teacup yorkies

[BeanSprout]

I know what you mean about people thinking your dog is freaking "weird" for being 5 or 6 or 7lbs! This woman at the Vet's office was like "wow, is that a Yorkie??!!".[B]

Word to that!!!
Even my friends are guilty of this nonsense.... I bought BeanSprout because I wanted a robust healthy Yorkie. My 15lb ragdoll cats would have killed a smaller Yorkie.

[ingallsra]

Originally Posted by Stitches29

If your baby girl will fit in a tea cup, then that's what you should name her. My Maggie is already 3.5 lbs, at 13 weeks. She is way past the tea cup size. I guess Maggie would fit in the Mixing Bowl catagory.

LOL

[Cookie2]

I can understand breeders using the word Teacup to get more money , that is WRONG!!! But I can understand when people come up to me and start talking " OMG is he a teacup, he's so tiny!" I tell them it means the same thing. What they have to worry about is when you read a sales Ad that says "We Have Teacups!" A tiny and teacup mean the same thing to me. I dont think Cookie is tiny but he is when I see him in front of a cat and he looks like a mouse! Mimi is probably going to be around the same size.
A 4 week old that weighs 14 ounces is not that small believe it or not. When we got Mimi she was 8+ weeks old ,we weighed her at the vet and she was 14 oz. She stayed around 1lb - 1lb and 5oz for a while. She will be 6 months old the end of this month and she weighs at least 2 lbs now!
What I hate is when they come up to me and ask me " How much did your teacup cost you?" and they whisper it . I tell them how different breeders or petshops have a wide range of prices. And some of the dangers of buying a pet from a petshop .They can get a Yorkie for $700 and they could get one for $5,000 .If they see the word teacup used in ads its just to get more money.

Genie

Genie

[Laura]

OK, I got the scoop here - the AKC recognizes yorkies to be below 7 pounds. They have a breeder referal section where they give the parent club of Yorkshire Terriers as http://www.ytca.org/faq.html#A Actually, I moved on to breeder referrals, you might have to do the "I Agree" thing first, but it tells about Teacup yorkies.

[txshopper73]

So now, there's no such thing as a baby doll face?

"The YTCA’s Code of Ethics precludes the use of the words “teacup”, “tiny specialists”, doll faced, or similar terminology by its members, and for good reason."

All these terms are used by the public. Yes, if someone asks for a teacup then it is your right and duty to educate them on it. However, you will not change what people think. People are still going to call them that no matter how well you educate them.

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Before you start jumping down my throat, yes, I know there is no such thing as a teacup yorkie...just needed to catch your attention. This leads to more questions that I have:

1) What do you call a yorkie that is under 3 lbs full grown?

2) For those of you that have bred and ended up with a very small yorkie, do you still sell those with limited registration, or did you end up just keeping it?

I just wanted to know because I have a very small female that still weighs only 14 ounces at 4+ weeks. Even the runt of my litter has by-passed her in size. I am currently planning on keeping her because she is so small. I know that as an owner, people are quick to jump on people that call small yorkies teacups. But this is a term that has been coined by the public. If the public goes by this phrase then why not just go with the flow?

No, I'm not trying to make enemies here, just curious.

I realize now after reading what I originally posted, it looks like I was saying that my tiny was going to be under 3 lbs. My mistake. I know that she will be at least 3 lbs even to 3 1/2 lbs. I never thought she would be under 3 lbs so that was my mistake in wording.

[topknot]

I agree - boy got a lot of discussion on this topic. Of course there is no such thing as a teacup in yorkies - are they poodles? no. So no teacups. You said she was about 4 weeks old? You still can't tell yet. I have had very small or tiny puppies, but catch up in their 6th week or more. Rule of thumb is double their weight at 12 weeks. But remember this is not a guarantee - just something we go by and it has helped me. If she does stay small/tiny/teacup? If you sell her - sell her only at an older age - maybe 5 months and sell with a written contract to spay and with limited registration - can't win any points on this one at shows because of her size. I had a beautiful small female 4 pounds I was trying to show from Jacolyn=Kibets line. Wow, she was something else and loved to be shown. Well, at one show - she didn't even place and should have got 1st, so I asked the judge nicely later on and she said to me that she would rather the points go to a bitch that could produce a litter later. She didn't want to waste the points. I agreed after thinking about it - she was right. A limited registration - just means they cannot show or breed her.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Laura

OK, I got the scoop here - the AKC recognizes yorkies to be below 7 pounds. They have a breeder referal section where they give the parent club of Yorkshire Terriers as http://www.ytca.org/faq.html#A Actually, I moved on to breeder referrals, you might have to do the "I Agree" thing first, but it tells about Teacup yorkies.

