I'm scared, does this sound like liver shunt? - YorkieTalk.com Forums

paulapoo · 05-15-2007, 09:24 AM

Yesterday Otis was acting a little odd. He seemed to be kind of looking at something that wasn't there, but He did not press his head against anything. No circling. He was more clingy than usual, and for about 5 minutes he shivered a little bit. Then later I let him outside and he ran the fence with the neighbors dog like normal and was fine the rest of the night. I guess I'll just keep an eye on him. He just turned 3. I search old threads for symptoms of liver shunt. I'm scared to death because I lost my first Yorkie in 2004 to liver shunt but I didn't know that's what it was at the time. Maybe I should start saving for a blood test, what do you think wise ones? It makes me sick to my stomach to think something bad could be starting with him.

red98vett · 05-15-2007, 09:44 AM

hmmmm...I have NO experience with LS but the shivering would bother me if thats not something he does on occasion....Simple blood tests are well worth it just for your peace of mind ...but if he isn't losing weight or showing other signs I wouldn't panic.....

I hope he's ok....

drawlins27 · 05-15-2007, 09:59 AM

It sounds like Liver Shunt is a possibility. To test for a liver shunt you need to have a bile acid test done. It really isn't that expensive and is well worth it. I just had one done on Lily the other day and I think it was $45. I would have one done just to be on the safe side.

It could have also been a seizure. Check with your vet and see what he/she thinks.

paulapoo · 05-15-2007, 10:01 AM

Thanks, I just called his breeder, she is an elderly woman (quite elderly) but She says she's had no problems with liver shunt in the past. I'm hoping this was just me being paranoid and imaging bad things because of losing my Shorty dog to this a few years ago. I hope he'll be fine today when I get home from work. I think I'll go ahead and have the blood test.

Yorkieluv · 05-15-2007, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drawlins27

It sounds like Liver Shunt is a possibility. To test for a liver shunt you need to have a bile acid test done. It really isn't that expensive and is well worth it. I just had one done on Lily the other day and I think it was $45. I would have one done just to be on the safe side.

It could have also been a seizure. Check with your vet and see what he/she thinks.

I agree 100% A bile acid test is not that expensive, and you should get it done for peace of mind. My yorkie has intrahepatic liver shunt/MVD....

Yorkieluv · 05-15-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulapoo

Thanks, I just called his breeder, she is an elderly woman (quite elderly) but She says she's had no problems with liver shunt in the past. I'm hoping this was just me being paranoid and imaging bad things because of losing my Shorty dog to this a few years ago. I hope he'll be fine today when I get home from work. I think I'll go ahead and have the blood test.

Breeders always say that they have had no problems with liver shunts...

drawlins27 · 05-15-2007, 10:06 AM

Request a bile acid test if you want to test for a liver shunt. The blood test will only "suggest" if liver shunt is a possibility. I have had a dog whose blood test was normal but did indeed have liver shunt. No test is definitive for liver shunt but the bile acid test is more accurate. Also speak with your vet about the possibility of a seizure. The more I think about it the more it sounds like it could have been a mild seizure.

drawlins27 · 05-15-2007, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

Breeders always say that they have had no problems with liver shunts...

That is so true. Ask her if she has the puppies tested for liver shunt before she sells them. That will most likely give you your answer right there.

Sukoshi's Mom · 05-15-2007, 10:09 AM

I thought the tests for liver shunts were expensive too! I'm glad to hear that they aren't, and it's definitely something I'll ask about the next time I'm at the vet. Like you said...peace of mind. I hope your baby is ok. I'd just keep an eye on him and see if he does it again. My friend had to have her 6-month old Yorkie put down because of liver shunts, and he was walking into walks, having bad seizures, etc (much worse than your baby). At least you're keeping an eye on him and catching it early. And it's probably nothing.

Yorkieluv · 05-15-2007, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drawlins27

Request a bile acid test if you want to test for a liver shunt. The blood test will only "suggest" if liver shunt is a possibility. I have had a dog whose blood test was normal but did indeed have liver shunt. No test is definitive for liver shunt but the bile acid test is more accurate. Also speak with your vet about the possibility of a seizure. The more I think about it the more it sounds like it could have been a mild seizure.

Yes, a regular bloodtest won't necessarily show liver shunt, has to be bile acid test specifically.

Lara · 05-15-2007, 10:18 AM

Portal Caval Shunts (Liver Shunts)
Race Foster, DVM
Marty Smith, DVM
Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.

