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08-31-2005, 09:36 PM | #16 | |
BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,246
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09-01-2005, 12:06 AM | #17 |
YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,611
| Okay I think just because he keeps his kennels clean does not mean he is not a puppymill. I mean come on do you see how many freakin' dogs he has? and why have so many mixed breeds if it is not just to make money. (Why have ONE male yorkie in a cage FULL of female bichons who ever says i want a yorkie/bichon mix?) The only reason i believe that a person has that many dogs breeds and mixes just seems like he is in it for the money. JMO. There can be many defintions as to what a puppy mill is. |
09-01-2005, 02:17 AM | #18 |
Gus Is The Fuss Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Jersey
Posts: 2,277
| Even though I think we are talking in circles on this subject and getting nowhere fast, I did respond to the original thread so I feel compelled to chime in again. Everyone that responded in the heated thread gave their opinions based on what they saw on the website - the same one on this thread. My opinion hasn't changed...it's a mill. I'm against them. The issue is that black and white to me. I don't think that is the way dogs should live so someone can make money. I know there was a second thread that made it seem even worse but that doesn't change what we all thought in the first one.
__________________ Erin & Gus Gus You lost me at stay! "He is a good heart and a kind soul, and an angel on four feet." MW |
09-01-2005, 04:49 AM | #19 |
Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,946
| Don't get it [QUOTE=SoCalyorkiLvr]I was just curious if you read the historical threads on this matter? No Kim, I have not and I'm sorry about what may have happened to you on a personal note but it beats me as to what it has to do with judging this website.
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09-01-2005, 06:43 AM | #20 | |
No Longer a Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 509
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09-01-2005, 07:05 AM | #21 | |
Yorkie Kisses are the Best! Donating Member | Quote:
That site was a small scale mill - so ..... 1st - WHY defend a puppy mill ? Clean, dirty, small or large - a mill is a mill - why defend it? 2nd - We already know that visit and email and other stuff may not have happened ...ok...Fine - We move on and leave that alone. What is talking about that accomplishing ? 3rd...ANYONE can sound wonderful on the phone is right - people lie - With the protests against puppy mills all over the place - do you really THINK someone is going to brag about operating a mill ? 4th - ANY BREEDER who sells to PETLAND is VERY bad news. Would YOU buy from a breeder that sells dogs to Petland (who also buys from the largest broker) - the EVIL HUNTE CORP ? A Breeder is a too nice term for someone like him who sells that many dogs ...Plus - he has so many mixes there is only one reason - PROFIT. I hope it doesn't look like I'm picking on the User who started this thread - but wow - I just don't see whatever she is seeing in this 'nice' man. I actually am not responding any more on this thread because it's probably headed in a bad direction....but I sure am against websites like that and wish they were more regulated and in some cases - shut down. I'm so against mass breeding I want to scream - but I promise I won't. and I agree...eeeeek on those poor puppies. | |
09-01-2005, 07:07 AM | #22 | |
Donating YT 7000 Club Member | Quote:
__________________ Megan "I have my dreams, I have made plans." - The Pirate Queen All Gave Some; Some Gave All | |
09-01-2005, 07:09 AM | #23 | |
Yorkie Kisses are the Best! Donating Member | Quote:
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09-01-2005, 07:10 AM | #24 |
BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,246
| In my opinion, a puppymill is a place that is filthy, and disgusting and where dogs are mistreated and abused and there is rampant disease, sickness, and untreated injuries. If breeders care properly for the dogs, they not mistreated or abused, then they are not a puppymill in the negative sense of the word. I think it is great that someone can make money doing something they love with animals, I have no problem with cross breeding (we have yorkies because of cross breeding) and I think in the real world the law and most people treat animals like property, not like people. That is what society has determined is acceptable. Would i want my dogs to live their lives in a kennel? No, but that is no reason for me to judge someone who does when he is not breaking the law or mistreating the animal in any way. I have said repeatedly that my dogs are priceless to me and I like them more than most people (they are more honest for sure) and I would pay any amount of money to have them in my lives as they bring me and my family such joy, but I do not feel that I should be vilified because I do not think we should be trying to shut down places who breed dogs where the dogs are treated well. I think there is enough animal abuse in this country which is a far bigger emergency than these breeding operations that care properly for the dogs. JMHO. |
09-01-2005, 07:15 AM | #25 |
BANNED! Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,246
| Villette~ You have a "strong" voice on here and I think if you spoke to Wallace Haven and then came on here and gave your impressions of him it would be enlightening for all. Won't you consider a 5 minute pnone call to determine if he is what you think he is? I know it won't "prove" anything, but maybe we could at least LEARN something from your conversation with him. I am pretty sure it wouldn't change your opinion but it may benefit you to see it from his point of view as the commercial breeder. Just TALK to him. What could it hurt? |
