Did anyone watch Oprah yesterday??

[Marlee]

centralnewyorki said
I couldn't disagree with you more.

You mentioned that you would have walked away from N.O. with your family with a few days notice of a hurricane. You should be quite thankful you are able to- many of the people left behind in N.O. weren't as fortunate.

I agree some were incapable of leave, but not everyone. There were many able bodied people who did nothing to help themselves. If they were incapable that is one thing, however even with a limp, a cain or a wheelchair people can get out if they want to. It is a matter of will. Many people where just to lazy to do it themselves. I am sorry you disagree with me, I to have elderly family, and I can gaurnetee a woman with a cane has it far easier than a family of 6 people with infants of less than a year old had. I dont know about you, but I have had to carry children in my arms for a great distance, it is tiring, and they can be hard to control, they also can run off if put down. I would personally walk on a broken leg if need be. It just depends on how badly you want to save yourself or your family.

Where was the goverment with busses to help these people evacuate? Where was the state governmet, shouldnt they be held accountable, for sure they had some form of public transit sytem such as buses, yet they to did nothing to help themselves. Possibly had they thought it serious enough to call such an action beforehand, many would be better off than they are now.

I have a great aunt who is 91- a real spit-fire- if she were in N.O. she would be dead at this point because she can't drive and needs a cane to walk. What else could she do but stay in her home? Get on a bus, call a taxi and leave town in the days before hand I would think. It wasnt impossible for these people to have options

No one was shooting at people trying to help other evacuate before the flooding. True, but they did after, where as no other situation has this ever happened before where they people shot at their salvation.

The people of New Orleans would not be experiencing what they are if it were just for Katrina. I love Bill Clinton, but he and George H.W. and our good-for-nothing current president all took money out of the budget to strengthen the levees (as they all knew it could only uphold a category 3 hurricane) and placed it elsewhere.
They were not the only ones to divert the money, they have known for decades...yes decades these were a problem, president, after president, mayor after mayor all hold some responisblity here. Actully I would dare say every public offical would be at fault on this part to some degree. But they are not alone, they people do have a choice as to whom they have in office. Had they felt it prudent to put a responsible party in there that did what was nessisary, they many not have this problem. However had they done it, and it still failed people would still find a way to blame the current adminstration. That is all I have heard is how it is always they fault of the president, when in reality, it has nothing more to do with him, than it did any oter presdient preceding him. Bush put the money toward building a bridge to a remote island in Alaska. The hurricane was powerful- but the winds and rain were more than survivable- look at many of the houses- they're damaged, but still standing.

It is the government's problem. As I mentioned earlier, it was a known fact that the levees needed to be strengthened and for more than a decade, the money to repair it was shifted elsewhere. It wasn't the people of N.O. that voted to have the money go elsewhere- they had no say.sure they did, they help choose their own local officals, who obviously didnt feel the need to fix it until this happened. Where did their state money go, tehy had it, bush didnt redirect those funds. It is also the government's responsibility to help and serve its people. To leave them stranded with no food, no water, and insufficient law-enforcement is dispicable.Again, local law enforement comes first. Hmmm, for some reason if I remember 9-11 it was the local firefighters, and police that went in first, it took a few days for real "governemt help" (i.e. military etc)there as well.

IMO, yes, the president did cause these people to act this way. If you put that large a number of people together, scare the hell out of them, give them no information on the conditions, provide them with no food or water, then that is going to happen. Yes, I am sure that you do feel this way, however President Bush did not put fire arms in these peoples hands. He also did not tell them to shoot at people trying to help. Again in 9-11 people were scared, and had far more reason to shoot at others than in this situation, They KNEW it was comming, they had time to leave or prepare, they had choices as well. To claim that the governemt placed them in this situation is not only ridiculaous, but short sighted. You knrew about the hurricane, do you think we broadcasted to the world and everyone but the people of NO. THEY KNEW it was comming, they had choices, they chose to stay, to fight, to be jerks and harm others. Not the government the people.

