Helping those that want to breed
 

I have been a member of yorkie forums ever since january 2004 and I have always noticed this one little thing that bothers me every where I go..the fact that talking about breeding always seems to upset or anger alot of members.The reason of this thread is just to explain a few things about those of us that would like to breed and why,in order to make posting about this for others alot easier.Firstly,when we get our yorkies and realise what a great breed it is,Im sure that alot of us find the thought of having more than one appealing..infact most of us end up with two or even more;) Then there are those of us who feel so pasionate about the breed that we want to be part of the whole breeding world (in most cases as a HOBBY),this should be a good thing;)
When I got Lady I knew that one day I would want more,then we got Jess and my decidion was made,I wanted to breed and no body was going to make me change my mind.So I began to do my homework and of course ask questions online to get other peoples opinions and advice...this is where my complaint is.
When someone comes online to ask about breeding,this person is already 95% certain that he or she wants to breed their pet,all they want is awnsers to their questions and of course advice...what they dont want is to be awnserd with questions like "Why dont you leave it to the profesionals?" or "why would you do that to you female?" or "why have you not spayed her?" or "do you know that you are iresponsable?",not to mention all the negative info that people enjoy posting to put them off..etc etc.In my opinion every breeder started somewhere,even though most of them DO make it sound as if they were born 50years old with 25 years of breeding experience behind them,so we should give these new people a chance and instead of making them leave a forum and breed anyway or stay but keep the breeding questions to them selfs..we should help,advise and inform them,not scare them half to death by horror stories and 100% negative feedbacks.Breeding isnt something that only certain special beings can do..with the right advice,guidance and help we are all capable of "helping" our yorkies through a process that they have been doing for years.Having a healthy,good sized yorkie is enough because most of us are going to breed as a hobby and NOT as a full time job,we dont want to breed show quality or take the place of profesionals,we just want to breed yorkies..nothing more,nothing less.So its also not very nice to have to go back to a post where you have asked for some info and find that in order to breed you have to have a 7lb yorkie (previously tested) with steel blue/tan coat,3inch snout,small ears,short body,7 inch legs,pure silk coat etc etc (this is an example of what all this sounds like)...We are going to breed our yorkies with yorkies,not with a six legged monsters;) I feel sorry for those members that are seeking advice and come face to face with all of the above because these people LOVE their yorkies which is why they are inspired to breed them in the first place. I could go on and on about this all day but all I want to say is that nobody should be judged for not spaying their yorkie,for wanting to breed or even not spaying just because,as yorkie owners they are in their right to do what ever they please with their own pet and will do so with or without online help,so we could at least be helpful. Not all is totally negative in breeding,its not all c-sections,death,tube feeding,breech etc etc..we should point out the good sides too,after all,its not all bad when its still being done:) All Im asking is that those who have already made the decision can come online and be helped,not judged.Thats what a forum is for and even more so if the forum has a few breeders of its own that can help and guide others.Wanting to breed and asking for help is NOT iresponsable,if we were iresponsable we wouldent want any info,we´d just go ahead and do it and let nature take its course,so asking and wanting information/advice is already a sign that this person wants to learn,its a sign of RESPONSABILTY. Now Im sure Iv missed out alot of what I wanted to say..If I have I will be back to explain. I sure hope that after this "breeding" wont be a huge taboo and something that everyone (exept breeders) should keep quiet about:rolleyes:

Thank you for your post . It is very interesting . When Sandrine had her first litter of pups , I admit , I was scared by reading posts about birthing but thanks God , everything went well . Fom time to time , I have been very frustrated to read posts about helping .

Thanks for saying this! I too am interested in breeding, but am a little afraid to ask questions because I am afraid that I am going to be questioned on my intentions. Believe me I LOVE my dogs & the breed and want nothing but the best for both. Also, I think the type of people that come to this site & ask questions are not the same people that are breeding with bad intentions. Thanks for putting this out there!

