Heat panties... Where to buy? And how heavy does heat usually get?

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by matese

I spayed my last 2 females for health reasons, my first two I did not and paid the price for it, one got mammary tumors AND prometra, she was 13 y/o when operated for prometra, for 9 days I watched her slowly die, I took her back to the vet that did the operation, all he gave me was a tube of what could have been nautical, so long ago I don't remember, bottom line she died. the other not spayed got prometra 6 months later,but then I had a diff. vet, a better vet, they operated she lived for 6 months, died from a heart attack, not related to prometra operation,she was 13 y/o also from these two I learned IF NOT GOING TO BREED--SPAY. I had no intention to breed, they were spayed before first heat about 6 mos. old. One died at age 13 y/o she was on heart meds. died from kidney failure, my 2nd spayed girl I had to put down this past Oct. at the age of 16 y/o she had cushings & pancreatitis. The cushings was under controll it was the pancreatitis she had to be put down for. So I know the pros & cons of spaying and not spaying. I advise to spay if not going to breed, I believe in spaying and neutering. But it is up to the pups owner to decide what they want to do. So many have gotten on this thread about someone wanting advise about heat panties, and you have taken it to another topic. Like I posted..YOU ARE BEATING A DEAD HORSE HERE. Just give it up, you have offered a wealth of knowledge on this thread about benefits of spaying. So please, just let it be, and let it be a THREAD for the heat panties. Thank you

So now I need to ask you this.....since you were not informed for your 2 girls that died that a simple spay would have prevented the health issues wouldn't you have been grateful to have been able to prevent their outcome?

I also like that you shared your experience so that the OPer will see that we are being very truthful in the possibilities of her future health.

[gemy]

The educated decision about spaying and neutering any pet has to weigh the health consequences to your pet. At present for the Yorkshire Terrier there are no known studies as far as I know that elaborate this.

There are how-ever many studies that elaborate the very serious health concerns of other breeds most especially large breeds. And many of those studies indicate that most especially spaying and neutering at a young age 6months is seriously detrimental to their health.

I only speak out so that those some folks that own both small/toy dogs and large breeds to understand that; what might just be okay for a wee dog, is not for your large breed dog.

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by matese

this thread was for Heat panties... Where to buy? And how heavy does heat usually get? not for spaying, if you had to throw spaying in, you all did, she gave her response. It's her choice, you all did what was best for pups, now the choice is hers. GIVE IT UP. There are other THREADS that can use your help, advise & suggestions, why don't you all move on to those gezzz.You're beating a DEAD HORSE here.

You've been here long enough to know that it's rare for a thread to stay completely on topic. I for one am glad that they don't. No single thread is for the sole use of the OP. I've learned more from threads that have "gone off the rails" so to speak thanks to the vast knowledge and passion of the many posters here than I have from any thread that only stuck to the initial post.

So, unless and until Ann or one of the other moderators tells all the posters to answer stop letting conversations, discussions, and yes, even arguments flow, I think it's best to not tell other posters how or what to reply.

Originally Posted by megansmomma

1. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that I see the words
matese
YT 1000 Club Member
and not anything that indicated you are a MODERATOR.

2. Since MODERATOR is not under my name either but Wylie's Mom, Ann, Moderator did post and offered her opinion as well on the subject I might assertion that we are all within the rules for our replies. She offered an opinion just like everyone else did.

3. There are plenty of other thread that you could post on as well. Might I suggest that you take your own advice. If you can dish it out you should also be able to follow it as well.


As for my original reply to the OPer. I hope that you take all of the comments into your future decisions and I wish you well. I have no idea where to purchase doggie panties since my girl was spayed at about this again. I hope that you are able to find something that will work.

Dang, I hate it when I miss a memo about a change of moderators. Maybe it's time for new glasses.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

SO very true. Given we kill 3M+ animals each year, it truly is a good reason on its own, unless you can be so perfectly diligent in guarding an unaltered animal...I personally am not sure I want that risk.

