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-   -   Response from AKC concerning coat Colors (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/94914-response-akc-concerning-coat-colors.html)

Pinehaven 09-19-2007 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 1378956)
So, as far as "registering" dogs, who has the final authority? YTCA or AKC. I always thought that YTCA just gives AKC "suggestions' so to speak but AKC is the governing body on ALL registrations.

From what I've been told about AKC registering dogs is, if a pup is born out of two AKC registered dogs, the pup is eligible to be registered.

This is a breed registry, not a color registry, and even though a dog may be blue and tan, it may carry recessive genes that will produce something other than blue and tan.

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 1378956)
So, as far as "registering" dogs, who has the final authority? YTCA or AKC. I always thought that YTCA just gives AKC "suggestions' so to speak but AKC is the governing body on ALL registrations.

YTCA wrote/writes the standard but AKC has the final approval on all registries! As to the other poster it's not about color but when breeding and owning a purebred dog no matter the breed, as a responsible breeder/owner/potential owner you want the best respensation of whatever breed you choose so you go to that breed standard and try to adhrere to what is written. Breeding to just make money off designer ploys as in using the terms teacup/toy/rare is just not ethical. The reason for this thread is to get a good idea on what would be correct in color for the yorkies and I am only trying to educate. The yorkie standard says the coat is of prime importance in this breed but as I've stated before I believe health, structure, movement for me is the most important and the coat/color is just the icing on the cake! I am not trying to argue LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

diggy4 09-19-2007 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 1379037)
YTCA wrote/writes the standard but AKC has the final approval on all registries! As to the other poster it's not about color but when breeding and owning a purebred dog no matter the breed, as a responsible breeder/owner/potential owner you want the best respensation of whatever breed you choose so you go to that breed standard and try to adhrere to what is written. Breeding to just make money off designer ploys as in using the terms teacup/toy/rare is just not ethical. The reason for this thread is to get a good idea on what would be correct in color for the yorkies and I am only trying to educate. The yorkie standard says the coat is of prime importance in this breed but as I've stated before I believe health, structure, movement for me is the most important and the coat/color is just the icing on the cake! I am not trying to argue LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers
I've said it before how educating this thread is.....I for one am learnig I really dont want it to be an argument I just wanna know right from wrong and who decides what!

So do I have this right....ANY dog that come from 2 AKC parents (including tri colored and liver colors CAN be registered, but not shown in a show ring?....And AKC is limiting even more colors that is acceptable for show ring, as they can be shown if not steel blue aand tan but are considered to be faulted for color?? I hope I am getting this right lol

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggy4 (Post 1379064)
I've said it before how educating this thread is.....I for one am learnig I really dont want it to be an argument I just wanna know right from wrong and who decides what!

So do I have this right....ANY dog that come from 2 AKC parents (including tri colored and liver colors CAN be registered, but not shown in a show ring?....And AKC is limiting even more colors that is acceptable for show ring, as they can be shown if not steel blue aand tan but are considered to be faulted for color?? I hope I am getting this right lol
Yes, if you have two registered AKC parents you can register the dog. However, I have been to the AKC website under alternate colors and didn't see a coding for liver or any other color than what's stated on my litter registration papers. If there is a place that says you can register that color then someone please show it to me or direct me to the correct place on AKC. Yes, starting in October our DQ will go into affect in the show ring. You can take any color yorkie in the ring but expect to be dismissed, excused and starting in October DQ'ed on what was revised in the yorkie standard. I"m glad you are learing alot as I am learning more as this thread goes on. It's nice to see someone that wants the education in this wonderful breed we share! I am by far NOT an expert and still in the learning process myself and will always learn something new of this breed I'm sure for a very long time. When you stop learning it's time to hang it up in my opinion!
Thanks for this thread it's been very enlightening!
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

diggy4 09-19-2007 05:50 AM
So far so good then I do have the basic concept going....(i think lol)

So (hypothetically) Bella and Diggy breed (she is spayed, and he is her brother so this is VERY hypothetically) they have 4 babies. Both Bella & Diggy are Registered through AKC and Diggy is DNA'ed thru AKC (that part is true) I go to register the puppies with limited registration, 2 of the puppies are tri colored and 2 are steel blue/tan....what do I do? Is this the part where I send in pictures to prove 2 registered AKC dogs had tri colored babies? Is this the reason you have DNA done on studs?