The devil's advocate point of view......

I definitely disagree with a great deal of what is written on these subjects by the YTCA. I have emailed them asking for any scientific studies upon which they are basing their assertion that chocolate or parti-color yorkies sre more prone than standard color yorkies to genetic and other health issues. I do not think they exist and I do not believe there is any legitimate evidence of this.

It is important to note that the YTCA is an organization of breeders and showers and so you have realize that their articles are going to be slanted and prejudiced toward the breed standard. I find them to be extremely closed minded and ridiculous in a lot of areas, like historically only allowing a parti or chocolate yorkie to be registered as black and tan even though they are not. It made it difficult for breeders to keep track of yorkies with the recessive color genes and messed up the pedigrees which is why a lot of breeders quit registering with AKC or did AKC and an alternate registry that recognized the yorkie's true color.

Take Biewers for instance, the AKC and the YTCA do not recognize them as a breed. I think this is short sighted. They are beautiful and are the most sought after type of yorkie today.

I just want to make people think because the YTCA only controls those who show and breed to show, period. Their rules and regulations may be the bible for those people but not for the thousands of pet owners who don't show or breed to show, as well as the breeders who are breeding for pets and companions and not for show dogs.

Just some food for thought.

[jwash]

OK, tons of notes but I have to ask another question. I am new here so is there a breeder in the SE area that I can really have confidence in to sell me a tiny/teacup yorkie or one that will be around 3lbs or less full grown? When I bought mine, it was not an issue of money (not that I am rich) or that I wanted to have a pet that would fit in a teacup, or that I want to breed them, (no way, just love the pets). I just want a yorkie I can bathe easily, take with me almost anywhere and love. I refuse to fly one to me or go to a pet store, so what to do? Any help is appreciated.

[Brittie123]

There's no problem in wanting a smaller yorkie if you know the risks and know the extra care and attention they require. I think so many people think they are just smaller and are "purse dogs" but they dont realize that they are like caring for a premie infant for their entire lives. If you know the problems that can come from having tinies and you still want one, the best thing to do in my opinion is search for a breeder who strives for the standard, let them know you want a smaller puppy, and they will let you know when they have smaller pups in one of their litter. I got Emmy from a show breeder who is a member of the YTCA, she's a very reponsible ethical breeder who strives for the standard, and Emmy just happened to pop out of a litter with otherwise standard-sized pups. Breeders who always have tinies are not a good option in my opinion because they obviously are breeding purposely for tinies and you will see more health problems in that case. It may take a while to find a healthy small pup, but if you talk to some reputable breeders and even get on a waiting list or two the right one will come your way!

As far as the YTCA goes, I think its really important for breeders to have a code of ethics to abide by. Otherwise you would not be able to tell a good breeder from a bad breeder. In my opinion a breeder is either breeding for the love of the breed or for money. YTCA standards are geered towards the betterment of the breed, so any breeder who doesn't abide by those standards obviously has different intentions! $$$$$$$$$

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Brittie123

In my opinion a breeder is either breeding for the love of the breed or for money. YTCA standards are geered towards the betterment of the breed, so any breeder who doesn't abide by those standards obviously has different intentions! $$$$$$$$$

While I do agree, Brittany, that ethics are a necessary thing, I do not think you need to be a member of YTCA to have them.

IMO, 90% of breeders breed for the love of the breed AND for money. They are not doing it for purely altruistic reasons and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is a business after all. They deserve to make way more money than they do for the time, energy, effort and stress they have.