Unfortunately, it seems you see people who have insisted that they are that special kind of pet owner who can prevent things from happening, only to find out a year or so down the line that hormones and instinct trump intentions far too often. I saw a great blog post by a vet the other day talking about why she chose to spay/neuter her pets.

Spay Day, that Golden study everyone’s talking about, and why I still happily remove testicles. | Pawcurious: With Pet Lifestyle Expert and Veterinarian Dr. V.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by matese

this thread was for Heat panties... Where to buy? And how heavy does heat usually get? not for spaying, if you had to throw spaying in, you all did, she gave her response. It's her choice, you all did what was best for pups, now the choice is hers. GIVE IT UP. There are other THREADS that can use your help, advise & suggestions, why don't you all move on to those gezzz.You're beating a DEAD HORSE here.

Seriously? When did you become a moderator?

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by matese

I spayed my last 2 females for health reasons, my first two I did not and paid the price for it, one got mammary tumors AND prometra, she was 13 y/o when operated for prometra, for 9 days I watched her slowly die, I took her back to the vet that did the operation, all he gave me was a tube of what could have been nautical, so long ago I don't remember, bottom line she died. the other not spayed got prometra 6 months later,but then I had a diff. vet, a better vet, they operated she lived for 6 months, died from a heart attack, not related to prometra operation,she was 13 y/o also from these two I learned IF NOT GOING TO BREED--SPAY. I had no intention to breed, they were spayed before first heat about 6 mos. old. One died at age 13 y/o she was on heart meds. died from kidney failure, my 2nd spayed girl I had to put down this past Oct. at the age of 16 y/o she had cushings & pancreatitis. The cushings was under controll it was the pancreatitis she had to be put down for. So I know the pros & cons of spaying and not spaying. I advise to spay if not going to breed, I believe in spaying and neutering. But it is up to the pups owner to decide what they want to do. So many have gotten on this thread about someone wanting advise about heat panties, and you have taken it to another topic. Like I posted..YOU ARE BEATING A DEAD HORSE HERE. Just give it up, you have offered a wealth of knowledge on this thread about benefits of spaying. So please, just let it be, and let it be a THREAD for the heat panties. Thank you

This also turns threads in different directions and usually brings drama. Unless your a moderator it's not your job to tell people what they can and can not post.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by gemy

The educated decision about spaying and neutering any pet has to weigh the health consequences to your pet. At present for the Yorkshire Terrier there are no known studies as far as I know that elaborate this.

There are how-ever many studies that elaborate the very serious health concerns of other breeds most especially large breeds. And many of those studies indicate that most especially spaying and neutering at a young age 6months is seriously detrimental to their health.

I only speak out so that those some folks that own both small/toy dogs and large breeds to understand that; what might just be okay for a wee dog, is not for your large breed dog.

Exactly. There are no studies regarding the purported benefits of keeping intact toy dogs. The research is questionable at best regarding large dogs as well and my family has owned long living German shepherds as well who were spayed. It didn't stop them from living to just shy of 16 and 17 birthdays! The German shepherd I saw two weeks ago fighting for her life at age 12.5 due to lack of spaying wasn't nearly as lucky and most certainly won't live to 16 or 17 like ours did. The owner had tears in her eyes...I asked her why she didn't spay her....she was thinking of breeding her and never did....and she clearly was regretful. I had pity for her, and wished she had seen a thread like this 12.5 years earlier. Same for the young man with his 6 year old Yorkie a few years ago who busted into tears when he saw me pick up my dog from a neuter. He was fighting for her life, and she looked well beyond her 6 years after fighting mammary cancer.

[gemy]

I read that post, and even she admits from an individual standpoint, ie the owner and dog spaying and neutering is not in the best interests of your pet.


From the ARTICLE
But gonads are good! Don’t you deny it!

But WAIT! I know what you’re going to say. You are an educated, informed pet owner and you know all about the research showing that sex hormones do have health benefits and spaying and neutering may not always be 100% a positive thing. You’ve pored over the latest Golden Retriever neutering and cancer study (I did too. Putting 2 Goldens down in 6 months is not a fun thing.) And you ask:
Why must I be forced into this surgery for my pet? Why is no one admitting that testicles and ovaries have a purpose and are best left attached to the animal from whence they sprouted?
To this I say: I agree.
And to that I add: Will you at least concede, being an educated, informed pet owner, the sad truth that many, many people are not? And while I can say with utter sincerity that I believe you are not letting your pet run amuk impregnating the neighborhood, your less conscientious streetmates are?

