a question about genetics, I guess.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

The first 3 generations are so important. Of course, big Yorkies produce small and small produce big..but it is not a complete crap shoot. If you have a line of average size Yorkies..4 to 6 pounds..you should not get a huge variety of size..you might get a smaller pup quite often, but rarely a huge one in a consistant line.

"Type" is genetic..you can not breed two large head terriers and expect a short muzzle and small ears. I have not seen a terrier type pup come from two cute, refined heads. The pups may not be as refined as the parents, but they do not look like Silkies either.
If you put apples in the pie pan, blueberry pie ain't coming out of the oven...although some people sure get a better apple pie then others.

This is what I have learned ...that it doesn't "have to be" a crap shoot if the breeder has experience and knows his/her lines. A good breeder who has studied and knows the genetics of their dogs and has carefully selected complementry matings will be able to fairly accurately predict (with no guarantees) the basic traits of the puppies of the produce.

I also heard that the father's genes tend to be more dominant than the mother's....does anyone know if this is true? Do most puppies take on more of the father's traits than the mother's?

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

The first 3 generations are so important. Of course, big Yorkies produce small and small produce big..but it is not a complete crap shoot. If you have a line of average size Yorkies..4 to 6 pounds..you should not get a huge variety of size..you might get a smaller pup quite often, but rarely a huge one in a consistant line.

"Type" is genetic..you can not breed two large head terriers and expect a short muzzle and small ears. I have not seen a terrier type pup come from two cute, refined heads. The pups may not be as refined as the parents, but they do not look like Silkies either.
If you put apples in the pie pan, blueberry pie ain't coming out of the oven...although some people sure get a better apple pie then others.

LOL Pat...!!!! I love it - Coming from someone with 30 years experience - you sure have a GREAT WAY with making things simple and easy to understand....

I just LOVE my 2 little Apple Pies !

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

This is what I have learned ...that it doesn't "have to be" a crap shoot if the breeder has experience and knows his/her lines. A good breeder who has studied and knows the genetics of their dogs and has carefully selected complementry matings will be able to fairly accurately predict (with no guarantees) the basic traits of the puppies of the produce.

I also heard that the father's genes tend to be more dominant than the mother's....does anyone know if this is true? Do most puppies take on more of the father's traits than the mother's?

Very good point on knowing the lines.

From what I have learned the mother's genes take dominance on certain traits and the father's on others. Also, if it is an inherited disorder, it is MORE LIKELY (not always) that it came from the mother as most inherited disorders are mitochondrial diseases. I have a specific list of these somewhere...I will try to find it. Probably at home...

[sneri13]

Originally Posted by Francie

ZZzzzzzz....THUD! Francie struggles back into the computer chair...blinking at the screen...ponders why "Nice N Easy" wouldn't be a simpler choice...

Francie

I just remember the pea plants in school and it's all lost from there.

[wnalegria]

Originally Posted by JiggityJig

I’ve read that it really doesn’t matter so much what the mom or dad weigh....a three pound dog can have a puppy that grows to be 12 lbs, and vice versa. Right?

Is the same true of body shape, muzzle length, hair texture or color, etc? Say I’m looking at purchasing a “pet quality” puppy (which I am), and I see the mother--say her body is longer and thinner than I care for, or her hair is more silvered than I personally like–how much is this a factor in the kind of puppies she will produce?

Or is it as random as it is in humans? (Ie: kid can be the spitting image of mom or dad, or kid can be the spitting image of great great uncle so-n-so who know one even remembers anymore, or kid can be the perfect blend of both parents, or kid can look like the mailman. )

If you do not like the parnets of the puppy IMHO why would you want to purchase the offspring? I would hope that when you purchase a puppy you would like the parents. You are looking at what a lot of the puppies that your kid can have will look like. I would also encourage you not to buy a pet quality puppy to breed. I see a whole lot of the parents and grandparents when I look at the babies.

Color you can play with by who you breed the female with- but unless you know the lines it is a crap shoot on your part. You can still get the undesired color.

[shelbysmom]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

This is what I have learned ...that it doesn't "have to be" a crap shoot if the breeder has experience and knows his/her lines. A good breeder who has studied and knows the genetics of their dogs and has carefully selected complementry matings will be able to fairly accurately predict (with no guarantees) the basic traits of the puppies of the produce.

I also heard that the father's genes tend to be more dominant than the mother's....does anyone know if this is true? Do most puppies take on more of the father's traits than the mother's?

Yup. The breeders I saw were all very experienced and either trying to get the ideal standard or tweaking it a bit for their taste. The dogs (even from different lines) looked very similar. A breeder that is less experienced will probably have more variety for a while until they get the look they are after.

[wnalegria]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

This is what I have learned ...that it doesn't "have to be" a crap shoot if the breeder has experience and knows his/her lines. A good breeder who has studied and knows the genetics of their dogs and has carefully selected complementry matings will be able to fairly accurately predict (with no guarantees) the basic traits of the puppies of the produce.

I also heard that the father's genes tend to be more dominant than the mother's....does anyone know if this is true? Do most puppies take on more of the father's traits than the mother's?

Unless you know the lines of the dog's or any animal that you intend to breed it is a crap shoot. That is why when some first start breeding they are using animals of the quality that should not be bred. When you use a pet quality puppy that is not of breeding quality you are not going to improve the breed.
When you do a outcross you really have to know your lines- because anything can happen. That is why many breeders do some linebreding with a certain percetage being a outcross. You can know your lines and still come out with a- not going to breed those two again experience. Breeding is not a exact science as most of us are not able to manipulate which gene we want dominat. Down the road yes but not for the hobby breeder/dog fancier of today.