I totally agree with your post. I have often had the impression that breeding is a forbidden subject on this forum. I have no intention of breeding and am actually having my Diesel neutered next month, but I feel for those of you who come here for information and get nothing but criticism. I have never spoken up on the subject because I feel like it wasn't my place because I have no interest in breeding and would be fighting someone elses fight; however I would like to remind everyone on this forum that does breed that you all had to start somewhere whether it was an accident or a planned and your knowledge should be used to educate others and not for judgement. I have learned a lot of information on this forum about breeding, from reading different posts, but always feel bad for the person asking the questions because they end up with little information and answers to their questions and many critical remarks. I also feel like those of us who have never bred should not have negative remarks about someones interest in breeding. How can you offer advice about something that you have never experienced. We can all read books and learn about a subject but I feel personal experience is the best teacher, and believe we should all be willing to share our knowledge with each other. :)

WAR EAGLE!!!!!

:) Reagan :)

Im so glad that you all feel this way too:) I was just getting a little tired of people being judged for wanting to breed,for not neutering or not spaying and just wanted to speak up for them all.I KNOW what its like to be judged because of this because ever since I decided to breed Jess I have been judged a few times my self.I just wanted those who judge these people to know that we all LOVE our girls and boys too and wanting to breed doenst mean that we are iresponsable..we want to learn which is why we come into forums:) I just think we should help each other if we possibly can and leave out the judging;) After all,I think it feels alot better to know that you have helped someone that to think that you have frightened them away:D

I find this post very interesting to read . I am new at the Yorkie world and interested to learn .

Well said, Gina. I had Tatum spayed when I realized she wasn't going to be big enough to safely breed (according to the pros on this board) so I haven't learned much about the breeding process. I have been a bit disappointed to see some of the responses that people new to breeding have gotten. I agree that you should do a lot of research and find a mentor before jumping into something like breeding but it takes guts it seems to come here and ask for help. There are quite a few knowledgeable breeders on here and I hope they continue to share their vast knowledge and experience without scaring anyone away.

Thankyou Gina.
I found these chat sites because of wanting imformation on breeding...and then realized thats not something you want to let people know about so I just read other brave people's questions. This is not something I decided I wanted to do overnight I've been interested since before I bought my first yorkie in 1991 and have been reading about it for 15 years. I'm able to stay home with my babies now and I'm hoping its all going to become a reality.

I want to thank the experienced breeders who patiently answer the questions. You have so much wisdom to share and I just "soak" it up. :)

I agree somewhat with what you say Chelsie. I will first say that I'm not a breeder and probably will never be, its too much work for me. And also that I have never directly commented to someone wanting help(or even in one of their threads). I think that as a yorkie forum we are here to give advice on everything. But at the same time as a yorkie forum everyone here loves yorkies, and most animals in general. People get upset (and rightfully so) whenever they here about an animal not being treated right by their standards. I think that everyone here has the best intentions of the dogs in mind whenever they answer any post. I think they feel that when a person comes to ask a question on breeding that they should already know everything and obviously have not done their research or they would already know the answer. Which isn't true, I'm sure even experienced breeders ask questions every now and then. But at the same time going into breeding you really should expect this and if all of it turns you away then maybe you weren't cut out for breeding in the first place. You have to admit that there can be complications with breeding and people should know and expect this when they start because if they do have problems they will be ready and not surprised.
I know many people that should not start breeding who have or are going to breed just because they can(they have male and female or have access to them) and these are people who haven't kept an animal for longer than 6 months(people I know personally). I have even been asked several times if I'm going to breed by people that have male dogs (people I really don't know, just met) and this really does bother me, I guess because I have no intentions to breed her, but my dog is not some little tramp that I go around selling a quickie with. That's what they make me feel like when they ask me this. But at the same token my dog didn't come from a show quality breeder and I didn't do enough research on her beforehand (I'm sure some people would say). I got my pup from a family that had a male and female and breed once in a while, every year or two, because they could. They loved their dogs and the pups they had and I felt very comfortable getting my dog from them.
I understand that you don't have to be a show breeder or have done this for ever and ever to be a good breeder. And honestly if it weren't for breeders who aren't show quality I wouldn't have been able to afford my dog. But I understand the intentions of the people who are yelling(for lack of a better word right now), they just want whats best for the dogs.