09-01-2005, 07:24 AM | #26 | |
Yorkie Kisses are the Best! Donating Member | Quote:
I AM AGAINST MASS BREEDING - you of all people know this ...we seem to be at opposite ends of this discussion over and over. I would rather spend that 5 minute phone call trying to HELP animals rather than defend a so called "Breeder" like that just to prove people on this site wrong. Honestly - I don't know what you're going for here - IMHO - I think with your brains...you could be doing something far more constructive that could actually HELP dogs - rather than putting all this effort into defending a mass breeder. No offense - but that dude is bad news. | |
09-01-2005, 07:26 AM | #27 | |
No Longer a Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 509
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If dogs could speak, they would feel sad, hurt, and angry that anyone would be agreeing that it is ok for them to live a life other than the life that your pups, or my pups, or any spoiled with love pup, are able to live. I believe that if a dog cant be placed in a home that provides the love that each one of ours gives, than a breeder shouldnt breed them (and that is why most reputable breeders will place their dogs in homes that are approved). That is not to say that Mr. Haven may get lucky and place his pups in a wonderful home, but what about their parents who are stuck in the cage, or confined area, and are continuing to be bred. Just sad, sick, and scary! The scariest part is that someone might actually think a mill IS ONLY a place where dogs are mistreated. I guess I just have a different opinion of mistreatment....I am picky when it comes to how any dog has to live! | |
09-01-2005, 07:31 AM | #28 |
YT Addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal
Posts: 300
| Just a word of advice...please be careful of what you say when you mention "Puppy Mill". My fear out of these "puppy mill" threads,....is that all of a sudden, you have a Yorkietalk lynch squad. For the sake of being Devil's advocate... What makes you an "expert" at knowing what is a puppymill? If you were asked to testify in court,...and they asked about your credentials...what makes you CERTIFIABLY a puppy mill expert in the eyes of the court? If your answer is: Because I BELIEVE dogs should not blah blah blah... then you can expect to be laughed at. Just a word of advice to anyone on here that starts running to the hills screaming "Puppy mill"...you had better be careful. The very words that you say...can get you in a whole lot of trouble in court (libel, slander, defamation of character, etc.). I say this...because there is at least one incident that I know about, where an automotive enthusiast had posted remarks about an automotive dealership that had performed work on his car. I don't know all the details, but from what I understand,...the dealership sued and won. I'm not a fan of puppy mills, but I also don't like the fact that people can possibly ruin the name of a perfectly legitimate business. Most of which is behind the business owner's back, as opposed to in their face. You don't agree w/ the way they run their business? That is fine. You are entitled to that opinion. HOWEVER, for you to run around and post remarks that can be considered libel...is wrong. You think that a person who breeds animals (dogs) as a business is wrong. Fine. But guess what? There is NO LAW that says this is illegal. Maybe it is morally against your beliefs but that is all... Just a word of advice... |
09-01-2005, 07:33 AM | #29 | |
Puppy Luv Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Canada
Posts: 2,678
| I don't believe that these types of operations should be allowed to operate now matter how clean, or cared for they seem. Having dogs live like that for someone's profit is just wrong. Its still is a mill. Quote:
It is sad that these breeders make so many animals suffer so they can profit. Maybe the dogs he has live in a nice clean prision but what about all the puppies that those dogs will bring into this world. Can he say that he does not add to the problem of pet population? Does he spend the money to do health testing before he breeds his dogs? Does he stick to breed standards, no. Its just sad. I would only buy a puppy from a responsible breeder who cares for her pups. Breeds to better the breed and for the love. One that has a spade/neuter clause and feels not only responsible for the puppies she brings in this world but all the ones that might follow from them. And does all he/she can to prevent her animals for being abused and adding to the overwhelming pet population. Last edited by Breeze; 09-01-2005 at 07:38 AM. | |
09-01-2005, 07:35 AM | #30 |
No Longer a Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 509
| I never once associated anyone's business with a puppymill. I am speaking of the general term mill, and I dont believe that would put any business on the line. As I mentioned earlier, I dont know Mr. Wallace Haven, nor do I wish to, BUT i DO know what it means to be USDA licensed, and I do know that I personally consider any place that keeps animals in a cage to be bred most of their lives is a mill IMO. I dont know how Mr. Haven keeps his pups, I was just saying in general terms that if he did keep his pups in cages, they might get good homes, but what about the parents. That is allowed to be said, there is no business invovled with my definition. |
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