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 06:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggy4 (Post 1379123)
So far so good then I do have the basic concept going....(i think lol)

So (hypothetically) Bella and Diggy breed (she is spayed, and he is her brother so this is VERY hypothetically) they have 4 babies. Both Bella & Diggy are Registered through AKC and Diggy is DNA'ed thru AKC (that part is true) I go to register the puppies with limited registration, 2 of the puppies are tri colored and 2 are steel blue/tan....what do I do? Is this the part where I send in pictures to prove 2 registered AKC dogs had tri colored babies? Is this the reason you have DNA done on studs?

You have the basic concept :) On registering the tri color I have no clue what you'd do because I haven't had that problem in my breedings so far and with the lines I've started with to my knowledge doesn't have that color either. I started out with well established lines so to be honest I don't think I will have to worry about that. If I ever did I would not register that puppy due to the incorrect coloring and spay and neuter anything that didn't produce what is acceptable by AKC and the YTCA standard. I hope that made sense LOL Wish I could be more helpful on registering a tri color or liver/chocolate because I just don't have those in my lines.
Hope this helps some LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

diggy4 09-19-2007 06:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 1379174)
You have the basic concept :) On registering the tri color I have no clue what you'd do because I haven't had that problem in my breedings so far and with the lines I've started with to my knowledge doesn't have that color either. I started out with well established lines so to be honest I don't think I will have to worry about that. If I ever did I would not register that puppy due to the incorrect coloring and spay and neuter anything that didn't produce what is acceptable by AKC and the YTCA standard. I hope that made sense LOL Wish I could be more helpful on registering a tri color or liver/chocolate because I just don't have those in my lines.
Hope this helps some LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers
I am glad I have the concept down now lol thank you! Alright next question lol What is the point to registering a puppy with limited registration? If they are not to be bred, and say it has many faults like bite, eyes, etc., why would that pup be registered at all? Is it a record keeping thing? or something else I don't know about?

Pinehaven 09-19-2007 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggy4 (Post 1379123)
So far so good then I do have the basic concept going....(i think lol)

So (hypothetically) Bella and Diggy breed (she is spayed, and he is her brother so this is VERY hypothetically) they have 4 babies. Both Bella & Diggy are Registered through AKC and Diggy is DNA'ed thru AKC (that part is true) I go to register the puppies with limited registration, 2 of the puppies are tri colored and 2 are steel blue/tan....what do I do? Is this the part where I send in pictures to prove 2 registered AKC dogs had tri colored babies? Is this the reason you have DNA done on studs?
If I were in that position, I would have the dam DNAd, as well as the two parti puppies, the Sire is already DNAd. This way, there is no shadow of doubt, that the pups are the product of the 2 traditional colored sire and dam and no one can claim that "another dog" got your yorkie pregnant. Both the sire and dam had to be carriers of the gene in order to produce parti puppies.

You send in the 2 photos of the parti colored pups when getting them registered (maybe so AKC can see that they have enough white to be registered as parti's? - I'm not sure if that's why they want photos but it's just my guess). The two traditional colored pups, just register as you normally would.

I don't think studs need to be DNAd until they've had a certain number of litters, or for semen transport or are imported breeding stock ...

diggy4 09-19-2007 06:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinehaven (Post 1379215)
If I were in that position, I would have the dam DNAd, as well as the two parti puppies, the Sire is already DNAd. This way, there is no shadow of doubt, that the pups are the product of the 2 traditional colored sire and dam and no one can claim that "another dog" got your yorkie pregnant. Both the sire and dam had to be carriers of the gene in order to produce parti puppies.

You send in the 2 photos of the parti colored pups when getting them registered (maybe so AKC can see that they have enough white to be registered as parti's? - I'm not sure if that's why they want photos but it's just my guess). The two traditional colored pups, just register as you normally would.