This much-discussed disorder is most commonly the result of improper fetal development of the circulatory system. To thoroughly understand liver shunts, it is important to have an understanding of the development of blood vessels in the fetus. The fetus, through the placenta, umbilical vein and artery, is connected to the mother's circulatory system (bloodstream). Therefore, the liquid portion of the blood of the fetus can move into the mother's bloodstream, but the cells cannot. The mother's liver then performs the important liver functions, such as eliminating wastes, for the fetus. The mother's liver is necessary for this, since the fetal liver is just developing and is not yet capable of many functions including removing metabolic wastes from the fetal bloodstream, storing minerals, and enzyme production. Because the fetal liver is underdeveloped, the fetus possesses blood vessels which transport blood around the developing liver rather than to and through it. This is necessary, since the small developing fetal liver cannot filter or handle the full quantity of blood that needs to be filtered. When the fetus is born, the placenta, umbilical vein and artery (jointly referred to as the umbilical cord) are severed and are no longer functional. Once the umbilical cord is cut at birth, there is no longer this connection between the mother and the just-born puppy. At this point, the puppy must rely on his own liver functions and not that of his mother.
At or about the time of birthing (whelping), the blood vessels within the fetus, which allowed blood to bypass the developing fetal liver, must close. Once these vessels close, the puppy's blood is forced to pass through the puppy's now developed liver. If these fetal vessels fail to close, then blood is allowed to abnormally be shunted around the liver, hence the name liver shunt. When blood is shunted around the liver rather than to and through it, the liver is not able to filter all of the blood, and therefore, toxic metabolic wastes such as ammonia are not adequately removed from the bloodstream. The degree to which blood is shunted around the liver is dependent on the extent to which shunting vessels persist. Liver shunts may be large allowing much blood to bypass the liver, or they may be partially closed allowing only small amounts of blood to shunt around the liver. The extent of blood shunting varies with every dog.

What are the symptoms?

The symptoms of liver shunts vary and are directly related to the extent of blood shunting. If the liver is receiving and processing 95 percent of the puppy's blood, the symptoms may be few, if any. More severe shunts are life threatening with many symptoms. Symptoms may be evident in these puppies at only a few weeks of age and may include low growth rates, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, salivation, increased urination, seizures, and death. Dogs with less severe liver shunts may not exhibit any clinical signs until the puppy is much older, even up to a year of age.

What are the risks?

All liver shunts, whether mild or severe, are considered serious and life threatening. Even mild liver shunts generally exhibit greater symptoms as the puppy increases in body size. The larger the puppy the more metabolic wastes produced, and therefore, the more the liver is needed. Most affected dogs will not live a normal life expectancy unless the abnormality is corrected.

What is the management?

Management techniques for liver shunts have improved. The best and preferred treatment is to identify the abnormal blood vessels and surgically close them, eliminating the shunt. This will require sophisticated testing and may include radiographs (x-rays), laboratory blood analysis, ultrasound, and intravenous dye studies. The expense and results are variable depending on the degree of shunting, age, and symptoms. In addition to surgery, alterations in diet, and administration of medications are often beneficial. Restricted protein diets help reduce the production of the toxic waste, ammonia, and will therefore help lessen the need for liver detoxification. Owners and veterinarians should thoroughly discuss the seriousness, expense, and expected outcome associated with the management of all individuals suspected of having a liver shunt.

paulapoo · 05-15-2007, 10:20 AM

Do you guys think I should start low protein food just as a precaution. He's very sensitive to food changes but if it would help, I'll do it. I'm not sure about a seizure, it was almost like there was a flea or something crawling on top of his head and he was trying to figure out what it was. He was able to be distracted with other things throughout it all and the shivers may have been because I cut his hair really short yesterday, he could have been chilly. Can you guys tell I'm trying to talk myself out of this. Thanks for all the advice. I don't want to lose another baby to this. I'm not sure I"d make it.

paulapoo · 05-15-2007, 10:21 AM

Also, I called the vet, they charge 51.00 for the bile acid test. He'll have it done Friday, May 25th.

Yorkieluv · 05-15-2007, 11:33 AM

Glad to hear you went ahead and made the appointment. It's worth it. What kind of food do you have him on?

paulapoo · 05-15-2007, 11:41 AM

He eats pedigree.

