost for her re-homing was a spay fee of $250.00 . I had to call my vet from their office and scheduled the appt. 2 weeks later they refunded it all to me as soon as I sent them proof of spay. My dog is very good natured and sweet and her name is Chasity. I am a senior and this little dog is a blessing to my life. I always wanted a yorkie but I had to see for myself and pick out my own dog. In my contract it says that I have to stool test the dog within72hrs of buying her. My dog did not have any symptoms but it did test positive for Giardia and I think it is because they are agricultural and raise fish. It was not because their dogs are not clean or well fedd or very well atken care of. My vet saysmoving a dog can cause stress and it can flare up anywhere. he says it is the most common thing in most water and that sparrows carry it everywhere. because I did what the contract said in the 72 hrs. They actually paid for my meds $24.00 over the phone. But again, I did exactly what they told me to do. My vet said I have a very nice little dog too. So do you ever ask yourself.was it maybe something you did wrong? Did you stool test the puppy in order to address the issue that was mild and became bad ? Was the puppy well when you picked it up? I bet that if it wasn't a nice puppy you wouldnt have taken it home. I got a real nice dog from those folks. real good people.:aimeeyork

timetells......I'm curious....so you've got two puppies from this Collier Ranch? http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...le-guilty.html

I was a little confused by your earlier post and now this one. So, did you buy a puppy, an adult, both? You bought a puppy from them at a pet store "adoption":rolleyes: I have never heard of a pet store having an "adoption day" for breeders, normally I hear of pet stores allowing rescues to hold adoption events but never knew of them to allow breeders to do that.

I got two since last summer. They only Show to people at the Dress shop and sell to customers with appointments. Nice people. I don't see all the judgement and its purpose. I am going to notify them of all thses people who did not buy dogs from them that are so interested in them. send me your contact info and I will pass it on to them.:aimeeyork