I don't think studs need to be DNAd until they've had a certain number of litters, or for semen transport or are imported breeding stock ...
thanks for reply, so dams get dna'd also?? I did not now that either...Makes perfect sense why they would be tho...I was wondering thru this whole thread, like Diggy and say Your baby mate, and throw tri colors....who is to say Your dog is the dam in the first place?? Get what I am saying?? I could then say oh it's Bella thats the mom...I realize it's very unethical and noone wants to think that would happen but I bet it does...people are just that way sometimes...So if the female AND male are dna'ed there would be no doubt where the pups came from. I GET IT!!! (i think) lol ;)

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggy4 (Post 1379210)
I am glad I have the concept down now lol thank you! Alright next question lol What is the point to registering a puppy with limited registration? If they are not to be bred, and say it has many faults like bite, eyes, etc., why would that pup be registered at all? Is it a record keeping thing? or something else I don't know about?
AKC likes to have them registerd for the money in my opinion LOL. Personally if you register a dog on limited registration it's only because the new owner can say it's AKC. Personally I wouldn't register a puppy with limited registration it's not used in a breeding program so no need to be registered. My first yorkie was AKC I had the application but chose not to send in I knew she was AKC but I had her spayed. I have another yorkie now that I never transfered the papers because he's neutered and no reason too. The person I got him from doesn't care so therefore I didn't feel the need to waste money. It's a personal choice. In my opinion!
Donna

Pinehaven 09-19-2007 06:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggy4 (Post 1379230)
thanks for reply, so dams get dna'd also?? I did not now that either...Makes perfect sense why they would be tho...I was wondering thru this whole thread, like Diggy and say Your baby mate, and throw tri colors....who is to say Your dog is the dam in the first place?? Get what I am saying?? I could then say oh it's Bella thats the mom...I realize it's very unethical and noone wants to think that would happen but I bet it does...people are just that way sometimes...So if the female AND male are dna'ed there would be no doubt where the pups came from. I GET IT!!! (i think) lol ;)
Normally you don't need to DNA dams, but in this sort of case I would get the dam DNAd just to keep people from thinking something "funny" was going on.

Pinehaven 09-19-2007 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 1379174)
You have the basic concept :) On registering the tri color I have no clue what you'd do because I haven't had that problem in my breedings so far and with the lines I've started with to my knowledge doesn't have that color either. I started out with well established lines so to be honest I don't think I will have to worry about that. If I ever did I would not register that puppy due to the incorrect coloring and spay and neuter anything that didn't produce what is acceptable by AKC and the YTCA standard. I hope that made sense LOL Wish I could be more helpful on registering a tri color or liver/chocolate because I just don't have those in my lines.
Hope this helps some LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Would Nikkos be considered a well established line?

diggy4 09-19-2007 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 1379236)
AKC likes to have them registerd for the money in my opinion LOL. Personally if you register a dog on limited registration it's only because the new owner can say it's AKC. Personally I wouldn't register a puppy with limited registration it's not used in a breeding program so no need to be registered. My first yorkie was AKC I had the application but chose not to send in I knew she was AKC but I had her spayed. I have another yorkie now that I never transfered the papers because he's neutered and no reason too. The person I got him from doesn't care so therefore I didn't feel the need to waste money. It's a personal choice. In my opinion!
Donna
okay got ya, so I was thinking right then....well I shouldnt say "right" but along the same lines as you...I could careless if Bella was registered with Target, she is spayed, mine, and right from the get go I knew wayyyy to small to breed and I am simply a chicken, I'd never want to be the owner of the dam thats being bred....Ill leave that to you!! lol

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 06:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinehaven (Post 1379248)
Would Nikkos be considered a well established line?

I'm sorry I haven't heard of those lines. My dogs go back to This Time, Pastoral, Aero, Durrer, Montclair, Rothby, NicNak. I don't have my line developed because I'm just really starting out and developing what I hope to be my lines one day. Great lines that my dogs have. I wish I knew more about Nikkos.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

YorkieRose 09-19-2007 06:44 AM
Nikko's
 
I would say Nikko's is a well established line...the line is behind C.D.Higgins as I recall..correct me if I wrong...