05-15-2007, 09:24 AM	#1
paulapoo Blessed by Otis & Ollie Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Plainfield, Indiana Posts: 2,884	I'm scared, does this sound like liver shunt? Yesterday Otis was acting a little odd. He seemed to be kind of looking at something that wasn't there, but He did not press his head against anything. No circling. He was more clingy than usual, and for about 5 minutes he shivered a little bit. Then later I let him outside and he ran the fence with the neighbors dog like normal and was fine the rest of the night. I guess I'll just keep an eye on him. He just turned 3. I search old threads for symptoms of liver shunt. I'm scared to death because I lost my first Yorkie in 2004 to liver shunt but I didn't know that's what it was at the time. Maybe I should start saving for a blood test, what do you think wise ones? It makes me sick to my stomach to think something bad could be starting with him. __________________ ~Paula~ proud mommy of ~Otis (yorkie) & Oliver (shih-poo)

05-15-2007, 09:44 AM	#2
red98vett Yorkie Kisses are the Best! Donating Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Houston TX Posts: 33,590 Blog Entries: 1	hmmmm...I have NO experience with LS but the shivering would bother me if thats not something he does on occasion....Simple blood tests are well worth it just for your peace of mind ...but if he isn't losing weight or showing other signs I wouldn't panic..... I hope he's ok.... __________________ Villette, Chanel & Cheri www.DesignsByVillette.net Custom Address Labels and Note Cards using YOUR Photos! Just Click HERE!

05-15-2007, 09:59 AM	#3
drawlins27 Mommy's Lil' Miracle Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Mufreesboro, TN Posts: 1,028	It sounds like Liver Shunt is a possibility. To test for a liver shunt you need to have a bile acid test done. It really isn't that expensive and is well worth it. I just had one done on Lily the other day and I think it was $45. I would have one done just to be on the safe side. It could have also been a seizure. Check with your vet and see what he/she thinks. __________________ I LOVE my little Furbutts! Last edited by drawlins27; 05-15-2007 at 10:01 AM.

05-15-2007, 10:01 AM	#4
paulapoo Blessed by Otis & Ollie Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Plainfield, Indiana Posts: 2,884	Thanks, I just called his breeder, she is an elderly woman (quite elderly) but She says she's had no problems with liver shunt in the past. I'm hoping this was just me being paranoid and imaging bad things because of losing my Shorty dog to this a few years ago. I hope he'll be fine today when I get home from work. I think I'll go ahead and have the blood test. __________________ ~Paula~ proud mommy of ~Otis (yorkie) & Oliver (shih-poo)

05-15-2007, 10:06 AM	#7
drawlins27 Mommy's Lil' Miracle Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Mufreesboro, TN Posts: 1,028	Request a bile acid test if you want to test for a liver shunt. The blood test will only "suggest" if liver shunt is a possibility. I have had a dog whose blood test was normal but did indeed have liver shunt. No test is definitive for liver shunt but the bile acid test is more accurate. Also speak with your vet about the possibility of a seizure. The more I think about it the more it sounds like it could have been a mild seizure. __________________ I LOVE my little Furbutts!

05-15-2007, 10:09 AM	#9
Sukoshi's Mom I Love My Rugrats Donating Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: SoCal Posts: 2,578	I thought the tests for liver shunts were expensive too! I'm glad to hear that they aren't, and it's definitely something I'll ask about the next time I'm at the vet. Like you said...peace of mind. I hope your baby is ok. I'd just keep an eye on him and see if he does it again. My friend had to have her 6-month old Yorkie put down because of liver shunts, and he was walking into walks, having bad seizures, etc (much worse than your baby). At least you're keeping an eye on him and catching it early. And it's probably nothing. __________________ *Lisa* , Sukoshi, and Tanuki Sukoshi 's Diggy Sukoshi's 1st Birthday Party

