Me 'n Wallace

[jesscruz]

Originally Posted by DomLee

Just a word of advice...please be careful of what you say when you mention "Puppy Mill".

My fear out of these "puppy mill" threads,....is that all of a sudden, you have a Yorkietalk lynch squad.

For the sake of being Devil's advocate...

What makes you an "expert" at knowing what is a puppymill?

If you were asked to testify in court,...and they asked about your credentials...what makes you CERTIFIABLY a puppy mill expert in the eyes of the court?

If your answer is: Because I BELIEVE dogs should not blah blah blah...
then you can expect to be laughed at.

Just a word of advice to anyone on here that starts running to the hills screaming "Puppy mill"...you had better be careful. The very words that you say...can get you in a whole lot of trouble in court (libel, slander, defamation of character, etc.).

I say this...because there is at least one incident that I know about, where an automotive enthusiast had posted remarks about an automotive dealership that had performed work on his car. I don't know all the details, but from what I understand,...the dealership sued and won.

I'm not a fan of puppy mills, but I also don't like the fact that people can possibly ruin the name of a perfectly legitimate business. Most of which is behind the business owner's back, as opposed to in their face.

You don't agree w/ the way they run their business? That is fine. You are entitled to that opinion. HOWEVER, for you to run around and post remarks that can be considered libel...is wrong.

You think that a person who breeds animals (dogs) as a business is wrong. Fine. But guess what? There is NO LAW that says this is illegal. Maybe it is morally against your beliefs but that is all...

Just a word of advice...

oh my god!!!are you serious! throwing up now! so you mean to tell me that since there is no law that it's okay? if that's how you feel then i think your in the wrong place!

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by jesscruz

oh my god!!!are you serious! throwing up now! so you mean to tell me that since there is no law that it's okay? if that's how you feel then i think your in the wrong place!

I agree!

[red98vett]

Just to clarify - I am against MASS breeding whether it's a mill or not - I also think the laws need to change. Just because someone operates barely within the laws doesn't make it ok. Most of these Breeding Facilities scrape by within the law but they sure test the limits.

And yes - It goes against what many of us feel - these posts ARE our opinions. I personally have not said a name on this thread ...the only time it's mentioned is where someone is defending it.

that website LOOKED like a mill - and that is only an opinion ....Mills treat animals TERRIBLY.

I feel the reason we have so many unwanted homeless dogs is because of these facilities - there are FAR more dogs bred than people actually buy - Mills sell to Pet Stores - This guy ships to Petland - That actually is fact.

ANY BREEDER who cares about the dogs he is breeding would never sell their puppies to an awful store like Petland. The puppies are transported like MEAT. They do NOT get medical care and the trucks they are shipped in are crowded and hot - Why would anyone do this if they were compassionate and loved dogs ?

What happens to the unlucky ones ?

[DomLee]

Originally Posted by jesscruz

oh my god!!!are you serious! throwing up now! so you mean to tell me that since there is no law that it's okay? if that's how you feel then i think your in the wrong place!

Do you think it is perfectly fine for someone to run around on the internet, making claims against your business, despite NEVER having visited your facilities? And the ONLY info that an individual had, was all heresay info or pictures on a website?

I clearly stated that I was against puppy mills. HOWEVER, there is no law that forbids such a business.

Please don't take my words out of context to mean that I'm okay w/ puppy mills.

[jesscruz]

Originally Posted by DomLee

Do you think it is perfectly fine for someone to run around on the internet, making claims against your business, despite NEVER having visited your facilities? And the ONLY info that an individual had, was all heresay info or pictures on a website?

I clearly stated that I was against puppy mills. HOWEVER, there is no law that forbids such a business.

Please don't take my words out of context to mean that I'm okay w/ puppy mills.

first of all i did not take your words out of contex. you wrote what you wrote. second of all, no i don't think it's okay, if some one goes around and says things that aern't true about a buisness, but this is not the case. what people have posted are facts. facts that he has on his site. everyone knows about petland and hunt corp. if you are associated with these companies that tells me what you are.it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by DomLee

Do you think it is perfectly fine for someone to run around on the internet, making claims against your business, despite NEVER having visited your facilities? And the ONLY info that an individual had, was all heresay info or pictures on a website?