diggy4 09-19-2007 06:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinehaven (Post 1379248)
Would Nikkos be considered a well established line?
check your PM's :D

diggy4 09-19-2007 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 1379287)
I'm sorry I haven't heard of those lines. My dogs go back to This Time, Pastoral, Aero, Durrer, Montclair, Rothby, NicNak. I don't have my line developed because I'm just really starting out and developing what I hope to be my lines one day. Great lines that my dogs have. I wish I knew more about Nikkos.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers
Well i must be learning a little as I have heard of Durrer and Pastoral !!! Just in passing in here but i guess thats a start :)

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggy4 (Post 1379276)
okay got ya, so I was thinking right then....well I shouldnt say "right" but along the same lines as you...I could careless if Bella was registered with Target, she is spayed, mine, and right from the get go I knew wayyyy to small to breed and I am simply a chicken, I'd never want to be the owner of the dam thats being bred....Ill leave that to you!! lol

I'd rather not breed but show instead LOL but in order to have show dogs you have to breed to the best of your ability. I love the showing aspect of this breed! That is where my passion lies! If I were to ever buy a pet from someone else but I don't need too since I do breed I wouldn't register myself but with breeding I register the litter and leave it up to the individual who adopts one of my babies but I place on a spay and neuter contract with limited registration. I give NO breeding rights unless it's for a show dog but I don't sell show dogs because I am still learning the ropes in breeding.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

TammyJM 09-19-2007 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinehaven (Post 1379248)
Would Nikkos be considered a well established line?
Sue~

Just wanted to say,"HI!"....also,good question about the the Nikko line. ;)

Tammy

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 1379291)
I would say Nikko's is a well established line...the line is behind C.D.Higgins as I recall..correct me if I wrong...

I am still studying pedigrees and C.D. Higgins is from an old line which I'm not familiar with yet. Again, I'm still studying pedigrees and learning all I can about the ones my dogs have at this point. After I get those down then I start with the older pedigrees that had great lines! C.D. Higgins still holds the # of Best in Show record in yorkie history in the US then comes Oliver owned by Mary and breed by Kay. Oliver holds the # of Best in Speicalty Record in yorkie history in the US and is #2 Best in Show behind C.D. Higgins.
Some great yorkies they were and are!
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Sugar's Mom 09-19-2007 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinehaven (Post 1379017)
From what I've been told about AKC registering dogs is, if a pup is born out of two AKC registered dogs, the pup is eligible to be registered.

This is a breed registry, not a color registry, and even though a dog may be blue and tan, it may carry recessive genes that will produce something other than blue and tan.

that isn't what I am asking. it just seems that the tone here is that the YTCA tells the AKC what to do from a lot of these posts. That is why I am asking. I have had AKC registered dogs all my VERY LONG life and never heard of anyone else ever being able to tell them what to register. I am trying to sort all this out and you gals are a wealth of info.

Pinehaven 09-19-2007 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 1379291)
I would say Nikko's is a well established line...the line is behind C.D.Higgins as I recall..correct me if I wrong...
Nikkos has been breeding and showing for approximately 40 years and there are numerous Nikkos champions. This is also the most prolific line of parti carriers and producers. I'm just trying to point out that no matter how careful you think you are, there still may be some genes in your dog that could pop up somewhere.

I'm just trying to educate people as well. I understand and respect the point of the show breeder but I'm trying open the eyes of all (or even one or two).

If parti is born out of some of the most respected show lines, why should the color of that dog make him any less a yorkie than his full sibling who's blue and tan. Same DNA, same mom and dad.

Same goes for Black and chocolate and golden. I'm especially saddened for the owners of Black coated dogs. Where they were once able to show and win they will now be DQ'd due to the new ruling.

Pinehaven 09-19-2007 07:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 1379308)
Sue~

Just wanted to say,"HI!"....also,good question about the the Nikko line. ;)

Tammy

Hi Tammy ... Glad you're here!