Some people have different standards and ethics than others and who are we to say they are wrong because they do not agree with the one's set forth by the YTCA? Anyone on here who owns a chocolate or a parti collor or a biewer would have concerns about the YTCA's rules and code of ethics. How can we call those people unthical or say that their only motivation is money?

I think it is healthy to continue to question and challenge the "rules" which are unjust or do not apply or are not founded in good scientific fact. This is how the Biewer came to be. The Biewers, a yorkie show breeder in Germany, challenged the "rules" and bred "for the tri-color" instead of killing the puppies because they were rumored to be "less healthy". Similarly, we have breeders here in the US who breed for the chocolate and the Parti-color. They do this, not just for the money, but for the love of the breed and the beauty of these colorful yorkies. They also believe that "culling" them at birth is inhumane and that the "strict" AKC and YTCA rules are in place to protect the established breeders and keep new breeders out.

I think that making a broad statement that ALL breeders either breed for the love of the breed or for money is a generalization that fails to take into consideration the many many breeders out there who are totally ethical and reputable and care about their dogs but who do not care about showing. They care about the temperament of the breed and want to produce healthy, even tempered puppies who will make wonderful companions to their owners.

[Brittie123]

Biewer's have their own assocition of breeders so I'm not sure why you keep saying biewer owners/breeders have problems with the YTCA. In fact the standards for the YTCA are very similar to that of the BCOA, (http://www.biewercoa.org/welcome.html) so I highly doubt:

Anyone on here who owns a chocolate or a parti collor or a biewer would have concerns about the YTCA's rules and code of ethics.

In fact every person I know who owns a Biewer holds the YTCA ethics in very high regard.

The red and chocolate yorkies are affected by the bb genetic makeup, while the Yorkshire Terrier should only be carrying the dominant BB genes. While the health problems often associated with blueborn pups are usually not seen in these puppies, most of the situations where the genetic abnormality occurs are with BYB's that are not likely to share the problems with show breeders. This is a recessive trait that should not be repeated, yet another reason breeders should follow the YTCA's code of ethics. People who fall for the hype that these are "rare" yorkies are being deceived. Saying that chocolate yorkie owners would have problems with the YTCA code is like saying owners of a blind yorkie would have problems with a yorkie standard that says yorkie should have good vision! Just because the abnormalities occur doesn't mean breeders should stop trying to strive for them NOT to occur. Thats all I'm saying!

[Laura]

Kim - I am not sure if I agree with you or not, I am not quite sure of your stand. I was actually giving the YTCA site to show their view of the term t-cup. I personally do not think everything in the world has to be under complete control. Nothing is all bad or all good. We must each choose where we want to make a stand. As I said somewhere else, my son is 17 - he asked me not to buy Iams and we looked through the website showing the cruelty. He is also going against the state of tx school board of education to stop the silliness of the TAKS test (our current standard). Things can be changed in this world - new puppy colors can be brought into the standard - they add them.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Laura~

I think I would like your son if we met. I always have some "cause" I am battling! Sounds like he has several. I think he takes after you a little. Tell him good luck.

I really enjoy your posts. I always learn something and I can tell you are open minded and love to learn. You are quick to take things in and you aren't afraid to express an opposing point of view. I also appreciate that you back your opinions up with factual citations from good sources ....like the YTCA.

I was simply pointing out to people who may not be aware of it, that the YTCA or the AKC is not "yorkie law". These private organizations really only exists to govern the way show people and show breeders operate. They are not controlling for the typical pet breeder or pet owner who usually cares more absolute temperament than conformation.

I know that change can be made and I hope I am planting some "seeds" for change with some of my posts here. If people really think and open their minds, great things can happen. It has been over 20 years since the Biewers were started and they are not recognized as a breed by the AKC and those in know say they never will be.

I wish the AKC would follow the lead of so many other countries and outlaw tail docking, but so far, it is not close to happening.

Brittany~

It is not possible to fully eliminate the Bb gene from all yorkies in the world. There are too many because of the mere fact that yorkies were developed by mixing all different types and colors of terrriers as well as the maltese (there is controversy about the maltese component) and the breed is less than 200 years old.

