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Love doesn't come with a money back guarantee. Either you love her and are willing to take care of her and give her a great life, or you don't. I am reading a lot of posts about what is best for you, but I think the only question is what is best for this baby. What say has she had?:(

I can see both sides of this debate. On the one hand, I absolutely believe that our pups are ours for life. No matter what. Just like I wouldn't send back my kids if there were health problems with them. My dogs are mine, for better or worse.

On the other hand, I know that there are situations where it's not always possible for an owner to keep and provide everything they need to keep their dogs healthy/comfortable due to their medical conditions. Even if they love that pup to pieces. Just look at Ladyjane's latest thread about Mindy in the sick/injured forum.

For others, the emotional toll of dealing with a special needs pup might be too much for them. We don't know what anyone else is capable of handling emotionally because we don't know what else is going on in their lives.

I hope what ever Amy decides, we at YT can not only respect it, but support her.

Well, some people are just not wealthy enough to spend a lot of money to get a new puppy that turns out to be seriously ill and should never have even been offered for sale, pay thousands upon thousands for it's medical care, sit by as it suffers and then still have to perhaps watch it die and allow the breeder to keep the money and skate on the disreputable action of producing and then passing on for sale dogs of very poor health and questionable quality. Like it or not, some are being priced out of owning a purebred dog if they have are going to have to both fund disreputable breeders' mistakes and still wind up without a puppy in a few months and to try to buy a second and start all over.

If one does deal with a breeder who offers a puppy that quickly or immediately becomes ill or proves to be one that should never have been sold, people should be allowed to call them on it and get their money back if they cannot afford to keep and pay for all the medical care and the dog's eventual final expenses within a few weeks. It is their personal choice and is often necessarily based on financial concerns for those who are not financially the most comfortable.

Which is why all the disreputable overbreeding that is going on, producing sickly and ill puppies, usually advertised on websites that promise all kinds of pie-in-the sky claims and dogs that never should have even been created at all let alone offered for sale, is so painful. It can often prey on those who can least afford to deal with all the financial and emotional hit - those who are perhaps new to the dog or pet world, not savvy enough to even know to do "research" and "educate" themselves, are not well off financially but still want and perhaps even need a canine companion to enrich their lives and provide someone to just love and come home to at the end of the day. Some people psychologically need a dog to help them through their day and that dog is all they have got to hang onto. Some have no other family, no support system and not a great deal of money. Some are totally on their own and sadly, finances mean more than some can ever know. Yet they still want a dog they have perhaps always dreamed about. They should be allowed to dream and find the dog they would so love to have if possible.

People caught in this situation matter, too, and some are not financially well off enough to have to pay for irreputable breeders' poor choices plus suffer the psychological pain of being so taken in by a BYB'er/puppymiller/greeder in addition to watching their dog slowly die so soon after they got it, all as their funds dwindle and huge debt mounts. Some have no alternative but to painfully try to return the very ill dog for the money they can get in refund and try to find their companion at another, hopefully respected and reputable breeder's home. If we are going to buy and sell dogs for money from breeders who promise a healthy dog, then money and keeping promises are going to have to be part of the conversation when the dog sold is proven to be a sickly dog that shouldn't have been offered for sale. Returning a new, sickly puppy to a breeder is a personal and private decision and every pet owner has to decide what will work for them and their own personal situation in addition to that of the puppy.

its a tough situation either way// I have been very fortunate not to be put in that situation

Ok so give the pup to a rescue don't sent it back to the terrible greeder!

But how would the person recover their money from the breeder, if that is still possible?

The problem is if zoey soft spot brings her hydrocephalus from my understanding she wont have much longer to live thats my issue if it was a treatable condition it could be worked out however water on the brain is very dangerous (worst case scenario)

There should be laws that help the person get there money back with out having to give the puppy they have bonded with back to a terrible breeder who doesn't care about the pup and will do god knows what with it. Its just very wrong that the pup would have to go back to a terrible breeder to either die alone and unloved, to be possibly breed to make some of the greeders money back, or thrown off to another person not being told about the health issues. Even if I could not afford the pups health care I would rather put the put to sleep then give it back to go through god knows what no matter how much money it put me in the hole. This is a life we are talking about one that deserves love.

Personally, I don't think the breeder has any intention of returning even a dollar. Despite what she says, I just get the feeling that she won't do it.


Between returning the dog and giving it up to a rescue (if she can find one with room), that would be what I would choose.

Why would you want to send a puppy back to that situation? How could you send a puppy back to that situation? Do you really want the puppy to die unloved?

It's sad that only a very few states have lemon laws. Florida has one of the best that covers not only breeders in that state, but also anyone from out of state that sells a puppy to someone who lives there.

I haven't been able to find a clear answer about the NJ law, but it sure would be worth finding a lawyer who would go after it. I could see taking the angle that FEDERAL laws apply since the transaction was done via money order.