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 1379351)
that isn't what I am asking. it just seems that the tone here is that the YTCA tells the AKC what to do from a lot of these posts. That is why I am asking. I have had AKC registered dogs all my VERY LONG life and never heard of anyone else ever being able to tell them what to register. I am trying to sort all this out and you gals are a wealth of info.
The parent club writes the standard but AKC has to approve it and the parent club can make changes but AKC has to approve it. But once a change in the standard is made or considered it can't be done again for 5 years to my understanding. I will stand corrected if I am wrong. The YTCA tries to educate others on what the standard is and what should be followed by the standard! I hope this made sense.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinehaven (Post 1379367)
Nikkos has been breeding and showing for approximately 40 years and there are numerous Nikkos champions. This is also the most prolific line of parti carriers and producers. I'm just trying to point out that no matter how careful you think you are, there still may be some genes in your dog that could pop up somewhere.

I'm just trying to educate people as well. I understand and respect the point of the show breeder but I'm trying open the eyes of all (or even one or two).

If parti is born out of some of the most respected show lines, why should the color of that dog make him any less a yorkie than his full sibling who's blue and tan. Same DNA, same mom and dad.

Same goes for Black and chocolate and golden. I'm especially saddened for the owners of Black coated dogs. Where they were once able to show and win they will now be DQ'd due to the new ruling.
The DQ only will be applied to any white no longer than an inch on the forechest or any other color on the head and body. Nothing is in the DQ about DQ'ing a black and tan yorkie, even tho in my opinion it shouldn't be shown it's not the standard. This was written to not let Parti's/Briewers to participate in the show ring in the yorkie breed if that is to my understanding. I will not get into a debate about the parti gene as I do not know enough about it to debate about it.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

TammyJM 09-19-2007 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 1379397)
The DQ only will be applied to any white no longer than an inch on the forechest or any other color on the head and body. Nothing is in the DQ about DQ'ing a black and tan yorkie, even tho in my opinion it shouldn't be shown it's not the standard. This was written to not let Parti's/Briewers to participate in the show ring in the yorkie breed if that is to my understanding. I will not get into a debate about the parti gene as I do not know enough about it to debate about it.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers
I guess now I am confused because I thought that,starting in October, any color other than what YTCA has deemed standard would be DQ'ed in the show ring....including the black coat. :confused:

As for Sue's post (pinehaven), I did not interpret it as being a debate. How I read it was that she is merely trying to educate.

Tammy

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 07:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TammyJM (Post 1379422)
I guess now I am confused because I thought that,starting in October, any color other than what YTCA has deemed standard would be DQ'ed in the show ring....including the black coat. :confused:

As for Sue's post (pinehaven), I did not interpret it as being a debate. How I read it was that she is merely trying to educate.

Tammy

the DQ that has been added will affect anything considered white because of parti's and briewers in the show ring.....I'm afraid if I comment on the parti it could end up a debate LOL sorry but I'm very opinionated when it comes to breeding outside the standard and most reputable breeders today have elimited things that are not part of the standard written or let me rephrase SHOULD HAVE OR SHOULD LOL. I don't mean to sound rude and I apologize for that so I have opted to not get into something I know nothing about. Educating on the parti is something I'm not interested in because it's not in the standard. Please don't throw a shoe at me LOL
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

Pinehaven 09-19-2007 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 1379397)
The DQ only will be applied to any white no longer than an inch on the forechest or any other color on the head and body. Nothing is in the DQ about DQ'ing a black and tan yorkie, even tho in my opinion it shouldn't be shown it's not the standard. This was written to not let Parti's/Briewers to participate in the show ring in the yorkie breed if that is to my understanding. I will not get into a debate about the parti gene as I do not know enough about it to debate about it.
Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers
According to the new ruling, any color or combination of colors other than blue and tan will be disqualified ... since black and tan is not blue and tan, they will be DQd.

Brooklynn 09-19-2007 07:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinehaven (Post 1379451)
According to the new ruling, any color or combination of colors other than blue and tan will be disqualified ... since black and tan is not blue and tan, they will be DQd.

Had a well known judge state this past weekend that a puppy with white anywhere on his head will be DQ'ed and that is not what the new DQ means either...so it will go back to what the judge interputs as black or blue. Some judges are color blind. More dogs that have white on them will be more so be DQ'ed than a black dog. JMO

AMD 09-19-2007 07:52 AM
I don't belong in this thread, but I just wanted to stick my head in, and say thank you for this thread.

I am in the beginnings of the show world, and am trying to get a show pup from the Durrer line. This thread has been so informative. I just wanted to say thank you!!!


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