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-   Sick & Injured / Emergencies Talk (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sick-injured-emergencies-talk/)
-   -   Ava is sick and in hospital again; GI problems (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sick-injured-emergencies-talk/198307-ava-sick-hospital-again-gi-problems.html)

Ellie May 03-06-2010 07:02 PM
I really can't even imagine constantly dealing with something so expensive. :(

Was the allergy test for food allergies?

Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like the vet explained the pros and cons of intestinal endoscopy to you. It's great that he found something, but I think at this point we'll just have to hope that he found everything that he needed to (likely did). I'm guessing he didn't explain the fact that some tumors (although likely not a concern here) can be missed as can a large portion of the small intestine! He would have had to go through the pylorus and go around to the duodenum. This isn't always an easy task and not all vets do it (but they probably forget to mention this ;) ). Even when they do, portions can be missed. So a diagnosis like this made with endoscopy may or may not be a solid one. That is why some vets offer (and strongly suggest) full thickness biopsy (abdominal surgery). They'd rather go straight to the test that is more accurate because if they aren't satisfied with the endo results, they'd go there anyway. Of course the endo has advantages (safer, easier on the dog), but then owner may end up paying for both (and some just aren't totally comfortable diagnosis form endo)... I'm not saying it was the wrong choice here (or the right one), but this should have been explained.
Gastrointestinal Endoscopy in Dogs ~ Pawprints and Purrs, Inc.

For all those trying Z/D Ultra, I hope it works better for you than it did for us. The same with HA... They were pretty hard on Ellie...

ladyjane 03-06-2010 07:09 PM
Sadly, I have dealt with many bills like that. My vetting is not cheap, but it is excellent. For that, I am grateful!

My understanding is that the endoscopy was done because she was vomiting clumps of bright red blood which would indicate bleeding up high in the gi tract.

ladyjane 03-06-2010 07:13 PM
Oh...and as for the food, if Z/D Ultra does not work, I will move on to another. It does work for many. I have seen a couple of people say that they have had problems with I/D but I have used it on many pups with pancreatitis and other stomach issues without any problem at all. I am not a fan of Hill's but I have used that one with success.

ally173 03-07-2010 05:53 AM
he did explain the full thickness biopsy; but i didnt want to put ava through a major surgery; also he said since she's only 2, he doesnt suspect tumors.
for now she's doing well; thank god.
she's eating the low residue a bit at a time, cause she's really hungry. i am giving her the prednisone and the prene-bac gel and so far so good.
we'll just have to wait.
i hope that food allergy test will shed some light on what foods she's allergic too.
i know they do that food allergy tests for humans; so i am guessing it's the same for animals.
again thanks all for your support and advice; and keep the stories coming.

Ellie May 03-07-2010 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3030300)
he did explain the full thickness biopsy; but i didnt want to put ava through a major surgery; also he said since she's only 2, he doesnt suspect tumors.
for now she's doing well; thank god.
she's eating the low residue a bit at a time, cause she's really hungry. i am giving her the prednisone and the prene-bac gel and so far so good.
we'll just have to wait.
i hope that food allergy test will shed some light on what foods she's allergic too.
i know they do that food allergy tests for humans; so i am guessing it's the same for animals.
again thanks all for your support and advice; and keep the stories coming.
Food allergy testing for humans is so sensitive that it gives too many false positives as far as I have read. Doing it for animals is generally considered to be a waste of money. An elimination diet needs to be done.

Is there any food she never had any symptoms on?
For Ellie, she has to have fish as her protein source or she goes into the IBD thing...

dwerten 03-07-2010 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3030300)
he did explain the full thickness biopsy; but i didnt want to put ava through a major surgery; also he said since she's only 2, he doesnt suspect tumors.
for now she's doing well; thank god.
she's eating the low residue a bit at a time, cause she's really hungry. i am giving her the prednisone and the prene-bac gel and so far so good.
we'll just have to wait.
i hope that food allergy test will shed some light on what foods she's allergic too.
i know they do that food allergy tests for humans; so i am guessing it's the same for animals.
again thanks all for your support and advice; and keep the stories coming.
the good news is prednisone makes them hungry so she will eat more ;)

dwerten 03-07-2010 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 3030315)
Food allergy testing for humans is so sensitive that it gives too many false positives as far as I have read. Doing it for animals is generally considered to be a waste of money. An elimination diet needs to be done.

Is there any food she never had any symptoms on?
For Ellie, she has to have fish as her protein source or she goes into the IBD thing...
i 100% agree it was a waste of $200 :(

ally173 03-07-2010 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellie May (Post 3030315)
Food allergy testing for humans is so sensitive that it gives too many false positives as far as I have read. Doing it for animals is generally considered to be a waste of money. An elimination diet needs to be done.

