Ruby's Puppies @ 8 weeks old, I have found Great families for all of them.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by dawn27

This topic has been on debate on so many other threads, too too many to mention and people/new members have left this group do to things getting out of hand. This is not what I want, I will not be getting into a debate with anyone. I will not reply to anyone who insist on taking my discission and making in into something that it is not. I am open to any ones opinion and will gladly read any informational links that are given. But I have made my decision and unless we run into health issues during their next vet visit I am keeping with my decision. I thank you for your concern.

Just to clarify: Ruby is not the one who is taking care of the pups, I am. She no longer cleans there butts, I do. They have been weened for more than two weeks now. Ruby has no interest in them other than to eat their food while they try to dry nurse. I am the one who follows them around cleaning up pee and poo. Im the one that corrects them when they get out of hand biting and growling, not Ruby, she runs from them. I have started the training process, teaching them to sit and fetch and play nice and no bite, not Ruby, but me. So none of you can tell me that they need their mother until 12 weeks of age when she has had no interest in them. I am doing everything for them. I feed them, cleaned them, keep them in a clean safe place, I discipline them and correct them all in order to prepare them to their new lives away form their mother and litter mates and I will continue to do so until the very last moment when I hand them over to their new families.

That is what a good, caring breeder who cares about and loves her puppies does. I am doing everything possible to prepare them to leave my home as a single pup who is no longer part of our family or a litter or who has a mother. Its going to happen regardless if it happens at 8 wks or 12 wks or somewhere in between. Its going to happen and its going to be hard on them as much as it will be on me and my family to see them go. But I am doing everything that I can to get them to the point of being an independent, happy self soothing pup. That is why I do things my way.

These are a couple of the behaviors on the mommas part, that reinforces me pulling a female off the breeding program. This is behavior that females present when they are no longer interested in raising and nuturing their babies, and is classic in bitches that are getting too old to have an interest in raising kids! They will tolerate them for 4-5 weeks, but then, "hey, I didnt ask for this, this was YOUR idea of a good time, so now YOU take care of it!" This is a clear indicator this particular female is no longer suitable for breeding....if she was a $5000.00 Ch. show dog that was still actively winning in rings all over the USA, then you may have a little bit of an argument to continue to impose this on her, but no, not Ruby....she has told you as best she can, she wants no part of this. Hoping you are listening to her.... that is what good breeders do with their females.....mutual respect, love, care, and loyality between both the breeder and her ladies. I was curious if you sold those babies limited registration? That is really the only way we reputable breeders have to assure that people with no knowledge about breeding, can not take a pet quality dog and breed it for any kind of profit they can squeeze out of the babies, to anything they can find running down the street. I would check into getting an AKC female that falls within the breed standard for Yorkies, and one that you can dual register with a respected honored registry, such as CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) or UKC (United Kennel Club). Dual registration or even triple registration with these three registeries, projects a more favorable, more respected attitude from prospective buyers.

[gemy]

The Yorkie breeders have been conspicuously absent from this post. In part maybe not to create waves, and to give another fellow breeder space to respond as she saw fit.

As most of you know on this thread, I am not a Yorkie Breeder although I do have one intact male who will be bred (by my breeder) when and with whom she has selected for him and always with my permission. How-ever I do breed another breed.

Dawn - I do hope you re-consider letting small Yorkies go at eight weeks, and try to bring your breeding practices more in line with the National Club. The fact that you said you did not know what YTCA was, was quite surprising given the length of time you have been on here. It is also very sad that you don't know enough of the breed you are breeding to learn about all the reputable registeries and all the not so reputable ones, to find out a whole lot of facts about all. Do you for example even have the illustrated standard for the Yorkshire Terrier?

I do reluctantly have to agree with some posters, who pointed out the fact that it can only be assumed you knowingly posted about letting go at eight weeks your recent litter. And in doing so you would have to have thought that it would be a contentious issue.

You should keep front and center that your puppy buyers are quite capable even now of doing a google search, and for example finding this thread.

What you are doing is in contravention of the National Club's policy. And I do believe you know that.