05-15-2007, 10:18 AM	#11
Lara Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Africa Posts: 103	I hope this helps you Portal Caval Shunts (Liver Shunts) Race Foster, DVM Marty Smith, DVM Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc. This much-discussed disorder is most commonly the result of improper fetal development of the circulatory system. To thoroughly understand liver shunts, it is important to have an understanding of the development of blood vessels in the fetus. The fetus, through the placenta, umbilical vein and artery, is connected to the mother's circulatory system (bloodstream). Therefore, the liquid portion of the blood of the fetus can move into the mother's bloodstream, but the cells cannot. The mother's liver then performs the important liver functions, such as eliminating wastes, for the fetus. The mother's liver is necessary for this, since the fetal liver is just developing and is not yet capable of many functions including removing metabolic wastes from the fetal bloodstream, storing minerals, and enzyme production. Because the fetal liver is underdeveloped, the fetus possesses blood vessels which transport blood around the developing liver rather than to and through it. This is necessary, since the small developing fetal liver cannot filter or handle the full quantity of blood that needs to be filtered. When the fetus is born, the placenta, umbilical vein and artery (jointly referred to as the umbilical cord) are severed and are no longer functional. Once the umbilical cord is cut at birth, there is no longer this connection between the mother and the just-born puppy. At this point, the puppy must rely on his own liver functions and not that of his mother. At or about the time of birthing (whelping), the blood vessels within the fetus, which allowed blood to bypass the developing fetal liver, must close. Once these vessels close, the puppy's blood is forced to pass through the puppy's now developed liver. If these fetal vessels fail to close, then blood is allowed to abnormally be shunted around the liver, hence the name liver shunt. When blood is shunted around the liver rather than to and through it, the liver is not able to filter all of the blood, and therefore, toxic metabolic wastes such as ammonia are not adequately removed from the bloodstream. The degree to which blood is shunted around the liver is dependent on the extent to which shunting vessels persist. Liver shunts may be large allowing much blood to bypass the liver, or they may be partially closed allowing only small amounts of blood to shunt around the liver. The extent of blood shunting varies with every dog. What are the symptoms? The symptoms of liver shunts vary and are directly related to the extent of blood shunting. If the liver is receiving and processing 95 percent of the puppy's blood, the symptoms may be few, if any. More severe shunts are life threatening with many symptoms. Symptoms may be evident in these puppies at only a few weeks of age and may include low growth rates, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, salivation, increased urination, seizures, and death. Dogs with less severe liver shunts may not exhibit any clinical signs until the puppy is much older, even up to a year of age. What are the risks? All liver shunts, whether mild or severe, are considered serious and life threatening. Even mild liver shunts generally exhibit greater symptoms as the puppy increases in body size. The larger the puppy the more metabolic wastes produced, and therefore, the more the liver is needed. Most affected dogs will not live a normal life expectancy unless the abnormality is corrected. What is the management? Management techniques for liver shunts have improved. The best and preferred treatment is to identify the abnormal blood vessels and surgically close them, eliminating the shunt. This will require sophisticated testing and may include radiographs (x-rays), laboratory blood analysis, ultrasound, and intravenous dye studies. The expense and results are variable depending on the degree of shunting, age, and symptoms. In addition to surgery, alterations in diet, and administration of medications are often beneficial. Restricted protein diets help reduce the production of the toxic waste, ammonia, and will therefore help lessen the need for liver detoxification. Owners and veterinarians should thoroughly discuss the seriousness, expense, and expected outcome associated with the management of all individuals suspected of having a liver shunt. __________________ "Sir Lee-Roy"

05-15-2007, 10:20 AM	#12
paulapoo Blessed by Otis & Ollie Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Plainfield, Indiana Posts: 2,884	Do you guys think I should start low protein food just as a precaution. He's very sensitive to food changes but if it would help, I'll do it. I'm not sure about a seizure, it was almost like there was a flea or something crawling on top of his head and he was trying to figure out what it was. He was able to be distracted with other things throughout it all and the shivers may have been because I cut his hair really short yesterday, he could have been chilly. Can you guys tell I'm trying to talk myself out of this. Thanks for all the advice. I don't want to lose another baby to this. I'm not sure I"d make it. __________________ ~Paula~ proud mommy of ~Otis (yorkie) & Oliver (shih-poo)

05-15-2007, 10:21 AM	#13
paulapoo Blessed by Otis & Ollie Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Plainfield, Indiana Posts: 2,884	Also, I called the vet, they charge 51.00 for the bile acid test. He'll have it done Friday, May 25th. __________________ ~Paula~ proud mommy of ~Otis (yorkie) & Oliver (shih-poo)

05-15-2007, 11:33 AM	#14
Yorkieluv Donating YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: USA Posts: 7,178	Glad to hear you went ahead and made the appointment. It's worth it. What kind of food do you have him on? __________________ Miko 's his Mommy

05-15-2007, 11:41 AM	#15
paulapoo Blessed by Otis & Ollie Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Plainfield, Indiana Posts: 2,884	He eats pedigree. __________________ ~Paula~ proud mommy of ~Otis (yorkie) & Oliver (shih-poo)