It's the animalistic instinct in people coming out. No one can imagine the conditions these people were forced to live in for days.
I am sure this is true in America, however, many people live in worse conditions everyday all over the world, where are your crys of injustice for them. We are a civilized country with leading technology and somehow nothing could get to these people for days? The NASA space shuttle got to the moon in about the time our goverment got the needed supplies to New Orleans- isn't that a problem?? You are comparing apples to oranges here, in fact you would be better off leaving out this argument since at the time we went to the moon, there was no distater to speak of like this.

Not to mention that Bush said he didn't realize the hurricane would be as bad as it was. I've said this before, but I knew on Sunday that they were predicting a category 5 hurricane to hit New Orleans. SO why didnt the people of NO take it seriously before it hit, no one really knew what would happen, we have hundreds of hurricanes hit this nations, and many ride them out hoping for the best, not one before has blamed the governemt for their lack of response, until now. Becasue they know it was in many cases their choice.
That IS bad. Another member here said he was golfing when the hurricane was on land.
And of course we all no that people here keep constant tabs on the president, give me a break, you cannot use this as actual fact. You dont know what he was doing at the time, besides when it touched ground there was literally nothing he or anyone besides god could do at that point.
He is the leader of our country, and he took his sweet time getting back to work for these poor suffering people down there.
I dont think any of us has any right to complain about how long it took him to get to washington, first off we have no idea what restricts he was working under, or other issues he was having to deal with as well. I am sure his days are filled with far more than most of us can imagine, it isnt an easy job. I am not saying he is the best president, however, we are not in his shoes, so we have no real comprehension of what he faces every day. I am sure we all want to think he is sitting back watching the hurricane ravage a portion of the country he calls his home while his feet propered up on his desk think what else he can do to piss of the people of this country.
Two days it took him to get back to Washington- how many more people would have survived if they had food or water sooner?
Again, something that others beyond the presedent could have prevented. There were millions of people who could have sent sullpies before hand but didnt, but ok, lets just blame it all on president Bush.
I'm sorry, but I can't think of another human being I know who as president would have let thousands starve while vacationing.
Sadam Hussein for one, actully he did it on an every day ocassion, but then again that is why we are in that war as well. Soemthing I am sure you will voice agianst as well.

He should be ashamed as the president, a fellow American, and as a human being.

So as you see, I disagree with you. I am not trying to start a fight, which I am sure this will, however I believe the people and the local governement were more responsible than the President himself. I mean he didnt tell them to stay, or stop them from leaving. I am sure there were options for days before hand on how to get out. Instead of blaming everyone else lets realize that as humans we all hurt and feel bad for what these people are enduring. It is however not the end of the world, and like 9-11 we will come through it. Stronger than before, but playing the blame game does nothing but cause more problems, and people to become to negitive. Instead we need to focus on helping and leave politics out of it. It is after all an act of nature, not an act of congress.

[centralnewyorki]

Originally Posted by Marlee

If they were incapable that is one thing, however even with a limp, a cain or a wheelchair people can get out if they want to. It is a matter of will. Many people where just to lazy to do it themselves. It just depends on how badly you want to save yourself or your family.

Well, I can guarantee you that my great-aunt and hundreds of the victims with canes aren’t able to evacuate. My great-aunt wouldn’t make it to the end of the road. The will to live sometimes isn’t strong enough to carry an elderly person to safety. I don’t think that any elderly person who drowned in their home wanted to take their last breath underwater and die.

[QUOTE=Marlee]Where was the state governmet, shouldnt they be held accountable...[/COLOR][QUOTE]

Thank you for reiterating my point! I said “government” as you just did!