Falling back upon a vet's recommendation that it is okay to let go at eight weeks is no justification; although you obviously think it is.
Vets as we all well know, do not know enough about all breeds to give experienced enough opinions, about each individual breed of dog.

I can tell you that the good breeders of Yorkies that I know personally do not let go at 8wks but 11-12wks old. And as they are for the main part Canadian and our National club sadly doesn't hold forth on when to let a puppy go, yet still it seems they are more in line with the USA National club then you are.

Finally I would like to point out that in an earlier message of yours to this thread you had clearly indicated your bitch wanted nothing more to do with the puppies, that you were the one doing everything. Quite a different story you now tell as a response to some very valid concerns posted, about the fitness of your bitch to be bred again. You now say you interferred with the natural process of things. Seem to indicate you forced your bitch to leave the puppies, to follow "your" schedule.

Only you actually know the truth. There are at times with some bitches who are very delayed in weaning the puppies might warrant action on the breeders part. But why would you do this? In my understanding of Yorkie maturation and breeders that I know, and btw even large breed breeders, for the most part we let the mother lead the way on the weaning process.

In summation Dawn, I do hope you take the time to review your actions, and the postings here with an open mind. An inquiring mind, that asks oneself how can I do better? Criticism is often times the prod that starts us on a wonderfull journey of self inquiry, of learning, and of research.

[BabyGirl Rosie]

I have read this thread and walked away. I think it needs to be in the hands of those who have the necessary knowledge and experience with breeding. I think Lynzy, Yorkiemom1, and Gemy have done a good job on presenting information that many can benefit from. Hopefully, this thread will provide the knowledge needed for all involved.

[msyorktown]

Originally Posted by BabyGirl Rosie

I have read this thread and walked away. I think it needs to be in the hands of those who have the necessary knowledge and experience with breeding. I think Lynzy, Yorkiemom1, and Gemy have done a good job on presenting information that many can benefit from. Hopefully, this thread will provide the knowledge needed for all involved.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by BabyGirl Rosie

I have read this thread and walked away. I think it needs to be in the hands of those who have the necessary knowledge and experience with breeding. I think Lynzy, Yorkiemom1, and Gemy have done a good job on presenting information that many can benefit from. Hopefully, this thread will provide the knowledge needed for all involved.

If not appreciated by the OP or seen by the OP in the spirit it is given, maybe others that read this thread, in the future, will learn from the information imparted in this thread. We can choose to read books and rules and suggestions for breeding, and decide we have no intention of following such guidelines, but people who are not knowledgable about breeding, need to realize the information is accurate and has been developed from evidenced based research and cases, and not just goofy ideas thrown out there because some breeders like to hear themselves talk or write. If people choose to operate outside recommended guidelines or acceptable practices, that is fine, but newbies need to know the correct way to do something, the acceptable way to do something, and WHY those methods are put out there for us to follow.....they are geared to provide the very best chance for the puppies to develop into the best little citizens they can become!

[Hrossen11]

I personally don't mind Bybs as the op must be, as long as they do things correctly, researching the breed and family history. I breed horses, same idea, breed for quality, even if mixing breeds. Her tactics of force weaning throws red flags my directions. I wouldn't buy a pup from her.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Hrossen11

I personally don't mind Bybs as the op must be, as long as they do things correctly, researching the breed and family history. I breed horses, same idea, breed for quality, even if mixing breeds. Her tactics of force weaning throws red flags my directions. I wouldn't buy a pup from her.

I don't know much about horse breeding, but I know enough to know things are a bit different in the horse world; at least according to my husband who did breed horses.

In the dog world in my definition BYBERS actually don't do things the correct way. They do no testing, they do no pedigree research, they do nothing of what you suggested above; it is the main part of what makes them a byber in the doggie world.

In the doggie world if you mix a "breed" it is no longer purebred. And there are arguments that abound about purebred malaise. Let us save that for another thread.

I agree with you wholeheartedly in any husbandry for almost any kind of animal that will eventually be a companion to humans, force weaning is a very red flag!