Is there any food she never had any symptoms on?
For Ellie, she has to have fish as her protein source or she goes into the IBD thing...
i actually had the food allergy test done and all was negative; i feel like i have to give this test a try just for ava's sake. i dont want to do too many food trials with her; as her stomach is extermely sensitive.
i cant remember any food that she had without a reaction.
however she was on halo hollistic salmon dry food for over 8 months before the 2nd episode. and the 2nd episode i believe was brought due to stress; after we attended a dog event that was 2 hrs away; in august which was really hot weather.
however every food she was on she was always itching, scratching licking her paws. so not sure what she's allergic to.
now with the prednisone she hasn't itched at all.

ally173 03-07-2010 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 3030389)
the good news is prednisone makes them hungry so she will eat more ;)
she's eating small portions though; better than nothing
however she's not drinking water. i didnt see her drink yesterday or today so far. is it because the food is wet and she doesnt feel thirsty. should i give her some water with a syringe just in case

dwerten 03-07-2010 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3030409)
she's eating small portions though; better than nothing
however she's not drinking water. i didnt see her drink yesterday or today so far. is it because the food is wet and she doesnt feel thirsty. should i give her some water with a syringe just in case
no do not syringe she is not drinking alot as she was pumped up with fluids for days and food has moisture so she is fine just let her eat and drink on her own - i am not a big fan of syringing food or water as dogs will eat and drink on their own when necessary and if dehydrated i believe in fluids by subq or iv but i doubt she is dehydrated - check her gums if not sticky then let her be

dwerten 03-07-2010 07:51 AM
also she will drink more eventually from steroids as well -- dex did not drink much when he came home from hospital either

dwerten 03-07-2010 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3030407)
i actually had the food allergy test done and all was negative; i feel like i have to give this test a try just for ava's sake. i dont want to do too many food trials with her; as her stomach is extermely sensitive.
i cant remember any food that she had without a reaction.
however she was on halo hollistic salmon dry food for over 8 months before the 2nd episode. and the 2nd episode i believe was brought due to stress; after we attended a dog event that was 2 hrs away; in august which was really hot weather.
however every food she was on she was always itching, scratching licking her paws. so not sure what she's allergic to.
now with the prednisone she hasn't itched at all.
yeah with her elly i would really limit her to the home unless you have to take to vet as any stress can set her off - i have to do this with dexter too and now maybe even dee dee since she has been getting the stress colitis from vet visits :( just safer that way and less costly

ally173 03-07-2010 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 3030427)
yeah with her elly i would really limit her to the home unless you have to take to vet as any stress can set her off - i have to do this with dexter too and now maybe even dee dee since she has been getting the stress colitis from vet visits :( just safer that way and less costly
i know; but she constantly staring from the window and i feel bad; she does like to go for a short walk and no problem there; so i think i can take her for 10 min walk
she doesnt like the vet visit; i can tell u that; she stars shaking there and her tail goes down

dwerten 03-07-2010 08:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3030448)
i know; but she constantly staring from the window and i feel bad; she does like to go for a short walk and no problem there; so i think i can take her for 10 min walk
she doesnt like the vet visit; i can tell u that; she stars shaking there and her tail goes down
walks are fine but going in car for long rides, dog events, etc i would avoid that but walks should not be an issue for her

manolos mom 03-07-2010 08:08 AM
I am just reading this now, I hope Ava is feeling better. Hang in in there.

ally173 03-07-2010 09:03 AM
she keeps burping; that's not a good sign right?
i think her stomach is too sensitive for that food.
i am thinking of trying the purina EN; anyone here tried it

dwerten 03-07-2010 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3030521)
she keeps burping; that's not a good sign right?
i think her stomach is too sensitive for that food.
i am thinking of trying the purina EN; anyone here tried it
no just know it is not hydrolized that i am aware of - dexter burped after his episode when he came home from hospital but does not any more unless he gulps a bunch of water though lollll

ally173 03-07-2010 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwerten (Post 3030540)
no just know it is not hydrolized that i am aware of - dexter burped after his episode when he came home from hospital but does not any more unless he gulps a bunch of water though lollll
ok so maybe her tummy is adjusting to the food; i will watch to see how long this burping lasts.

Wylie's Mom 03-07-2010 09:38 AM
Did I see in an earlier post that your vet was charging you $20 for BeneBac???? :eek:

It's a non-prescriptive probiotic paste that you can get at PetCo (not PetsMart) for about $4, for 3-4 Tubes. I get mine in the Ferret section (rather than dog area), bc it's more size appropriate for yorkies.

ally173 03-07-2010 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 3030561)
Did I see in an earlier post that your vet was charging you $20 for BeneBac???? :eek:

It's a non-prescriptive probiotic paste that you can get at PetCo (not PetsMart) for about $4, for 3-4 Tubes. I get mine in the Ferret section (rather than dog area), bc it's more size appropriate for yorkies.
they gave me the 15gm tube; i had to get it that day; but i will be buying it myself thereafter.
i was wondering if there's a better one out there; but maybe i should stick to it; she seems to like it and it's easy to administer.
thanks for the info

kjc 03-07-2010 01:22 PM
Veterinary Healthcare - Managing chronic enteropathies in dogs (Sponsored by Nestle Purina)

ally173 03-07-2010 02:15 PM
i was looking at the bene-bac gel ingredients and i found few that can be harmful; any ideas on an alternative probiotic in a gel or liquid form; thanks

ingredients
Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried L. plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Streptococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried L. casei Fermentation Product, Vegetable Oils, Sugar, Silicondioxide, Artificial Color, Polysorbate 80 (a preservative) with Tertiary Butyl Hydroquinone and Ethoxyquin.