[QUOTE=Marlee]I have a great aunt who is 91- a real spit-fire- if she were in N.O. she would be dead at this point because she can't drive and needs a cane to walk. What else could she do but stay in her home? Get on a bus, call a taxi and leave town in the days before hand I would think. It wasnt impossible for these people to have options[QUOTE]

You assume too much. Some elderly people live from one SSI check to the next and cannot afford the bus or taxi fare. Coming up with extra money is easier said than done for some.

[QUOTE=Marlee]COLOR=Purple] They were not the only ones to divert the money, they have known for decades...yes decades these were a problem, president, after president, mayor after mayor all hold some responisblity here. Actully I would dare say every public offical would be at fault on this part to some degree.[QUOTE]

Again, thank you for reiterating my point! (and thank you for emphasing that it was decades for other readers, as I knew this having stated this problem was known when GHW was in office.) The presidents are to blame for diverting the money elsewhere. Whether it began 15 years ago or 25 years ago, studies showed that the structures would only withstand a category 3 hurricane. Every president that overlooked this finding is guilty here.

[QUOTE=Marlee]But they are not alone, they people do have a choice as to whom they have in office. Had they felt it prudent to put a responsible party in there that did what was nessisary, they many not have this problem.[QUOTE]

I’m not sure I understand your argument. I, in no way, voted for President Bush to be in office and have no control over his actions or decisions. I don’t/didn’t feel he was the responsible person to put in charge. Not all of the people voted for the administration currently in office (all levels) so to say that their suffering is their own fault doesn’t make sense, IMO

[QUOTE=Marlee]However had they done it, and it still failed people would still find a way to blame the current adminstration. That is all I have heard is how it is always they fault of the president, when in reality, it has nothing more to do with him, than it did any oter presdient preceding him.[/COLOR][QUOTE]

Again, I’m not sure I understand your argument. The entire sum of money needed to fix and strengthen the levees was not available to the State of LA or the city of N.O. The money was available through a federal fund- neither New Orlean’s mayor, nor the Lousianna Governor can tell Bush how to spend the fund.

[QUOTE=Marlee]sure they did, they help choose their own local officals, who obviously didnt feel the need to fix it until this happened. Where did their state money go, tehy had it, bush didnt redirect those funds.

Please see above!

[QUOTE=Marlee]It is also the government's responsibility to help and serve its people. To leave them stranded with no food, no water, and insufficient law-enforcement is dispicable.Again, local law enforement comes first. Hmmm, for some reason if I remember 9-11 it was the local firefighters, and police that went in first, it took a few days for real "governemt help" (i.e. military etc)there as well. [QUOTE]

Very true! However, our nation’s leader dropped his business and flew to NY as soon as he heard. It took him 2 days to leave Texas after Katrina. The local government in LA was working. The NO police chief went days without sleep or a shower. Two policemen killed themselves because of the stress they had to endure. When the local and state government can’t handle the situation, it is the federal government’s responsibility to step in. Especially when human lives are at stake.

[QUOTE=Marlee]IMO, yes, the president did cause these people to act this way. If you put that large a number of people together, scare the hell out of them, give them no information on the conditions, provide them with no food or water, then that is going to happen. Yes, I am sure that you do feel this way, however President Bush did not put fire arms in these peoples hands. He also did not tell them to shoot at people trying to help.[QUOTE]

I don’t believe this is something you could be an expert on until experiencing it, IMO.

[QUOTE=Marlee]Again in 9-11 people were scared, and had far more reason to shoot at others than in this situation, They KNEW it was comming, they had time to leave or prepare, they had choices as well.[QUOTE]

The people of New Orleans knew a hurricane was coming. The general public didn’t know the structural integrity of the levees. Few of these people died or suffered because of the hurricane conditions.

[QUOTE=Marlee]To claim that the governemt placed them in this situation is not only ridiculaous, but short sighted. THEY KNEW it was comming, they had choices, they chose to stay, to fight, to be jerks and harm others. Not the government the people.