So give the full truth, don't doctor it up as it is best for the health of your pet.
Tell the truth that you don't trust this person to keep safe their male or female from procreating and because it is your calling to try to eliminate pets in shelters you believe they should de-sex their dogs. Despite the health risk to the dogs, which btw you would not offer financial responsibility for.

The pet over population problem is a many factored problem. Many pets surrendered are from pet buyers who quite frankly were not ready or able to care for a pet.

Let the veterinary establishment teach and train vets to do tubal ligations and vasectomies to ensure non breeding... Hey what a concept keep the hormones intact and mayhap the health benefits??????

Let the veterinary establishment have brochures on early intervention if you think your female has been bred accidentally. Let the vet establishment have brochures to show what heat is, how long it lasts, how to protect your female. Let the vet establishment have as another alternative a birth control pill you could feed your female.

So many many options that could be explored and developed without risking the long term health of our dogs.

[BabieChloe]

I find it amusing that there are so many spay activists on this group who think that they know absolutely everything there is to know. News flash, you do not. You only know what you are conditioned to believe as facts. You spayed? Fabulous; great decison for YOU and YOUR pet. You are nobody to make decisions for someone else’s pet. Learn that and understand it, maybe you’ll get it one day. Also, in response to megansmomma about me being a new yorkietalk member, I apologize but I just do not have as much time as you to make 10,000 comments on a pet group so that I can be considered as vastly knowledgable as you about who posts what on here.

Also, yes, to all the other spay activists on here, I am clearly aware of the POSSIBILITY of mammary tumors and the POSSIBILITY of pyometra in an unspayed female. I am also aware of the studies that have been done at UC Davis last year about 5 consequences of neuter and spay which includes hip displasia, mast cell tumors, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and cranial cruciate ligament. All highly fatal and the result of your spaying and neutering. This is not the only study that has been done regarding the consequences and complications due to this procedure. Maybe some people should learn the names of these diseases more than just knowing the word pyometra and mammary tumor.

The study was done in golden retrievers but it is still very relevant to yorkshire terriers as well. PLOS ONE: Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers


Oh and about me needing to spay my baby at 6 months, why don’t you read this study about the complications that occur due to immature neuter and spay.
Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on ... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI

Since you basically are removing your pets hormones, that also plays a high role on their personality, as much as you would like to argue that it does not. Their normal bone development also does not occur as genetically intended because YOU decide for your pet that they do not need their hormones. There is a study to show increased aggression that was observed in a large population of unaltered vs altered dogs.

“Among the findings, neutered dogs were more aggressive, fearful, excitable, and less trainable than intact dogs. In addition, we measured eight individual bone lengths plus the height of 202 agility competition dogs to determine whether gonadectomy affected bone lengths. Preliminary analysis revealed significant differences in bone growth between the intact and neutered groups. These findings strongly support the need for an immediate re-evaluation of the current
recommendation to spay or neuter dogs to prevent or treat behavior problems, and an equally
pressing need to more fully examine the wide range of physical effects of spaying and neutering pet dogs.”

http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehavio...taSnapShot.pdf

What about bone cancer? You were not educated that there is an TWICE the risk for canine osteosarcoma with spay and neuter? No, because OH.. mammary cancer is the only thing dogs can get, right?
Maybe you should read this: Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. [Vet J. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI
And what about lymphoma.. female hormones protect female dogs against this cancer that can take over their whole body.. Didn’t know that either, did you? Hormonal and Sex Impact on the Epidemiology of Canine Lymphoma

On another note, you know those heart worm medications you give and frontline for fleas? ABSOLUTE POSION. I see frontline is very popular here for flea prevention, but did you ever really read the label?

“Keep out of the reach of children.