Courtney,I understand you too,but when are we not treating a dog right by their standards? This is one of the comments that bothers me;) Show breeders try and stick to the standards,infact they try and get as acurate as possible,but not all of us expect or even want show pups;) Iv seen yorkies that dont meet the standard and they are just as cute as the rest..I just dont understand why a yorkie has to meet the standard EXACTLY for breeders to think its ok for us to breed them.
Also,you said that some people come online to ask questions that they should already know..well all I can say is "better late than never":) At least they are asking,does it matter how long it has taken them to ask? Maybe they have been wanting to ask for a while but have seen the reactions to posts on breeding and just couldent find the courage to do so;) This is what im getting at.If people knew that they were going to be helped and not judged,maybe they would ask before hand and not right in the middle of their dogs pregnancy.Subjects on breeding are VERY important,especially to those who have made the decision to do it,so when they find that they are not only being judged for breeding,but also for NOT asking certain questions earlier,then of course they will leave because they will feel as if no matter what they say,it will be wrong..if they ask,they are being iresponsable,and if they dont,the same.They wont leave because they arent ready,they will leave because the forum is not helping them at all;)

"Having a healthy,good sized yorkie is enough because most of us are going to breed as a hobby and NOT as a full time job,we dont want to breed show quality or take the place of profesionals,we just want to breed yorkies..nothing more,nothing less.So its also not very nice to have to go back to a post where you have asked for some info and find that in order to breed you have to have a 7lb yorkie (previously tested) with steel blue/tan coat,3inch snout,small ears,short body,7 inch legs,pure silk coat etc etc (this is an example of what all this sounds like)...We are going to breed our yorkies with yorkies,not with a six legged monsters "

One thing that you overlooked in a lot of the information that is written is that when we tell you that a yorkie over 7 pounds should not be bred, that is because at least you should try to create a puppy that looks like a yorkie and not a silky. These 2 breeds are very similar, seeing as the yorkie and the Australian were the 2 main breeds used to create the silky, but the silky is a larger dog than yorkies are SUPPOSED to be, if you want a yorkie, at least use the standard size to do your breeding instead of creating dogs that will end up in a shelter because no one wants them because they are too large. I know several hobby breeders that do not breed to produce show dogs, but because they do follow the guidelines in choosing the pair that they breed, they have produced dogs that could be shown. The idea is to make sure you are making yorkies, and not some larger dogs that will end up not wanted. How many people looking for puppies do you know that want a yorkie puppy that is going to grow up to be 10, 15 or even larger in pounds? I have not had any inquires asking for a puppy that will grow big. Most want one that looks like mine or smaller. If you want to breed to produce pets, I think that is wonderful, but you still need to adhere to the breed standard of what you are going to breed. If you don't like that, then you are right, you are going to be put done for breeding. No matter what breed you chose to breed. We have plenty of puppymills and backyard breeders out there putting out yorkies that are purebred, but they don't look anything like a yorkie.

Because the standard is what makes them a yorkie. If you don't at least try to stay within the standard eventually you will no longer have a yorkie, but something else, when in all honesty you started out wanting yorkies. Every breed has a standard, and that is what keeps them the breed they should be.

Who said anything about breeding a 10lb yorkie??;) This is what im trying to say,we arent stupid,we arent iresponsable and we dont want our pups to end up in shelters..infact,some of us that are starting out dont even have intentions of selling the pups (my case).I KNOW how big a yorkie should be and how big it shouldent,as I said before Iv been doing my homework for a year already.I didnt say we are going to breed 15lb yorkies and that we dont give a dam what comes out at the end as long as its a yorkie..what I meant was,we dont need show quality and shouldent be pressured into thinking that thats what we have to look for;)

PS:MM Yorkies,what is the exact standard to you?