I clearly stated that I was against puppy mills. HOWEVER, there is no law that forbids such a business.

Please don't take my words out of context to mean that I'm okay w/ puppy mills.

I think there are bigger moral issues than this. Like the one of dogs suffering in the hands of millers just for profit (and no where did I mention names in this post).

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by jesscruz

first of all i did not take your words out of contex. you wrote what you wrote. second of all, no i don't think it's okay, if some one goes around and says things that aern't true about a buisness, but this is not the case. what people have posted are facts. facts that he has on his site. everyone knows about petland and hunt corp. if you are associated with these companies that tells me what you are.it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

I agree here with Jesscruz - The man IS on the net and people do talk. These are opinions on a yorkie site - the Red Flags are ALL there....On the net there are far worse things said about many Broker/Mill sites ...Search for the Wizard of Claws....Jeff Dane - Countless posts claiming terrible conditions and sick puppies and disreputable practices. What we're saying here is MILD.

I doubt we're hurting ANY of his business - None of us would buy from a place like that....I think most of us would probably report it if we were actually there.

I BOUGHT my cocker Tessa 10 years ago from what I NOW know was a mill - Believe me - It haunts you. Seeing those poor dogs in cage after cage...the noise was UNBELIEAVABLE and it smelled totally awful. 10 years ago - I was naieve...TODAY I would have had the Inspectors there.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by BrookeB676

Oh I totally dont agree with that. A puppymill is much more than that. So do you think it is ok for dogs, our precious priceless animals, to be stuck in a cage their whole lives just bc they are getting food, water, and some human contact? What you have described is the worse situation of a mill. That is the problem with the "USDA" licnese, as I mentioned earlier, they dont have many inspectors and only are able to take care of the mills as you just described above for the most part. That is why mills are able to "just get by" in terms of the living conditions for the animals. Plus, without physcially seeing where mr. Haven lives, there is no way to determine how his animals are treated. You could be speaking of a man that keeps all his dogs in one cage, which is possibly how he started mixing? I wouldnt even believe pictures if I saw them- we all know what you are able to find on the internet these days.

If dogs could speak, they would feel sad, hurt, and angry that anyone would be agreeing that it is ok for them to live a life other than the life that your pups, or my pups, or any spoiled with love pup, are able to live. I believe that if a dog cant be placed in a home that provides the love that each one of ours gives, than a breeder shouldnt breed them (and that is why most reputable breeders will place their dogs in homes that are approved). That is not to say that Mr. Haven may get lucky and place his pups in a wonderful home, but what about their parents who are stuck in the cage, or confined area, and are continuing to be bred. Just sad, sick, and scary! The scariest part is that someone might actually think a mill IS ONLY a place where dogs are mistreated. I guess I just have a different opinion of mistreatment....I am picky when it comes to how any dog has to live!

Unfrotnately that is not what our society believes and the lives of 99% of the dogs in this country are not like the lives we provide our dogs. I totally agree that every dog should live a pampered lifestyle but it is just not reality.

I feel my time is best spent going after those who actually "abuse" animals. This is where I choose to spend my money and donate my time.

Anyone who took the time to talk to Wallace Haven would be better for it.

[DomLee]

Originally Posted by jesscruz

first of all i did not take your words out of contex. you wrote what you wrote. second of all, no i don't think it's okay, if some one goes around and says things that aern't true about a buisness, but this is not the case. what people have posted are facts. facts that he has on his site. everyone knows about petland and hunt corp. if you are associated with these companies that tells me what you are.it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Let me quote myself so you can re-read exactly what I wrote:

Originally Posted by DomLee

...
I'm not a fan of puppy mills
...
You think that a person who breeds animals (dogs) as a business is wrong. Fine. But guess what? There is NO LAW that says this is illegal. Maybe it is morally against your beliefs but that is all.........

How does this say that I'm okay w/ puppy mills?

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Unfrotnately that is not what our society believes and the lives of 99% of the dogs in this country are not like the lives we provide our dogs. I totally agree that every dog should live a pampered lifestyle but it is just not reality.