Children should not come in contact with the application site for 30 minutes after application.

Causes eye irritation. Harmful if swallowed. Do not get in eyes or on clothing. Avoid contact with skin. Wash hands thoroughly with soap and warm water after handling.

If contact with skin or clothing occurs, take off contaminated clothing. Wash skin immediately with plenty of soap and water.”

SO why then is it ok to put on your pet? Why is pure poison contained in heartgard allowed to be swallowed by them? Why.. because YOU feed them all this poison and your preventative bs which is actually POISONING them. Maybe that’s why they could be developing mammary tumors, did you ever think of that? Dogs evolved from wolves, I don’t see wolves getting a spay or swallowing heartgard. Invermectin is the key ingredient in heartgard, do you know or care what that does to your pet? Apparently not because you are only interested in protecting one thing while hurting another.

Educate your own selves before trying to educate someone else.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Exactly. There are no studies regarding the purported benefits of keeping intact toy dogs. The research is questionable at best regarding large dogs as well and my family has owned long living German shepherds as well who were spayed. It didn't stop them from living to just shy of 16 and 17 birthdays! The German shepherd I saw two weeks ago fighting for her life at age 12.5 due to lack of spaying wasn't nearly as lucky and most certainly won't live to 16 or 17 like ours did. The owner had tears in her eyes...I asked her why she didn't spay her....she was thinking of breeding her and never did....and she clearly was regretful. I had pity for her, and wished she had seen a thread like this 12.5 years earlier. Same for the young man with his 6 year old Yorkie a few years ago who busted into tears when he saw me pick up my dog from a neuter. He was fighting for her life, and she looked well beyond her 6 years after fighting mammary cancer.

Well I can also say my experience, and my breeder friends experience with intact dogs. Which is quite different to you and your friends. Magic Mom's at almost 12yrs old never spayed, is quite well and hardy. This breeds average life expectancy is 10yrs old. Zoey same breed died before 4yrs old of lymphona. The litter Magic came from, 2 dogs one male one female had early neutering(6mths old) and subsequently developed severe hip dysplasia, as well as other osteo conditions, they had to be put down. Two other of the litter where the neutering was delayed until 19-24 months old did develop HD but of a much milder presentation and as far as I am aware are still living happy and healthy lives.

Of our small group of breeder friends, no un-spayed female has developed either mammary cancer or pyrometra. One female un-spayed is now an august 14 yrs old.

But how is this multi research questionable at best? Under what criteria, please post that and attach the research articles you are questioning the validity of.

Thanks I always like to keep myself informed.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by gemy

I read that post, and even she admits from an individual standpoint, ie the owner and dog spaying and neutering is not in the best interests of your pet.


From the ARTICLE
But gonads are good! Don’t you deny it!

But WAIT! I know what you’re going to say. You are an educated, informed pet owner and you know all about the research showing that sex hormones do have health benefits and spaying and neutering may not always be 100% a positive thing. You’ve pored over the latest Golden Retriever neutering and cancer study (I did too. Putting 2 Goldens down in 6 months is not a fun thing.) And you ask:
Why must I be forced into this surgery for my pet? Why is no one admitting that testicles and ovaries have a purpose and are best left attached to the animal from whence they sprouted?
To this I say: I agree.
And to that I add: Will you at least concede, being an educated, informed pet owner, the sad truth that many, many people are not? And while I can say with utter sincerity that I believe you are not letting your pet run amuk impregnating the neighborhood, your less conscientious streetmates are?

So give the full truth, don't doctor it up as it is best for the health of your pet.
Tell the truth that you don't trust this person to keep safe their male or female from procreating and because it is your calling to try to eliminate pets in shelters you believe they should de-sex their dogs. Despite the health risk to the dogs, which btw you would not offer financial responsibility for.

The pet over population problem is a many factored problem. Many pets surrendered are from pet buyers who quite frankly were not ready or able to care for a pet.

Let the veterinary establishment teach and train vets to do tubal ligations and vasectomies to ensure non breeding... Hey what a concept keep the hormones intact and mayhap the health benefits??????