I also thing a lawyer would be the best way to go right now.

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So eloquently spoken...and so very true....explaning the other side of the coin in heartfelt words, with clarity and sensitive reasoning. The VERY LEAST a respectable, ethical breeder should be offering, is a healthy puppy! No new owner should ever have to go thru this.

:thumbup: @ yorkietalkjilly well said!!!!

Knowing what we know of this breeder, would anyone really want another puppy from her?

If what we know about this breeder is 100% right then the breeder is absolutely not going to want to spend any more money on this puppy at all not even a dime so this puppy could go into a cage and stay there until it dies. How could any one sentence a dog to that? Whether you have the money or not.

The decision to return an ill dog to a breeder is always a heartbreaking one for the buyer because they are relinquishing the dog to someone else to do with as they please but if they thought that person was so wonderful they bought from them in the first place, they can't be all that evil suddenly in a couple of weeks, surely. Oftentimes in the real world of being all one has in the world, existing on a budget, $2,000.00 deductibles and coinsurance before one can get needed medical tests, expensive medications, gas through the roof, long, hot and expensive commutes, sky-high rent /mortgage payments, keeping a job where the work is oppressive and the hours long, hard, grueling and the day exhausting, co-workers who make life harder than hard and a clientele who make it miserable, friends who don't call, sounds in the middle of the night from down the apartment hall too scary to even check out, catcalls waiting for the bus and a simple lunch costs more than a whole sack of groceries five years ago, a budget is something many have to adhere to closely in order to keep themselves alive and functioning day to day, week to week.

Many cannot afford the luxury of turning an ill dog into another rescue to force them to come up with the funds to care for one more greeder's sick dog as the greeder counts the money scott-free. They need their hard-earned money back. Sometimes the only thing to do is to return the sick dog to the person who created it and get back that money often earned through blood, sweat and tears and try to find that so-wanted dog to help them make it through another day. In an ideal world there would be no greeders, sick pups, awful jobs or lonely people living as best they can on limited funds but it's not an ideal world and all cannot live on ideals. It takes money not that easy to come by and making hard choices that wrench the gut and are heart-breaking at times. And it's a personal choice that everyone should feel free to make as best they can.

But why does the puppy have to suffer?

I would certainly hope not. But then when the pup was purchased, it was stated she was a great breeder and was trying to convince people that mixed breeding was good.
We see the results of this now !!

Mixing dogs is a separate issue

No dogs should have to suffer, but Amy knows what she can do both emotionally and financially having to deal with a baby who may be get very ill. She was advised by her vet to return her baby to the breeder. I hear all the time on YT not to buy from bybs, puppymills, and brokers. Amy's breeder should be the one to pay for the medical needs of this puppy. If she's not held responsible, then aren't we allowing her to keep breeding babies that she holds no responsibility for?

I could not give my baby up, right or wrong. I promised to protect and care for Katie, and that is what I will do for the rest of her life. However, I am not going to judge Amy if she chooses to do so. My heart is breaking for little Zoey and for Amy. Not everyone is able to cope with a sick baby. My Ashley had dementia when she turned sixteen, and it was so heartbreaking for both my husband and me. We both were sick a great deal from caring for her that year, and my husband had to be hospitalized a couple of times due to kidney infections and stomach problems. I really worried about how it was affecting his health because he loved her so much and couldn't bear to think that she could be suffering. Our vet assured us that she had a good quality of life still, and we are convinced she remained a happy little girl until the day she passed away. We would have done anything to continue to care for her as long as she was still happy and not suffering, but it definitely took it's toll on us caring for her 24 hours a day but also so much emotionally. No doubt we would do it again in a heartbeat, but luckily my husband was able to stay by her side all day when I was away from home working. I don't think we are better parent because we were able to be there for Ashley, and we did what we felt was right for us.

Amy is asking for our help, our advice, and our support. This has to be heartwrenching for her. Whatever she decides, it will probably be with a very heavy heart.

That's why I would seek legal help before just turning the pup over. There maybe a way to make the breeder pay with out having to give the pup back.

Isn't there a good chance this is a pretty healthy dog who will not need further care for any of these issues? The soft spot is often seen in Chis-I'm not so sure every vet is going to be an expert on this. (I wonder if Amy were posting in a Chi forum if she'd get more info on the soft spot?) The LP is Grade One which isn't unusual in a small dog, & the vulva issue seemed to be pretty minor. If Amy were to keep this pup for now it could turn out to be a pretty "normal" dog, right?
Might we be jumping to conclusions here because we don't approve of the breeder?
Just trying to be a bit more optimistic......

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As a breeder, and having seen other breeders get on here and talk, we plead and beg and cajole and try to educate people about breeders and what to look for......and you see on here, day after day, post after post, people that continue to buy puppies from all the wrong places, from all the wrong breeders, for all the wrong reasons......and the majority end up paying dearly for making uneducated choices. Such is life.....and until the buying public can be educated about what to buy, what not to buy, and who to buy from, and what to look for when they do decide to buy, you will continue to have these tragic endings.