You can do some wonderful matches on paper and not have what you want turn out in the puppies. You may have a litter of two wonderful girls- but a small gene has become dominant and you have two tiny pets too small to show and IYO too small to breed.

IMHO it takes two parents to make a baby or a puppy with both parents providing 50%. The only thing that we give dad credit for is determination of the sex. Mom gets credit for the number of eggs available and fertile.

[Paisleypup]

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Kathy, Stacy, Carol Jean, and all of you. I just want to say thank you for all the information that you post here. I copy and paste many breeders posts and save the info to an e-mail that I send to myself and then store permanently in my folders so I can reread it again later.... You really do help many people like me that have many questions in the back of their minds , but don't get around to asking...
__________________

[JiggityJig]

Originally Posted by wnalegria

If you do not like the parnets of the puppy IMHO why would you want to purchase the offspring? I would hope that when you purchase a puppy you would like the parents. You are looking at what a lot of the puppies that your kid can have will look like. I would also encourage you not to buy a pet quality puppy to breed.

Oh no, *I* will not be breeding.

I know that hobbiest breeders can be controversial, but I really like this family. Their only goal is to produce standard size yorkies of good health and temperament, that will be good pets. She is VERY against breeding deliberately for the smaller sizes because of health issues, and wouldn’t dream of breeding her smaller females, though her stud is I believe about three pounds.

(This isn’t just “telling me what I want to hear”. She told me all this when I was just starting to do my research, and didn’t know about the whole “teacup” issue.)

I’ve been in her home, and ALL her dogs are raised as loved pets, and wonderfully socialized. They all appeared to be around the seven lb range or less, have had no congenital health problems, etc. She does, I know for a fact, have a lot of pleased repeat customers.

Breeding *is* something they just do to bring in some extra money, and because they enjoy it. But the health and happiness of their dogs come first–she doesn’t wear out her bitches just because they’re cash cows. Since I’ve been in contact with her for some period of time, I know that they don’t breed NEAR as many times as they could, given the demand.

I’ve not made a deposit, or any other kind of firm commitment to her at this time, so I haven’t asked her EVERY question. Other than the ways I’ve mentioned that her breeding program is very controlled (health and temperament were my first concerns, and questions), I don’t know all the ins and outs of her approach to the obvious cosmetic genetic issues that might be another’s first concern. I don’t even *know* if she breeds *every* one of her females at some time or other, so my original question here was more of a curious nature, in case that particular scenario *should* come up. And, just because I’m inquisitive about stuff!

As for bloodlines, her bitch that “started it all” is adorable in both looks and nature (though now retired), as is the little stud. I’m confident in the intelligence and ethics of this breeder on many levels, and that is as important to me as “what the puppy looks like”, or I would have purchased one already, from a faster and cheaper source. I’m definitely not jumping into anything, and won’t commit to a puppy if it doesn’t feel right.

Thanks for all the thoughts, knowledge, and advice!

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Good for you JiggetyJig!! Way to do your research and get it right!!

[wnalegria]

You have made our day when you do the research and put the time and effort into buying that puppy. This means that we have done our job made you and us think. When I want to buy another dog or breed- I have a set group that I talk to about my ambitions. It sure helps to have another set of eyes and ears to listen too and look at my pedigree goals. Do I always listen no- but most of the time. Have I been burned yep I have had my paws burned to a crisp- but go on tomorrow is another day. Hopefully I can pass on what I learned from those bad experiences to others. I do not want some one else to get hurt when I held information that could have prevented it.

[BamaFan121s]

OK, got home and found my info. I really wish I had kept up with everything better, but I'll give you what I've got. These are the major mitochondrial disorders prevelant in canines:

* Epilepsy (myoclonic)-NOT to include seizures resulting from injury/trama or due to an axiety (ie, a dog that has seizures during thunder storms) was studied in great detail by the AKC Canine Health Foundation
* Certain types of Dermititis
* Demodex-lack of specific T-cell production used as an antibody that causes certain forms of mange due to exposure of microscopic mites found on MOST dogs
* Deafness (Mitochondrial Encephalomyopathy)-not every possible cause of deafness, just one very prevelant type...this type IS more common in smaller breed dogs

Also, when I was actually looking into this last spring/summer, The University of Cambridge was conducting research to determine what nervous disorders in dogs could be attributed to this--they suspect this will account for a large number. They had determined it could be a contributing factor in heart failure due to a condition where the canine heart doesn't fully function properly when the dog is excited or partaking in strenuous activity/play. I think (if I can read my own dang writing!) that it is more prevelant in large breed dogs.
I did write a few sites down:
http://www.geocities.com/welshealth/...ng%20Inherited
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00323.htm
http://www.geocities.com/welshealth/.../CANINEEPI.htm (This one was released by AKC and the Canine Health Foundation.)
Also, when I was looking into it, I read (most) of a book written by Rommy Faversham, "Inbreeding to Superior Females." It was mainly about linebreeding, which I honestly was clueless to at the time, which is why I read it, but it went into alot of details about genetics as it relates here as well.

Hopefully this will make sense--it has been several hours since my other post!

[YorkieRose]

Thank you..these are problems passed to offspring by the female..very interesting.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Thank you..these are problems passed to offspring by the female..very interesting.

Yep. Short story of why: ok, ya know the 1 egg and 1 sperm thing to make a pup, obviously. Genes are carried in the DNA, in the nuclus of each cell. Genes are also present in and inherited in the DNA outside of the nucleus in the mitochondria...a separate set of DNA. Egg cells have mitochondria, sperm cells don't. Therefor, any disorder/trait/disease that results from the DNA in the mitochondria rather that the nucleus HAS to come from the female. (Same thing w/ humans and male-pattern baldness.)