Let the veterinary establishment have brochures on early intervention if you think your female has been bred accidentally. Let the vet establishment have brochures to show what heat is, how long it lasts, how to protect your female. Let the vet establishment have as another alternative a birth control pill you could feed your female.

So many many options that could be explored and developed without risking the long term health of our dogs.

I think it's sad to think just because some one gets there dog fixed that there uneducated. Anyone who has been on this board for even just a year has seen how many people honestly can not be trusted with intact dogs how many "accidents" there are and how much more dangerous that is for the dog with an owner who knows nothing about breeding then to be spayed. Knowing all the side effects of birth control pills for humans I would feel much safer spaying my dog then giving her those. I hear more about infections and cancers dogs are getting from not being spayed then effects they are having from being spayed. I will never understand how someone who loves this breed and has seen all the "accidents" on this board could be so against spaying.

[BabieChloe]

Originally Posted by gemy

I read that post, and even she admits from an individual standpoint, ie the owner and dog spaying and neutering is not in the best interests of your pet.


From the ARTICLE
But gonads are good! Don’t you deny it!

But WAIT! I know what you’re going to say. You are an educated, informed pet owner and you know all about the research showing that sex hormones do have health benefits and spaying and neutering may not always be 100% a positive thing. You’ve pored over the latest Golden Retriever neutering and cancer study (I did too. Putting 2 Goldens down in 6 months is not a fun thing.) And you ask:
Why must I be forced into this surgery for my pet? Why is no one admitting that testicles and ovaries have a purpose and are best left attached to the animal from whence they sprouted?
To this I say: I agree.
And to that I add: Will you at least concede, being an educated, informed pet owner, the sad truth that many, many people are not? And while I can say with utter sincerity that I believe you are not letting your pet run amuk impregnating the neighborhood, your less conscientious streetmates are?

So give the full truth, don't doctor it up as it is best for the health of your pet.
Tell the truth that you don't trust this person to keep safe their male or female from procreating and because it is your calling to try to eliminate pets in shelters you believe they should de-sex their dogs. Despite the health risk to the dogs, which btw you would not offer financial responsibility for.

The pet over population problem is a many factored problem. Many pets surrendered are from pet buyers who quite frankly were not ready or able to care for a pet.

Let the veterinary establishment teach and train vets to do tubal ligations and vasectomies to ensure non breeding... Hey what a concept keep the hormones intact and mayhap the health benefits??????

Let the veterinary establishment have brochures on early intervention if you think your female has been bred accidentally. Let the vet establishment have brochures to show what heat is, how long it lasts, how to protect your female. Let the vet establishment have as another alternative a birth control pill you could feed your female.

So many many options that could be explored and developed without risking the long term health of our dogs.

Thank you gemy for posting INFORMED information here, unlike many others who choose to follow what their own imagination deems to be facts.

[BabieChloe]

Also, to all those making fun of matese for her comment.. you all say that you are entitled to posting whatever you please even if it is off topic. This also stays true for her. Making fun because she isn't a moderator? WHO CARES.

YOU aren't a doctor, how about that.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by BabieChloe

I find it amusing that there are so many spay activists on this group who think that they know absolutely everything there is to know. News flash, you do not. You only know what you are conditioned to believe as facts. You spayed? Fabulous; great decison for YOU and YOUR pet. You are nobody to make decisions for someone else’s pet. Learn that and understand it, maybe you’ll get it one day. Also, in response to megansmomma about me being a new yorkietalk member, I apologize but I just do not have as much time as you to make 10,000 comments on a pet group so that I can be considered as vastly knowledgable as you about who posts what on here.

Also, yes, to all the other spay activists on here, I am clearly aware of the POSSIBILITY of mammary tumors and the POSSIBILITY of pyometra in an unspayed female. I am also aware of the studies that have been done at UC Davis last year about 5 consequences of neuter and spay which includes hip displasia, mast cell tumors, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and cranial cruciate ligament. All highly fatal and the result of your spaying and neutering. This is not the only study that has been done regarding the consequences and complications due to this procedure. Maybe some people should learn the names of these diseases more than just knowing the word pyometra and mammary tumor.