I can imagine what a difficult decision this has to be. Only you can make the decision and it will be the right decision for your circumstance. My Roxie had a good size soft spot when I took her, but the breeder was up front and my vet was not concerned. It closed a lot by age 1 but never completely. But if your vet feels it is best to give back the puppy you need to consider his/her advice. I am so sorry you and the puppy are having to go through this.

Why must the puppy? Who else? Who always gets it in the end when greeders are at work mating everything they can? Yet people line up to buy from them because they are selling a dream or selling "cheap". And who knows if this particular little puppy will suffer to death or if the breeder will euthanize or treat it, despite what she might say now? She can't be an absolute monster or the OP wouldn't have dealt with her, surely.

Not the puppy's fault in any way but why should a buyer have to pay for an ill-bred, sick dog they unwittingly bought in good faith(not including those who knowingly buy from this type greeder) when they can't really afford all of the thousands of dollars in medical bills due to irresponsible breeding? Why else do states make lemon laws that cover the sale of sick dogs if not so unwitting buyers can return sick dogs? It's either that or ask a rescue to try to save the dog when they are already brimming over with unwanted or surrendered dogs.

I'm sure if the OP were wealthy or had people supporting her financially, it wouldn't be an issue and she could think only of the puppy's well-being. But not every one lives in that world, Taylor.

Some live in far more straightened financial circumstances than others, living a very hard-scrabble life of making a tough living where the dollar comes uneasily and have to make life and death choices in more than just canine-related issues. Our own government and the insurance industry do it in the health care coverages they provide and people suffer - children suffer - because of limits and non-covered care or conditions. People, children and babies die because they are ill and cannot get needed care due to hard financial decisions every day. The weakest among us almost always suffer due to others' financial decisions. Amy's little dog is no different.

If BYB'ers are forever allowed to get off continuing to produce sick dogs with no take-backs and we all pay for their breeding mistakes either directly out of our pockets should we sadly buy one of their dogs or by contributing to rescue organization funds, how many more puppies suffer every single time that breeder creates another litter in the future? Perhaps if we made them take back the sick dogs they create and take a stand, they will slow down on how fast they stick just any two dogs together or what pups they offer for sale.

Returning a sick dog to the breeder that created it might be the only way for the public to begin to make a dent in a bad breeders' business. That and sites like this, word of mouth. But in this case, if Amy does take the dog back, I'm certain she will suffer, too, just in a different way.

And hopefully those that read this and other such related threads will learn the high, high price of buying a dog from a less than stellar breeder, the pain and heartbreak to their customers that we all warn about constantly and in the process learn who always ultimately pays the most in the end - the poor, poor little dogs.

There is no way I could finacialy afford a sick puppy right now but if I bought one and it was sick I still absolutely would not give it back no matter what because the puppy doesn't understand why it's leaving the home it's known for weeks and it will morn and stress leaving. Why do puppies and dogs always have to be the one to suffer. Ok so the pup was bought from a bad breed live and learn even get the law involved but don't make a suffering puppy suffer more. The only way the breeder will learn is to get the law involved I highly doubt returning the puppy is gonna make much difference to teach her anything. Callie was sick when I got her and never even thought of giving her back and trust me what she cost and the health care she had to have was certainly not in the budget. I am not rich or never have been.

How many times have we seen that people can be just absolutely wonderful while they are trying to get your money in to their pockets, but then their true personality shows up down the road during a crisis? I do believe that this woman's true personality has come shining through, and it isn't pretty.

I was thinking the same thing. Everyone is jumping to the conclusion that the dog will have hydrocephalus and that is not necessarily true. I just read six different articles on hydrocephalus, and not one of them indicated that open fontanelle was a cause or a symptom of hydrocephalus. Hydrocephalus is a genetic disease of vascular malfunction.

I strongly advise Amy to get a second or third opinion on the open fontanelle, before making any decisions.

That's really admirable, sweet and from your generous heart but it's your personal decision made from your own personal living and financial circumstances and only surmising what you might or might not do given a similar situation. It's only hypothetical and your circumstances could potentially change so drastically some day you could never now know what you might do one day. But right now, you are not walking in Amy's shoes. She and others might feel differently given their own personal financial circumstances, which might be far, far different from yours or the majority here on YT. Some people are pretty much on their own in every way and have to live very hard, more practical lives at times due to being very much on their own with little or no help of any kind from anyone or any entity.

It doesn't mean people are irresponsible or bad people if they want to return a sick dog to the breeder from whence it came and lemon laws in some states are made to help people in that very situation. It does mean that dealing with breeders like that described by the OP on this and on another thread are to be avoided at all costs but, still, it could potentially discourage some bad breeding practices if people would wholesale return newly purchased sick puppies to the breeders and make them deal with what they've produced.