Another problem at the dog park. :( really upset

[Britster]

Maybe check out the German Shepherd forums too.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I agree the bite was self-defense & not personal. Look at it like this - if your GSD rushed at you & you thought she was attacking, you would knock her to the side or hit out at her, defending yourself from this "attack", which you don't understand. She wouldn't take your self-defense personally. From the dog's point of view, when she's in survival mode & you try to stop her from defending her life, you are "attacking" in her mind. She doesn't understand that you are trying to stop the fight. So don't take it personally, thinking she doesn't still love you or anything. She's just acting out of instinct as you would.

I agree with this theory above....I am not qualified so I will not give any advise on training...I dont think your dog was "attacking" YOU....I think she was caught up in the moment, her adrenalin was rushing thru-out her body, and she was in "fight or flight" mode...she felt pulling on her collar, and she bit at that annoying deterrant to her immediate goal at hand...neutralizing that small dog. I am a huge proponent of "avoidance"...."if you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" mindset....therefore, I do not take my dogs out in public, off leash...we do not frequent dog parks....I like to be in TOTAL control of any situation I put myself or my dogs in, so I simply avoid the possibility of dog fights, run away dogs off leash, etc ....we all just stay in our own little corner of the world, my large yard. I do not trust training when a dog is taken over by instinct....I believe they will throw caution and any education or training they have ever been subjected to, to the wind and act like maniacs, driven by base instinct. Only after the initial frenzy, when they regain a modicom of their senses, will they even HEAR you yelling commands, which they MIGHT then obey, if they have managed to get past that initial surge in their system. I did learn something from the trainers on site here! Grabbing the hind legs and walking in circles, putting them strictly on their front legs, is brilliant!

[gemy]

[QUOTE=Yorkiemom1;3930142]I agree with this theory above....I am not qualified so I will not give any advise on training...I dont think your dog was "attacking" YOU....I think she was caught up in the moment, her adrenalin was rushing thru-out her body, and she was in "fight or flight" mode...she felt pulling on her collar, and she bit at that annoying deterrant to her immediate goal at hand...neutralizing that small dog. I am a huge proponent of "avoidance"...."if you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" mindset....therefore, I do not take my dogs out in public, off leash...we do not frequent dog parks....I like to be in TOTAL control of any situation I put myself or my dogs in, so I simply avoid the possibility of dog fights, run away dogs off leash, etc ....we all just stay in our own little corner of the world, my large yard. I do not trust training when a dog is taken over by instinct....I believe they will throw caution and any education or training they have ever been subjected to, to the wind and act like maniacs, driven by base instinct. Only after the initial frenzy, when they regain a modicom of their senses, will they even HEAR you yelling commands, which they MIGHT then obey, if they have managed to get past that initial surge in their system. I did learn something from the trainers on site here! Grabbing the hind legs and walking in circles, putting them strictly on their front legs, is brilliant![/QUOTE]

Yes it is a good one. How-ever I've never tried that with a Pitbull. I'm not sure if you'd be able to break the focus. My trainer who also trains protection, carries with him a dowel type of rod. It is meant to release the jaw bite. This is for the breeds that bite and lock on.

I agree once the fight ensues - commands will rarely work, unless your pup has been protection trained, and has learnt the "out" command.
I was thinking here of when the Shepherd started to run - the STOP command.

I have started to "rethink" leasefree parks. Most of my breeder friends don't utilize them at all. For various reasons. I'm guilty now of taking my dogs to out of the way parks, in off times, to exercise and train off lead.
Once a week or so, the Blackies and Yorkies, all get together at one of our breeder friends country places, to socialize and train together. That is a lot of fun But still we are very careful. With the puppies, we socialize with one or two well trained and stable adults, with 4 human adults, monitoring.
I think I might have posted a video called Labour Day training that shows the Yorkies, Blackies, and one border collie training. Our Blackies get to socialize together, after they have trained together. There are a few reasons for this; a) obedience training is tiring both physically and mentally for the dogs b) training in a pack builds a pack mentality c) they have fresh reminders of just who is the boss, and our keyed into you and your commands. d) in training we can perceive/tell if one or another dog has an objection to each other.