One other thing you need to remember is, the only stupid question, is the one not asked. If you are going to be intimidated by some of the replies, you just have to put your flaming suit on and stand tall. You will always get replies you don't want to hear, but if you are willing to get through them, you will also get replies from those that understand where you are coming from. I was very much like what you are describing when I got my first yorkies and fell in love with the breed. I wanted to start showing yorkies, and it is just as hard to get into the show scene as it is to breed them. With determination and not letting the negative replies get me down, I finally got there. Eventually I even decided to breed for my own show line. You have to be able to stand up to the negative and learn even from them.

Good job! Thank you for posting. I hope everyone will feel more comfortable posting about this subject. You know I completely agree with you and I just wanted to show my support.

;) NO it's not a top secret mission that requires years and years of training.

Well said, Gina
 

I have only been a member for a couple of months- and I really enjoy this forum. It's so informative and funny- you guys crack me up!! :p I love reading everyone's stories and seeing everyone's pictures. There is soooo much great information on here being shared by some really great people!
I will admit that I have had questions that I am afraid to post for fear or "rubbing someone the wrong way". I usually just "lurk" and wait for someone else to ask a similar question and see what kind of response they get (kind of like this thread... :rolleyes: )

First I did not say that they ask questions they should already know. I said that they ask questions that the people responding think they should already know. I don't answer any of the direct breeding questions because I myself know nothing about it. I don't know what they should and shouldn't know. Hell I haven't even had a child of my own so I don't really even know much about human pregnancy. I agree with you its better late than never, but at the same time looking through a responsible breeders eyes if they should know something then I'm sure it can be pretty aggravating to find that they don't.
I think mmyorkies answered the question about breed standards.
Then their was the comment about not treating them right be thier standards. Really when I said that I was actually talking about abused animals not really related to breeding what so ever. I was saying that people here love these animals and when they think an animal is being abused then they are going to be upset. So of course if you are putting an animal at risk by not being well informed going into the breeding process they are also going to be upset. In their opinion maybe they feel that you aren't treating the dog right. I use you in the general form, not meaning you personally.
But you know the more I think about this topic the more I see some of thier points (although I would still never tell someone they shouldn't breed). Breeding should be a gift. You are really taking something else and saying you are going to do this for ME. Then again maybe having them spayed is saying you are going to do this for ME. But really breeding isn't a necessity as far as the dog is concerned. The least you could do is inform yourself with as much knowledge as you can, for the dogs' sake.

Ok..Here is the standard:

General Appearance
That of a long-haired toy terrier whose blue and tan coat is parted on the face and from the base of the skull to the end of the tail and hangs evenly and quite straight down each side of body. The body is neat, compact and well proportioned. The dog's high head carriage and confident manner should give the appearance of vigor and self-importance

Head
Small and rather flat on top, the skull not too prominent or round, the muzzle not too long, with the bite neither undershot nor overshot and teeth sound. Either scissors bite or level bite is acceptable. The nose is black. Eyes are medium in size and not too prominent; dark in color and sparkling with a sharp, intelligent expression. Eye rims are dark. Ears are small, V-shaped, carried erect and set not too far apart.

Body
Well proportioned and very compact. The back is rather short, the back line level, with height at shoulder the same as at the rump.
Legs and Feet
Forelegs should be straight, elbows neither in nor out. Hind legs straight when viewed from behind, but stifles are moderately bent when viewed from the sides. Feet are round with black toenails. Dewclaws, if any, are generally removed from the hind legs. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed.

Tail
Docked to a medium length and carried slightly higher than the level of the back.