The study was done in golden retrievers but it is still very relevant to yorkshire terriers as well. PLOS ONE: Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers


Oh and about me needing to spay my baby at 6 months, why don’t you read this study about the complications that occur due to immature neuter and spay.
Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on ... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI

Since you basically are removing your pets hormones, that also plays a high role on their personality, as much as you would like to argue that it does not. Their normal bone development also does not occur as genetically intended because YOU decide for your pet that they do not need their hormones. There is a study to show increased aggression that was observed in a large population of unaltered vs altered dogs.

“Among the findings, neutered dogs were more aggressive, fearful, excitable, and less trainable than intact dogs. In addition, we measured eight individual bone lengths plus the height of 202 agility competition dogs to determine whether gonadectomy affected bone lengths. Preliminary analysis revealed significant differences in bone growth between the intact and neutered groups. These findings strongly support the need for an immediate re-evaluation of the current
recommendation to spay or neuter dogs to prevent or treat behavior problems, and an equally
pressing need to more fully examine the wide range of physical effects of spaying and neutering pet dogs.”

http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehavio...taSnapShot.pdf

What about bone cancer? You were not educated that there is an TWICE the risk for canine osteosarcoma with spay and neuter? No, because OH.. mammary cancer is the only thing dogs can get, right?
Maybe you should read this: Host related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. [Vet J. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI
And what about lymphoma.. female hormones protect female dogs against this cancer that can take over their whole body.. Didn’t know that either, did you? Hormonal and Sex Impact on the Epidemiology of Canine Lymphoma

On another note, you know those heart worm medications you give and frontline for fleas? ABSOLUTE POSION. I see frontline is very popular here for flea prevention, but did you ever really read the label?

“Keep out of the reach of children.

Children should not come in contact with the application site for 30 minutes after application.

Causes eye irritation. Harmful if swallowed. Do not get in eyes or on clothing. Avoid contact with skin. Wash hands thoroughly with soap and warm water after handling.

If contact with skin or clothing occurs, take off contaminated clothing. Wash skin immediately with plenty of soap and water.”

SO why then is it ok to put on your pet? Why is pure poison contained in heartgard allowed to be swallowed by them? Why.. because YOU feed them all this poison and your preventative bs which is actually POISONING them. Maybe that’s why they could be developing mammary tumors, did you ever think of that? Dogs evolved from wolves, I don’t see wolves getting a spay or swallowing heartgard. Invermectin is the key ingredient in heartgard, do you know or care what that does to your pet? Apparently not because you are only interested in protecting one thing while hurting another.

Educate your own selves before trying to educate someone else.

Oh great another person who thinks heart worm prevention is bad even though it saves thousands of dogs lives a year.........what a joke. I can tell you one golden retrievers are a lot different then yorkies and not only because there a larger breed dog but because they also have sensitivities that other dogs do not have and two yorkies don't even come close to being like wolves and do you have any idea how much a dog has evolved and changed sense being domesticated? For all your research against spaying I can come up with just as much for.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by BabieChloe

Also, to all those making fun of matese for her comment.. you all say that you are entitled to posting whatever you please even if it is off topic. This also stays true for her. Making fun because she isn't a moderator? WHO CARES.

YOU aren't a doctor, how about that.

You don't know what people are and are not. If she was a moderator that would be knowledge for all and easy to see so uhhhh how about that..... I can act like a child to

[Ellie May]

Animal Reproduction. American College of Theriogenologists

This summarizes my opinion on telling somebody that they absolutely should alter their animals. Thankfully osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma are not major concerns in Yorkies, so the decision is a bit easier.

Intact and altered animals do have different caloric needs. Just feed accordingly. And behavior/personality changes are absolutely possible because it is influenced by hormones.

I choose to spay for health reasons, but not automatically before the first heat. I choose to castrate for behavioral and safety reasons, but again not at four or five months just bc somebody says to.

My girl went into heat several times. It does not make much of a mess with the small breeds. Doggie diapers work if you don't want red dots all over your blankets.