Sorry I made a mistake... Denamarin is not homeopathic but a nutraceutical. As you seem concerned about the health and status of the liver in all your dogs (and testing is done prior to treatment), I thought to suggest it, as it promotes liver health and regeneration.

Do you use Revolution on your cat too?

My belief is that if a person or a dog is healthy and eating a healthy diet, supplements are not needed. I have yet to have issues with any bone healing in myself or any of my pups...and I have had ortho surgeries as have some of my pups.

I just don't believe in supplements unless indicated.

Gail, I really hope you'll reconsider the half a year thing. MI is only 10 minutes away from ON and we do it year-round. Remember, the half a year protocol could have caused Zoey to get the disease. Ellie has liver, pancreas, intestinal, esophageal, allergy, and ortho problems and it is still not even a question.

Rarely if ever is the 2 year Heartgard, slow-kill thing done here. It's not standard of care according to the AHS. The disease progresses during that time putting pup in more danger. And there are slight concerns about this method causing some heartworm preventative drug resistance.

SAMe should help prevent liver cell death. So in a liver compromised dog, it's good to give it. That said, I don't right now. In a non liver compromised dog, well, that's between owner and vet. I might be talked into giving it during Immiticide therapy (with approval from the attending vet). Giving it everyday just because a healthy dog is on heartworm meds though? Nope.

I missed the half year thing and also the two year Heartgard thing. I thought you were doing the 2 - 3 months of Heartgard....and then treatment.

I agree with Ellie May on both.

Actually, there is less risk of thrombi with the 2 - 3 month Heartgard prior to alduticide administration.

From the Heartworm Society website:

American Heartworm Society | Canine Guidelines



While controversial due to the theoretical risk of selecting heartworm populations that are resistant to macrocyclic lactones, it is beneficial to administer a macrocyclic lactone for up to three months prior to administration of melarsomine, when the clinical presentation does not demand immediate intervention. The logic for this approach is to kill susceptible heartworm larvae and thus prevent re-infection of the dog, while allowing less susceptible juvenile worms, the opportunity to develop into more susceptible adult worms. This tactic increases the chance for removal of the existing heartworm infection when the adulticide injections are given later. Additional benefits of this protocol are the effects of macrocyclic lactones in greatly reducing, if not eliminating circulating microfilariae, stunting immature D. immitis and reducing female worm mass by compromising the reproductive system. Administration for two to three months should result in reduced antigenic mass, which in turn may reduce the severity of pulmonary thromboembolism.

Ooooh, no, I didn't mean start Immiticide right away. I thought the term "slow kill" was reserved for nothing but Heartgard for 2 years "instead" of Immiticide. That is how I've heard it used. So when I said slow kill isn't standard of care, I just meant it's not a replacement for Immiticide.

I steer clear of supplements too unless they are indicated. If I used every supplement for Ellie ever recommended to me, her whole diet would be liquids and pills and my wallet would be empty all in the name of "it worked for my second cousin's, son's, brother's, dog". lol. If there aren't well designed studies on Pubmed validating a certain supplement for canines, I usually run.

Well, you did say you would start immediately....so I assumed you meant Immiticide immediately.

As for people calling a 2 year protocol "slow kill" .. that is their terminology and certainly not a recommended one by the experts. (I do realize that some people have that term "expert" confused in their minds as you mentioned....it is always good to read actual studies....not just a person's website where he/she is a legend in his/her own mind and his/her followers.) The slow kill is what I have mentioned from the beginning of this thread. 2 - 3 months. There is no way on this earth I would give a heartworm positive dog Heartgard for 2 years. People who recommend that honestly are totally ignoring research and doing their own thing because it makes them feel better...not the dogs. :( Some do it because of the cost of treatment.....something that they should have thought about prior to being non compliant with heartworm preventatives....others do it because of what you said .. "it worked for my second cousin's, son's, brother's, dog". That kind of thinking scares the heck out of me. Naive ... I am not sure I can even call it that. I lean more towards stupid.

Ugh, it's too early. lol. By immediately I meant start doxy immediately.

Under treatment here, slow kill is talked about. When slow kill is mentioned on YT, this is what people seem to mean here anyway:
Heartworms in Dogs

I don't use the term when talking about doing doxy and HG for a couple months first bc I think people would think I meant the above was okay. I know people on YT are in agreement with the two year slow kill method. It is supposed to be reserved for unique cases.