[yorkietalkjilly]

With a locked in Pit full of fight genes all engaged or a situation like that where dogs are in the "kill" mode, a finger jabbing the anus, the eyes or a tool to separate the jaws is often required. It usually takes 2 people who are willing to get bit to separate them. But with normal dogpark fights, grabbing a leg is usually all that's required to get them apart & then foreleg circle walking away.

[tjdmom]

I've been thinking about you since I posted yesterday. I just really want to make sure you take this seriously... really your dog's life depends on it. If she had bitten the other owner or hurt the other dog then things would be out of your hands. She has now successfully bitten you and she needs to know that this can never happen again....

[MyTrixie143]

My cocker spaniel Peppi has something about her that makes other dogs want to attack her. She has a very friendly outgoing personality but she has been the victim of so many attacks. And I watch her, she doesn't do anything to bring the attacks on. She just has a dominant aura that does can pick up on and I guess that is why they attack her. Even a well trained lab competing in obedience attacked her. Maybe this is the case with the puggle.

I have to agree with Brit though on your method of training. I have had big dogs all my life and I can tell you aggression brings aggression. Alpha rolls are good examples of this.

That said it does sound like she bit you in the heat of the moment. Larger dogs mature slower, so she is still quite young and still needs lots of training. Hopefully this was just an isolated event and with more training this won't happen again.

[shelimcallister]

Originally Posted by MyTrixie143

My cocker spaniel Peppi has something about her that makes other dogs want to attack her. She has a very friendly outgoing personality but she has been the victim of so many attacks. And I watch her, she doesn't do anything to bring the attacks on. She just has a dominant aura that does can pick up on and I guess that is why they attack her. Even a well trained lab competing in obedience attacked her. Maybe this is the case with the puggle.

I have to agree with Brit though on your method of training. I have had big dogs all my life and I can tell you aggression brings aggression. Alpha rolls are good examples of this.

That said it does sound like she bit you in the heat of the moment. Larger dogs mature slower, so she is still quite young and still needs lots of training. Hopefully this was just an isolated event and with more training this won't happen again.

Poor Peppi That is very interesting that dogs want to attack her. I wonder how they sense her dominance.

[MamaZiggy]

I have had bg dogs all my life. and have had 3 GSD's.. I agree with the others, your dog was ReDirecting her frustration, you just happened to be there. I do also think that maybe you could try more "pack leader" training. I thonk that no matter how frustrated a dog is, they wont redirect to the pack leader, what pack leader says, goes! period. I Use Cesar's trainings on my dogs. I do modify things (like i dont use a leash on Ziigy's collar because i dont want to hurt his throat etc.) But i do believe in his teachings and they have worked great for my family pets. they are well behaved. Which ever training you decide to follow though, I do hope you feel better and know that she really was not trying to hurt you. I know ANY dog is capable of this, its just that she has big teeth you know. dont take it to heart. Just keep workibg hard on training

[yorkietalkjilly]

When any dog, especially big ones I've had or fostered, shows even unintended aggressive behavior, I go into a month of the Nothing In Life Is Free training mode & it is funny how quickly things fall right back into place. It works magic with a dog after he's forgotten his role in our "pack" or family. Big, powerful dogs who decide to even momentary be alpha can be dangerous & hurt somebody or another animal so it is helpful to get right on reminding them who really is the leader in this family.