Show breeders do not stop breeding the sires and dams that produce the bb. In the past they simply destroyed the "evidence" so to speak, but today they sell the "off color" yorkies as pets. And, yes, by definition, they are "rare" and so they can sometimes go for more money because of their unique color. I do not know why this offends people so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that in a free market place.

Some people care about the breed standard to the point of ridiculousness IMO, and some don't care about it to the other extreme. I think there is a happy medium where you can take some of the characteristics that make sense, like a happy, lively gait, or have a purpose, like the bright, inquisitive eys, and strive for those, but not worry about the nonconsequential ones, like color.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

For those interested in reading and learning more about what Brittany was referring to I found this article on the internet:


BASIC GENETICS

To understand the fundamentals of breeding of dogs and the transmission of inherited characteristics it is important to have a basic knowledge of the science of genetics. Inherited characteristics include quite superficial factors, which are easy to see, such as coat colour, but they also include basic conformation factors, such as bone structure and musculature, and defects such as hereditary diseases. Note also that environmental effects may influence some factors, for example the musculature of a dog will be predetermined by its genes but nutrition and exercise will have significant roles in determining the result.

The inheritance of characteristics may range from simple to extremely complicated. The old adage "Like begets like" is a generalisation that cannot be relied upon. Various inherited factors, good and bad, may be carried in a hidden state in a dog and only revealed in its descendants. Inbreeding (including line-breeding) has been used to concentrate desirable genes, but beware as it also tends to concentrate undesirable genes

The Genetic Material

The body of each animal is composed of cells that are so small that to be seen they must be viewed under a microscope. Each cell has a central nucleus that contains the genetic material inherited from its parents, the chromosomes, which are made of long strands of protein in coils (DNA). The chromosomes are in pairs and one of each pair is inherited from each parent. The dog has 39 pairs of chromosomes, with 39 single chromosomes coming from each parent via the sperm and the ovum to regain the 39 pairs in the resulting offspring. A gene is a particular section of a chromosome at a certain location (locus) on the chromosome and it has a specific role in determining the development of a certain feature of that animal. Different forms of the one gene are called alleles, and may produce different appearances, conditions or behaviour in the animals inheriting them. The total complement of the particular forms of genes that an animal has is termed its genotype. Some genes will be masked or modified by others with the result that the appearance of the dog, its phenotype, does not indicate its full genetic make-up.

Dominant/Recessive Mode of Inheritance

To illustrate a frequently-seen mode in which inherited characteristics are passed on from parents to their offspring it is useful to take the relatively simple example of the transmission of coat colour in Labrador Retrievers, firstly looking at the inheritance of the basic pigment colours black and the rarer chocolate, and then how yellow is obtained.

Each Labrador dog and bitch has two genes relating to the black/chocolate colour series, one inherited from each parent. These genes are situated at a specific locus on each of a particular chromosome pair. There are two different alleles, one for black pigment and one for chocolate pigment, and, depending on the specific combination, producing black or chocolate coat colour. Black is said to be dominant over chocolate because only one allele for black needs to be present for the animal to be black. For an animal to have a chocolate coat then there must be no gene for black, i.e. both alleles must be for chocolate. Chocolate is said to be recessive to the dominant black. If the dominant allele for black is represented by "B" and the recessive allele for chocolate by "b", then in a Labrador there are three possible genetic combinations:

Possible……………………Phenotype
Genotypes………………….Appearance)

BB………………………….Black
Bb…………………………..Black
bb…………………………..Chocolate.