Coat
Quality, texture and quantity of coat are of prime importance. Hair is glossy, fine and silky in texture. Coat on the body is moderately long and perfectly straight (not wavy). It may be trimmed to floor length to give ease of movement and a neater appearance, if desired. The fall on the head is long, tied with one bow in center of head or parted in the middle and tied with two bows. Hair on muzzle is very long. Hair should be trimmed short on tips of ears and may be trimmed on feet to give them a neat appearance.

Colors
Puppies are born black and tan and are normally darker in body color, showing an intermingling of black hair in the tan until they are matured. Color of hair on body and richness of tan on head and legs are of prime importance in adult dogs, to which the following color requirements apply:

Blue: Is a dark steel-blue, not a silver-blue and not mingled with fawn, bronzy or black hairs.

Tan: All tan hair is darker at the roots than in the middle, shading to still lighter tan at the tips. There should be no sooty or black hair intermingled with any of the tan.

Color on Body
The blue extends over the body from back of neck to root of tail. Hair on tail is a darker blue, especially at end of tail.

Headfall
A rich golden tan, deeper in color at sides of head, at ear roots and on the muzzle, with ears a deep rich tan. Tan color should not extend down on back of neck.

Chest and Legs
A bright, rich tan, not extending above the elbow on the forelegs nor above the stifle on the hind legs.

Weight
Must not exceed seven pounds.

_______________
All I can say is WOW! If this is what we are expected to acheive in every litter,then breeding isnt complicated,its impossible;) I know what you mean though Courtney;) Jess is 7lbs by the way..she is on the dot;)
Im not bothered about the negative posts,to be honest I have learned to think for my self and ask all these questions to my vet or the breeder that is helping me out..the reason of this thread was to help out those that DO feel intimidated by those negative posts and feel that they should keep quiet instead of asking:) Some people dont have mentors or a vet they can chat with so they chose a forum and expect to be helped...this is all I wanted to say:)
Its nice to be able to talk about this for once with no arguments or hard feelings:)

All breeders (even reputable ones) have to start somewhere. I know that I would like to breed in like 5 years - so I'm starting to do research now so that I have plenty of time to do it right. I think that for those of us who want to do it right (following the standards, etc) are still discouraged for being inexperienced. If we can't ask questions here on this forum - then where do we go to find advice from experienced breeders that we trust? I think that this is the safest place! The people here are great and knowledgable, and understanding - most of the time! I know that it is very hard to find a good breeder in my area & I know lots of good people that are looking for Yorkies. I would like to fill that need, and I would love to do it with the support of other Yorkie lovers from YT!

Something else I wanted to say...
I have noticed that when anyone mentions breeding that some of the breeders here will post about how much work it is, you risk losing your pet, how expensive it is...blah...blah...blah. It really makes you sound as though you are complaining and it is not an enjoyable thing that you do. I would really like to hear the other side of breeding. What are all of the wonderful things that come out of it? Obviously you wouldn't be breeding if it was something that brought you nothing but hardship.

First let me remind you that there are a lot of people that do want to breed their 10 pound yorkies, I have seen several say they do, because they don't realize that is way too large for a standard yorkie.

The standard is just what it reads at AKC, and I doubt that you will find a yorkie that meets it exactly, but it was the guidelines to follow to keep your puppies looking like yorkies. When I chose a pair to breed I try to select one that is under 7 pounds but at least 5 pounds, I want the parents to have the blue(silver) and gold/tan coats, I want to avoid the cotton coat type (much too hard to keep mat free) not even desireable for a pet, I want their body to be box shaped, they should be as tall at the top of their back as they are long, from the base of the neck to the base of their butt. This is what gives them the appearance that they are yorkies. The breeding pair should have good personalities and not be shy, terriers are usually arrogant, self assured little giants, that is what makes them so loveable. Eyes should be clear and sparkle, like they are just waiting for you to turn your back so they can get into something. This is my idea of the standard. I am sure I don't make it as cut & clear as the AKC, but this is what I look for.