A few chose to act that way- not the entire population stuck there. Most people had no control over the situation they were put in. The majority weren’t members of gangs. I apologize if you think my claim was “short-sighted.” I think you’d be surprised to realize that the fact for which you are calling me “short-sighted” is a fact that you yourself earlier stated: “president, after president, mayor after mayor all hold some responisblity here. Actully I would dare say every public offical would be at fault on this part to some degree.” I’m sorry if you wrongly assumed by government that I solely meant our current president.

[QUOTE=Marlee]It's the animalistic instinct in people coming out. No one can imagine the conditions these people were forced to live in for days.
I am sure this is true in America, however, many people live in worse conditions everyday all over the world, where are your crys of injustice for them.

I realize these aren’t the only people in the world suffereing. However, we’re talking about the subject at hand. If you have another subject you’d like me to post on, PM me and let me know when you’ve posted it!

[LoveMyBaby]

did anyone see todays 9/7/05 show.. they talked in the beginning of the program about doggies and they showed a YORKIE as one of the many being rescued... a doc. stayed behind in a hospital with several animals as a promise to those that were asked to evacuate... luckily they were rescued and reunited with their families

[centralnewyorki]

Please excuse the messed up quoting- it's all over the place tonight!


We are a civilized country with leading technology and somehow nothing could get to these people for days? The NASA space shuttle got to the moon in about the time our goverment got the needed supplies to New Orleans- isn't that a problem?? You are comparing apples to oranges here, in fact you would be better off leaving out this argument since at the time we went to the moon, there was no distater to speak of like this.

I apologize. I was comparing a federal agency to another federal agency. The comment was actually supposed to be sarcastic- it wasn’t an actual comparison of events as I know the two are “apples to oranges” as you said.

[QUOTE=Marlee]SO why didnt the people of NO take it seriously before it hit, no one really knew what would happen, we have hundreds of hurricanes hit this nations, and many ride them out hoping for the best, not one before has blamed the governemt for their lack of response, until now. Becasue they know it was in many cases their choice. [QUOTE]

The people of NO did take this warning seriously- those that were able to left. IMO, You’re making an incomplete argument. I don’t live in the area, so I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think the people of NO received warnings that the levees will break upon Katrina hitting land. The people stayed to ride out the hurricane. Many, if not the majority, survived Katrina with flying colors! However, the people of NO didn’t expect to have their city covered in up to 20 feet of water. People talked about the hurricane of the early 1900’s, which was as bad if not worse. The people and the city survived- people living in structurally sound homes can survive a hurricane the strength of Katrina.

[QUOTE=Marlee]And of course we all no that people here keep constant tabs on the president, give me a break, you cannot use this as actual fact. You dont know what he was doing at the time, besides when it touched ground there was literally nothing he or anyone besides god could do at that point. [QUOTE]

I apologize- I guess my argument that he was golfing wasn’t valid. I apologize for believing a fellow YTer.


[QUOTE=Marlee]I dont think any of us has any right to complain about how long it took him to get to washington, first off we have no idea what restricts he was working under, or other issues he was having to deal with as well. I am sure his days are filled with far more than most of us can imagine, it isnt an easy job. [QUOTE]

I think you’ll be interested in the photo I”ve attached to this post. It’s of the President and country singer Mark Willis on a Naval base, Tuesday, August 30- the day after Katrina hit. He’s playing a guitar, by the way. (The photo was taken from the Yahoo News site) http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/capm10208301856

[QUOTE=Marlee]Again, something that others beyond the presedent could have prevented. There were millions of people who could have sent sullpies before hand but didnt, but ok, lets just blame it all on president Bush. [QUOTE]

The difference to me is that the president has the means to supply these essentials. As much as I would have loved to release millions of dollars in federal aid to help the victims, I don’t have the authority.