Where the black allele is present, i.e. BB or Bb, then the animal will be black. Where both alleles are chocolate, i.e. bb, then the animal will be chocolate. Note that while Bb is black in appearance because of the presence of a dominant B, it will pass on either B or b to each offspring depending on chance alone. An animal with the genotype Bb is known as a carrier - one that carries a hidden allele but is able to pass it on to its progeny. This is also termed the heterozygous condition (Bb), whereas if both genes are the same (BB or bb) the term used is homozygous. If two black-coated carriers (genotype Bb) are mated, each parent is able to pass on either B or b to each offspring. To determine the potential progeny genotypes it is useful to develop a table of the possible combinations of ova (eggs) and sperm as follows:

Possible Offspring Genotypes from a Bb x Bb Mating



Ova

Sperm
B
B
b

BB
Bb

b
Bb
bb


It can be seen from this table that the expected ratios of genotypes and phenotypes in the progeny are: -

Genotypes: 1 BB : 2 Bb : 1bb
Phenotypes: 3 black : 1 chocolate

So, if the two black carriers were mated, then according to probability any one offspring would have a 75% chance of being black and a 25% chance of being chocolate. Approximately 75% of the litter would be expected to have the chocolate allele. Also note carefully that a chocolate animal must have received a chocolate allele from each parent. Within any litter these expected ratios may not result, just as the result of tossing a coin 10 times may not result in 5 heads and 5 tails.

Yellow is a common coat colour in Labradors. This colour is produced by the action of a different pair of genes, the Extension or E series, which governs extension of the pigment into the hairs of the coat. For coat colour to be black or chocolate, a dominant allele for extension, represented as E, must be present in the genotype. The recessive e if present in duplicate produces yellow coat, regardless of the black or chocolate genes for pigment, however the skin colour of the nose and lips will indicate the pigment status. This mode of inheritance is said to be epistatic, where one pair of genes over-rides another pair. Try working out the expected progeny phenotype ratio for the mating of two black parents with the same heterozygous genotype BbEe (answer at the end of the chapter). The potential genotypes and phenotypes resulting from the mating are: -

Phenotypes……………………Genotypes
Black ………………………….BBEE, BBEe, BbEE, BbEe
Chocolate………………………bbEE, bbEe
Yellow with black nose………..BBee, Bbee
Yellow with chocolate nose……bbee

This exercise is a good example of the variation in potential phenotypes and genotypes in a litter when considering just two pairs of genes. In addition to the basic coat colours above, there are many variations in pigment particle size and shape which produce different shades of colour in chocolates and yellows, and there may be patterns of light and dark over the body, more obvious in the yellows. These are due to modifier genes. Environmental factors such as nutrition and sunlight may produce further minor variations in colour within the three basic coat colours. This illustrates the point that inheritance of what may appear to be a single factor may in fact be the result of the interaction of many genes and environment.

Other Modes of Inheritance

There are various modes of inheritance other than the above, and the more frequently encountered are:

(a) X-linked

Sex is determined via a pair of chromosomes called the sex chromosomes. All other chromosomes are known as autosomes, and each one of an autosomal pair has the same complement of genes. The sex chromosomes are of two different types known as X, the female chromosome, and Y, the male chromosome. The Y chromosome is much smaller than the X and contains little genetic material. A male has one Y and one X, whereas a female has two X chromosomes.

Sex of an offspring is determined by the sire passing on either an X or a Y chromosome: the dam passes on either one of her X chromosomes to each offspring. As well as the obvious sex characteristics inherited via the sex chromosomes there are other factors inherited on the X chromosome, including certain hereditary diseases, and these are said to be sex-linked or more correctly X-linked.

(b) Incomplete Dominant

This is where the inheritance often appears due to a single dominant allele passed on from one parent, but sometimes not. This is usually due to incomplete knowledge of the precise mode of inheritance.

(c) Polygenic

This is where a number of different genes are involved in inheritance of a particular characteristic. The classic example is canine hip dysplasia.

Genetic Testing and DNA

One of the exciting scientific breakthroughs of more recent times is in the field of molecular biology, where tests have been developed to find the locus of specific genes and identification of their various alleles. For example, related to the above, there are tests for colour genotype in Labradors. This enables a breeder to determine the genetic status of a Labrador for colour and the expected colour ratio from a particular mating. In some instances it may be important enough for a breeder to pay for such genetic testing to know whether a black dog is a carrier of chocolate or yellow, or a yellow dog is a carrier of chocolate. Of far greater significance is the use of genetic testing in determining hereditary disease status.

Answer to the puzzle The phenotype ratio is :

9 black : 3 Chocolate : 3 yellow with black nose : 1 yellow with chocolate nose