I think that there are great breeders out there and I am in no way trying to discourage people from breeding. Honestly I'm not even a breeder my opinions should not discourage anyone. I think that if you try to educate yourself then you are doing great and I understand that you are still going to have questions. On the same token though you have to understand where they are coming from they just don't want to help people who aren't going to take care of their puppies. However I feel that if you truely believe that you are doing the best that you can (which you should be for the pups' sake) then you have to know that and own it. Know that you are a good breeder and not let what people are saying bother you in fact learn from it, like you chelsie have done(you have said that you will not discourage new breeders by putting them down). But again I say that if what these people are saying is turning you away from breeding maybe you aren't cut out for it. Think about it I don't know any of you from Adam. What do I really care what you think of me, and even further lets say you tell me not to breed then I do, how will you know I did. If you can't take it from people over a computer then what are you going to do when you go into you vet's office and he/she asks/says the same thing.

The reason that is said is because it is true, and a lot of pet owners really don't want to take the chance of losing their pet, and don't think about that before they think about breeding. It is a fact, and a good many bitches are lost in the process of carring on the line. On the other hand, when it goes well it is wonderful. It is great to watch the tiny little puppies that are born grow into the cute adorable puppies that we all get at 12 weeks. It is exciting to see them open their eyes, and to see them start to waddle, first backwards like a human baby does, then forward on wobbly legs. And to watch momma tend to them, clean them and cuddle them. Hearing the little mewing noises they make as they grow. Hearing them growl about something when they are 4 weeks and you can hardly hear that little growl. I posted pictures of my last little one that was just born. One pup, born a week early, by C-section. She did make it, but the pictures I posted from day one shows how incomplete she was in her developement to her 4 week picture with her eyes open. Last time I had a premie he did not survive and it was devistating to me, but I know the risks. You have to be prepared for the bad, which is why every one tells about it. It is easy when it all goes right, but with little toy dogs the risks are greater than with the larger dogs.

There are several ways to interpret the A.K.C. standard . It might be impossible to follow it to the rule . If someone have the " perfect Yorkie " , let me know .

The standard is only a pattern on what a Yorkie should be .

Thank you very much for sharing the good things. That really made me smile. But it does seem that there are scare tactics going on. Most anyone would know that the pregnancy and birth for any animal has many risks.

But there really are some that don't or don't think about it and I think that some people just want to make sure that when someone starts breeding they know that there may be problems, and if they know then they should just overlook those comments and undertand that those people were just trying to help. I wouldn't want to breed my Reagan knowing that she may die, and if I didn't know that and was about to start breeding and someone told me I would definately change my mind. Not saying anything if you do breed just saying that I couldn't.

I also want to say that I am jealous that you know so much and have so much experience. I hope to know as much some day. I realize you do not have to share your knowledge with others, you worked hard for it. But I guess it would be nice that when you do share that it isn't done in a way that feels like you are attacking. In the other thread about the mating problems, you posted without knowing anything about the person asking. She could have been a show breeder, mating her two show dogs for the first time or any other scenario. I know, I know, some people ARE just plain ignorant and want to throw two dogs together without knowing anything. Not everyone is like that and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Believe me, a show breeder would have had a lot of information from the people that he/she associates with in the show world. Even a first time show breeder has someone that she got her bitch from and would be helping her with her first breeding. One thing I had to get through in the show scene is that when you get your first show dogs, it is always co-owned and you can not breed without the breeders permission, and if you have a bitch, you probably will have to return the bitch to the original breeder for the first breeding. It is not easy to get a show dog, and even harder to get a bitch to show. Show people are real careful who they will sell their show quality dogs to, and it is very hard for a newcomer to get one.

Yt
 

Gina, Sweetie, I think the members here are angels. I was reading a few posts on Sophie's Isle of York...the same questions are met by a "Get the FXXX out of here"..I think people have mellowed and learned it is so much better to educate then tell people off...the Yorkie is the one who suffers from breeder ignorance, we must bite our tongues in some posts and help all we can.

The way I look at this post , I am extremely glad that my two babies have been spayed . If I have another one , it will be the same thing .