kjc 03-07-2010 07:35 PM
Here's a post from earlier on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjc (Post 3029752)
If I may... What is the original anesthesia charge, how much do they charge for a teeth cleaning alone, and did you approve the cleaning before hand? Original charge for the endoscopy? Did you approve a second biopsy site? How long did they keep her under? And what gas did they use? If they used Halothane, and she survived... cancel the bile acid test. Did they do pre-op bloodwork (before anesthetizing?) Anything amiss with her liver enzymes?

Those add-ons sound like original charges, and I would def question them... the person who put that together on your bill could have been mistaken (usually not the vet). Usually additional charges are fractions of the original charges, like hourly for anesthesia (teeth cleaning takes 20 miutes at most and $100-$150 for an hour anesthesia. Normally would charge less as she was already under for different procedure) Tell him my vet could have pulled all her teeth and put in dentures for that amount (with a gold K-9 or 2)! For the endoscopy additional charge, tell him it's his fault he's slow, you shouldn't have to pay that much extra... usually $50 -$100 for an additional sight and no extra charge for use of the endoscope, and that includes lab fees to process it! Time for taking an additional biopsy: no more than 5 minutes including prep and handling/packaging for sending it to the lab. PS: Ask him if he's in the market for a new endoscope?

As for the allergy bloodwork... couldn't that have been added on to the bloodwork they already had? Some can some can't...worth asking about.

You do have a say and if they won't give you a refund you may be able to at least get a credit on your account for future services.

Also Nutrigest for Dogs and Cats - Pet Health Supplement - Nutrigest Pets you can buy it online cheaper. contains vitamins, minerals, and probiotics.
IMHO, the vitamins/minerals may not be necessary bc with the probiotics/enzymes alone her body will get more out of the food she eats.

I use Nature's Farmacy - Store - Product Details recommended to me by Wylie's Mom. This can be dissolved in liquid and given orally via syringe, or sprinkled on the food. No need to give it prior to feeding. They also carry Probiotic 911 for animals under stress, maybe better for her. Also, the amount given of the first product linked can be doubled for animals under stress.
Very good catch on the Benebac.... I never thought to check those ingredients as it's been around forever!

ally173 03-08-2010 05:59 AM
it's just so easy to administer and she seems to love it; she stands next to me when i am holding the tube; and then licks it off my finger. i am afraid to switch her to a powder as she's very picky and wont take anything that she doesnt like. is there another probiotic gel or liquid out there; thanks

ally173 03-08-2010 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 3030561)
Did I see in an earlier post that your vet was charging you $20 for BeneBac???? :eek:

It's a non-prescriptive probiotic paste that you can get at PetCo (not PetsMart) for about $4, for 3-4 Tubes. I get mine in the Ferret section (rather than dog area), bc it's more size appropriate for yorkies.
have you used bene-bac for your dogs for a long time;
do u think it's safe to use for a long term with these ingredients? (see red)

ingredients
Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried L. plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Streptococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried L. casei Fermentation Product, Vegetable Oils, Sugar, Silicondioxide, Artificial Color, Polysorbate 80 (a preservative) with Tertiary Butyl Hydroquinone and Ethoxyquin.

TLC 03-08-2010 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3031559)
it's just so easy to administer and she seems to love it; she stands next to me when i am holding the tube; and then licks it off my finger. i am afraid to switch her to a powder as she's very picky and wont take anything that she doesnt like. is there another probiotic gel or liquid out there; thanks
I am going to send you the VSL#3 today, and hopefully you will get it tomorrow. The dose to start with is 1/20th of the packet daily, so if you haven't gotten those tiny measuring spoons, then you will have to use the smallest you have and measure out how much 1/20th of the packet will be.

ally173 03-08-2010 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLC (Post 3031572)
I am going to send you the VSL#3 today, and hopefully you will get it tomorrow. The dose to start with is 1/20th of the packet daily, so if you haven't gotten those tiny measuring spoons, then you will have to use the smallest you have and measure out how much 1/20th of the packet will be.
ok great; thank you so much!
can i add a bit of water and let her lick it?

TLC 03-08-2010 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3031595)
ok great; thank you so much!
can i add a bit of water and let her lick it?
Yes.

Is she eating Wet or Dry food?

ally173 03-08-2010 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLC (Post 3031631)
Yes.

Is she eating Wet or Dry food?
she's eating wet food; but if the powder has a taste of smell she won't eat her food; she's very picky

TLC 03-08-2010 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ally173 (Post 3031644)
she's eating wet food; but if the powder has a taste of smell she won't eat her food; she's very picky
I haven't tried it (yet), but it has a mild lemon flavor. I use to mix it in alittle yogurt, but have since stopped the yogurt and mix it into a little bit of food and feed that first so I know they are eating it. They have never given me a problem :)


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