I'm sorry, but I can't think of another human being I know who as president would have let thousands starve while vacationing.
Sadam Hussein for one, actully he did it on an every day ocassion, but then again that is why we are in that war as well. Soemthing I am sure you will voice agianst as well. [QUOTE]

But would Sadam ever be elected president? “Apples and oranges,” as you said. Actually, the reason President Bush gave for leading us into war was because of WMD. Assumptions of others views are better left unsaid.

Originally Posted by Marlee

So as you see, I disagree with you. I am not trying to start a fight, which I am sure this will

No fights here. I hope you’re not really getting worked up over the posts! I’m sure there are a few people who would agree that our government dropped the ball in this case. Actually President Bush is one of them, as he ordered a probe into the response of Katrina. I’m not the only person to question the government’s response (or lack there of)

In response to your final thoughts: There weren’t options for all of the people who wanted to get out. You’re right, it isn’t the end of the world. However, there are many victims that have lost everything that would appreciate such statements not being said. IMO, saying it isn’t the end of the world belittle the struggles our fellow citizens have had to endure. And sadly for some, it was the end of their world, and they perished as a result of the government’s failure to respond quickly enough. There are no politics involved- those in charge didn’t do their job. Blame needs to be placed on those who didn’t do their jobs. Would anyone say it was foolish to play blame on the CEO of Enron for ruining the company and taking many of his employee’s live saving? Absolutely not, and that’s why he is going to jail. A government needs to be held accountable for it’ actions. Without accountability, democracy is lost.

[centralnewyorki]

Originally Posted by LoveMyBaby

did anyone see todays 9/7/05 show.. they talked in the beginning of the program about doggies and they showed a YORKIE as one of the many being rescued... a doc. stayed behind in a hospital with several animals as a promise to those that were asked to evacuate... luckily they were rescued and reunited with their families

I DVRed it, but haven't watched it yet. Oprah is amazing!

[bchgirl]

Lots of finger pointing going on, but the one thing I'm certain of.....the local and state government of LA had NOT taken into consideration HOW to evacuate a large number of people who had NO transportation. These people were told to walk to the Superdome and to take their OWN provisions. That said our local officials, here in Virginia Beach, have now realized they haven't planned on a similar scenerio. I don't think the LA officials had considered the levees failing. I understand the federal government agencies weren't told people were in the convention center. Now come on, the local officials sent people there, so why wasn't someone told? I personally believe the local government is immediately to blame. As far as how long it took for the federal government to step in, the navy ship Batton was there on Tuesday with helicoptors and supplies. They are based here in Norfolk and we've read plenty of stories about them. The commander of their ship wouldn't allow his crew to fly because of the snipers. And who are these maniacs who are shooting at their rescurers?

Ever dealt with FEMA? I did after Hurrican Isabel. You can call a dozen times and get different answers each time. After Isabel, FEMA was reimbursing people for generators they had purchased. I personally know 3 people who received checks from FEMA, but everytime I called.....FEMA told me all they could give me was a low interest loan for the generator. I didn't need a stinking loan....I already OWNED the generator. It was infurating to say the least. I really pitied the people who are depending on FEMA.

I'm sorry this rambles....brain's thinking quicker than I can type. The simple fact of the matter is NO ONE....not the local, state, or federal goverment was prepared for a disaster of this magnitude. Just my 2¢

[centralnewyorki]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I understand the federal government agencies weren't told people were in the convention center. Now come on, the local officials sent people there, so why wasn't someone told? The simple fact of the matter is NO ONE....not the local, state, or federal goverment was prepared for a disaster of this magnitude. Just my 2¢

What I don't understand is how they didn't know?! The local government was definitely wrong in not telling them, but for crying out loud- it was all over the news. Every other minute they were showing the building saying that there were tens of thousands of people in there- doesn't anyone in the federal goverment own a TV? Do any of their family members? That's nearly all we talked about for days in my family!

You're absolutely right, though- government definitely wasn't prepared for this. It's just sad that so many people had to suffer to give them a wake-up call.