I feel my time is best spent going after those who actually "abuse" animals. This is where I choose to spend my money and donate my time.

Anyone who took the time to talk to Wallace Haven would be better for it.

I like the thought here - but if that's true ...Why take the time to call and then post about this...especially since it's been already discussed ?

[Breeze]

I think these places should be stopped as I believe in preventative measures. Helping and supports shelters... is awesome and but solves only part of the problem.

We all need to try to help prevent these animals from being there in the first place by stopping the problem where it starts. THE MILLS and irresponsible bybs.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by red98vett

I like the thought here - but if that's true ...Why take the time to call and then post about this...especially since it's been already discussed ?

I took the time to call because after the debacle of the last week and a half or so and the member we discovered who was not being completely truthful was the same member who said she had received an email from this man threatening her!!!

The truth is he did no such thing and I felt it was my moral obligation to let everyone on here who read those lies to know they were not true. I think he deserved at least that from us. I had also hoped after talking to him that more of you might open your minds a bit, be less judgmental and get to know him. He is the epitomy of the Disney grandfather character and I would bet if you went to his place you would fall in love with him, it and his dogs.

I was not trying to start something .....I was trying to finish it by making it right.

Aren't you glad that he didn't send the threatening email? Aren't you shocked that someone would lie about that?

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Breeze

I think there are bigger moral issues than this. Like the one of dogs suffering in the hands of millers just for profit (and no where did I mention names in this post).

This is my point. Wallace Haven's dogs are not suffering. The dogs who are suffering deserve our time and our money.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by DomLee

Just a word of advice...please be careful of what you say when you mention "Puppy Mill".

My fear out of these "puppy mill" threads,....is that all of a sudden, you have a Yorkietalk lynch squad.

For the sake of being Devil's advocate...

What makes you an "expert" at knowing what is a puppymill?

If you were asked to testify in court,...and they asked about your credentials...what makes you CERTIFIABLY a puppy mill expert in the eyes of the court?

If your answer is: Because I BELIEVE dogs should not blah blah blah...
then you can expect to be laughed at.

Just a word of advice to anyone on here that starts running to the hills screaming "Puppy mill"...you had better be careful. The very words that you say...can get you in a whole lot of trouble in court (libel, slander, defamation of character, etc.).

I say this...because there is at least one incident that I know about, where an automotive enthusiast had posted remarks about an automotive dealership that had performed work on his car. I don't know all the details, but from what I understand,...the dealership sued and won.

I'm not a fan of puppy mills, but I also don't like the fact that people can possibly ruin the name of a perfectly legitimate business. Most of which is behind the business owner's back, as opposed to in their face.

You don't agree w/ the way they run their business? That is fine. You are entitled to that opinion. HOWEVER, for you to run around and post remarks that can be considered libel...is wrong.

You think that a person who breeds animals (dogs) as a business is wrong. Fine. But guess what? There is NO LAW that says this is illegal. Maybe it is morally against your beliefs but that is all...

Just a word of advice...

As most on here know, this is and always has been my concern when we are so judgmental and go off on these negative, accusatory "tangents" and I have certainly been the target of the lynch mobs for it. Better take cover Dom Lee.....Oh no...too late!

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I took the time to call because after the debacle of the last week and a half or so and the member we discovered who was not being completely truthful was the same member who said she had received an email from this man threatening her!!!

The truth is he did no such thing and I felt it was my moral obligation to let everyone on here who read those lies to know they were not true. I think he deserved at least that from us. I had also hoped after talking to him that more of you might open your minds a bit, be less judgmental and get to know him. He is the epitomy of the Disney grandfather character and I would bet if you went to his place you would fall in love with him, it and his dogs.

I was not trying to start something .....I was trying to finish it by making it right.

Aren't you glad that he didn't send the threatening email? Aren't you shocked that someone would lie about that?

I am happy to know that the post about the email was untrue and so was probably the vist to his place. I think it was wrong to post such things epecially since the email and post made as all believe their was a snitch among our members (supposably a lawyer). Which made everyone think of a certain member as being the snitch, I would be upset and also want to show that it was all untrue as well if it was me being made out to be a snitch.