[AlyHope]

I am going to be spending more time training her. Apache has earned herself a static correction collar called "big dog remote trainer" by pet safe. It has a fuction to just beep, and then 10 levels of shock. (I Shocked myself on 10. Not terrible)
Its been working amazing. We call it the good girl collar. I am using it mainly to correct any agressive behavior I see from her, especially at the dog park.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I personally would never use a shock collar on a pet dog as you don't need to hurt or shock one to properly train it. Dogs are super smart animals. It can really mess with some dogs' minds to have this mindless & sudden shock come out of no where & they begin to fear life & often you. They connect your smell with that collar & what happens to them - don't think they don't. I would withdraw that type of treatment, usually only used to rehab only aggressive biting or fighting dogs that repeatedly attack people or other animals to save them from euthanasia & substitute learning how to become a loving, responsible & successful leader/trainer/best friend to my dog. Have you tried the Nothing In Life Is Free training methods? That training is easy & big dogs get right on board very quickly. They are so intelligent - they don't need shocking.

[Britster]

My honest opinion? I think any kind of aversive training (i.e. alpha rolls, shock collars) are going to make this situation 10000x worse.

I like Cesar, I really do. I know he's done a lot of good when it comes to dogs, and I don't think he MEANS harm. But I have seen so many dogs who end up in shelters, or needing to be re-trained because their owners tried to utilize these "dominant" methods on their dogs and then it takes a lot longer to re-fix the problem.

Your dog did not bite you because she thought she was a "pack leader" - she's a working dog, who probably doesn't necessarily belong in a dog park (depends on the dog though of course, but in general, I wouldn't advise most working breeds to be there) - she re-directed her attention and got you in the heat of the moment.

I have to roll my eyes now (and I used to be a huge believer in the whole "pack dominance theory") when I hear people spouting things like... oh my dog runs out the door before me because he's dominant. No, he simply is excited to go outside. My dog is dominant because he eats before. Nope, sorry, he's just hungry. And then I watch people go around "tsskkk"'ing their dogs thinking they are actually accomplishing something, when all the dog does is look up at the owner like wtf are you doing? lol. I just think only a select handful of people actually know what they are doing, and most are just making it worse.

If every time a dog sees another dog, or reacts to another dog, it gets shocked. It's going to learn "dog = shock = I don't like dogs anymore".

I think prong collars, shock collars, etc, have their place. But just like any tool, they can be abused, or misused. I think your really need to be properly trained in order to use one.

NILIF is great, because it's not so aversive. It's just teaching manners, politeness, etc. Nothing in Life is Free

I also recommend Control Offleash
(teach Look At That!)

Also heard great things about The Dog Listener

Also, for reactive dogs, have seen the

Surprise Game

recommended.

Good luck.

[yorkietalkjilly]

LOL. You are right about so many people trying to be "Cesar". Just as scary as all those people "tsskk"ing & alpha rolling are those that just completely overlook dog misbehavior over & over & say it's just a dog being a dog, erring to the other extreme, then wondering why their dog badly bit somebody or chased the little neighbor girl across the street in traffic. Then the dog winds up in a shelter & we know what usually happens from there. Seems a lot of people don't have the patience or desire to just train their dogs & give refresher courses from time to time. Training is really fun & easy for the dog & the human. It is vital for big, powerful breeds.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

LOL. You are right about so many people trying to be "Cesar". Just as scary as all those people "tsskk"ing & alpha rolling are those that just completely overlook dog misbehavior over & over & say it's just a dog being a dog, erring to the other extreme, then wondering why their dog badly bit somebody or chased the little neighbor girl across the street in traffic. Then the dog winds up in a shelter & we know what usually happens from there. Seems a lot of people don't have the patience or desire to just train their dogs & give refresher courses from time to time. Training is really fun & easy for the dog & the human. It is vital for big, powerful breeds.

[AlyHope]

I almost never have to actually shock apache. She is for the most part a very well behaved dog. The shock collar has a beep funtion on it. If Apache is doing something she shouldnt be, She gets a beep and then the shock if she has not corrected the behavior. 9 out of 10 times the beep is enough to get her to stop whatever shes doing. I agree that there are some total idiots walking around goimg tssssssk! Its all trial and error. Every dog is different and so is every owner. Everyone has a way they like to do things & that works for them.