That said, I'm not sure why any vet using Immiticide would skip the doxy/HG.

I guess it is too early for me, too. Naptime! :)

I am in agreement with everything brought up in this article:

Citadel Tibetan Mastiffs Heartworm Timing

I only suggested the Denamarin because of my experience and investigation of what it can do to protect the liver during stressful times. I could not relocate the beagle/mushroom study, but I did see it a while back. I did find where Dr Dodds recommends giving it for one week following an 'every 6 weeks dose' of Heartworm preventative. I was suggesting it may be helpful to give during the Immiticide treatment, but I do not know how that drug is metabolized. As Liver and kidney tests were performed on these dogs prior to even Heartworm preventative dosing, I will assume these drugs can affect the liver, in which case the Denamarin would help protect the liver.

(Dr Dodds received her D.V.M. in 1964 from the Ontario Veterinary College.)

I do question going 6 months without Heartworm preventative. I think 3 months if one uses Heartgard, and 2 months for all others, but do read the small print on the package... (main concern if the mosquito follows your dog into the house, when the temps are higher than outside)

Here a link to a thread that contains some 'research' I did a few years back:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-med-rant.html

My Tinkerbell experienced rapid liver cell death when she ate an unknown quantity of kitchen grease. I can only imagine what Immiticide and other Heartworm 'meds' can do to a healthy liver. The liver cells will regenerate, but the Denamarin helps with this regeneration, and can prevent some liver cell death to begin with. It just looks like a way to cause less stress to the dog during treatment, as the liver will be at least a part of the function of ridding the body of the medication.

Whether slow kill or fast kill, I believe that the vet needs to make that decision, mainly with regards to each individual dog and the level of heartworm infection they've been diagnosed with, and taking into consideration the dog's present condition and history. At stage one, with a monster sized dog, I don't think she'll have a problem either way. But then again, the vet will make that decision with the best interests of the dog in mind.

I believe that the slow kill method is used mainly for dogs who have sustained an infection for a longer period of time, hence many adult heartworms in the heart and other areas, where a fast kill protocol would definitely be life threatening to the dog, or if the dog's history is unknown, or has other medical problems, or can't tolerate the medication.

I did see one case online where they did a slow kill regimen, and a monthly preventative with Doxycycline, but then decided to let the adults die off on their own (takes around 5 years), as the monthly was killing off the earlier stages of the larvae, and the Doxy rendered the female adults heartworms sterile (unable to reproduce).

So it all really depends on the dog itself, it's condition, and it's tolerances, and risk factors.

I wish to clarify one thing that I have said. When I refer to slow kill, I am not talking about the dangerous to the dogs method that some people find acceptable. I googled and see that, as Crystal, said, a lot consider the approach of only Heartgard to be termed as slow kill. I had no idea that people considered that to be slow kill!

I meant three treatments instead of two and spaced apart properly. I also meant two to three months of Heartgard prior.

This is, after all, what is recommended by the Heartworm Society whom I look to as the experts on heartworms.

Speculation about possible liver problems in dogs and the reasons for them based upon people's suppositions is not what I consider valid research data.

This is something I have never heard of. The Doxycycline, to my knowledge, is given to eliminate the Wolbachia (spelling?) organism. I have never seen where it has any effect on the heartworms.

Do you perhaps recall where you read that?

This seems pretty fair and balanced:
Heartworm Treatment

Using Heartgard alone for 2 years is almost never the way to go. The dog will have adult worms in its heart for 2 year. Heartgard can sterilize worms and can help slow growth, but it does not necessarily stop growth and it does not stop the disease from progressing. Heartworm disease progressing for 2 years is not a happy thought and it's not what the AHS considers a good idea.

Whether or not SAMe should be given - couldn't say. I personally would do it if Immiticide was given as long as a vet told me it couldn't hurt. Millions and millions of dogs get some sort of drug daily or monthly though and don't receive SAMe or milk thistle and they are fine. So a healthy dog just taking a preventative once a month - I wouldn't spend my money on it.

So reading that one article sort of answers my question. I did know that the Wolbachia organism has a symbiotic relationship with the heartworms.....but was not clear about what that relationship was. Apparently they must think that it protects the adult heartworm from becoming sterile from the Immiticide. Interesting.