[mimimomo]

You should mind Back Yard Breeders, they contribute to pet overpopulation & prevent adoptable dogs from going to new homes & being euthanized.
From what I've experienced personally & from what I've read, was that most breeders have a hard time keeping the Mom away from the pups. In this case, it's different & makes me wonder if this litter was overwhelming for Ruby & if Dawn should continue breeder her.
Dawn, you have not answered valid questions from Taylor & Nancy...Have you done any testings on your breeding stock & are your pups placed w/a strict spay/neuter contract? You say you are doing things YOUR way, but is that the RIGHT way? Breeding to improve the breed or are you breeding as a source of income?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by mimimomo

You should mind Back Yard Breeders, they contribute to pet overpopulation & prevent adoptable dogs from going to new homes & being euthanized.
From what I've experienced personally & from what I've read, was that most breeders have a hard time keeping the Mom away from the pups. In this case, it's different & makes me wonder if this litter was overwhelming for Ruby & if Dawn should continue breeder her.
Dawn, you have not answered valid questions from Taylor & Nancy...Have you done any testings on your breeding stock & are your pups placed w/a strict spay/neuter contract? You say you are doing things YOUR way, but is that the RIGHT way? Breeding to improve the breed or are you breeding as a source of income?

The testing on the breeding stock should be self evident, ie posted with the reputable health registries, ie CHIC, OFFA, and CERF. You can go to these sites and look up the kennel name to see what if any dogs have any tests.

Spay and neuter contract, if that is not on her site, well I guess you will have to ask her as you have done to respond.
And I would like to remind everyone that in different countries in terms of spay and neuter there is no such thing as a spay and neuter contract. I am not advocating this for North America; but there are extant actual non breeding agreements that could be put into play.

[normarae63]

Originally Posted by BabyGirl Rosie

I have read this thread and walked away. I think it needs to be in the hands of those who have the necessary knowledge and experience with breeding. I think Lynzy, Yorkiemom1, and Gemy have done a good job on presenting information that many can benefit from. Hopefully, this thread will provide the knowledge needed for all involved.

I've walked away several times & agree with every word of this post. Thanks Rhonda for putting into words what so many of us are feeling.

[jadabug]

Originally Posted by BabyGirl Rosie

I have read this thread and walked away. I think it needs to be in the hands of those who have the necessary knowledge and experience with breeding. I think Lynzy, Yorkiemom1, and Gemy have done a good job on presenting information that many can benefit from. Hopefully, this thread will provide the knowledge needed for all involved.

agree totally

[dawn27]

I am very thankful for all of the information provided and concern you have shown. I am always open to constructive criticism, but what I will not put up with is the nonsense comments by people who know nothing about me and sit and judge when they dont know the entire story. Nor do I feel like I need to sit down and explain myself to them in order for them to understand that I care about these pups. So, in order to keep my sanity I have to take what some say, those who have make assumptions about me or my choice to breeding and the way I choose to raise my pups and move on. I will take the good and leave the bad but in the end it is still my decision and mine alone.

I will do what I feel is best for them and their new families. It has always been my goal to provide well adjusted, well socialize healthy pups to the people who I have chosen. Im not going to just let an one walk into my home a carry off one of my pups just because they have money in hand. That is just ridiculous. After they find me, I choose them, they dont choose me. I have gone to great lengths to find the perfect families for each of these pups.

Plus, I have not been dishonest about my part in weening the pups. I just don't think that I had to explain every little detail. I have always done it that way. I have made adjustments with each litter that I've had and switched it in order for each individual pups needs in order for them to thrive and move forward at their own pace.

Please do not make any further comment about Ruby. She has been and still is a wonderful mother. I made choices for her and set my own schedule for the pups. If she could of been she would still be by there side day and night. But, than I would have compleat chaos and the pups would be delayed in their development. We had to and we must move forward. I am happy with their progress and feel that they (some) are ready to move on at this point.

Thank you, those who took this thread as it was intended and shared in my Joyful moment and to who offered usefull information and who did not judge me in any way.

I'm moving on and I hope you will too.

[gemy]

Dawn the 'whole" story was not shared by you. And even if we had the "whole" story as told by you, it would not be whole or un-biased; how could it be?

All I can re-iterate when things are calmer in your heart and mind, is to mayhap read this thread again. Hear our concerns; they are multifold.

Again you re-iterate you set the weaning process. But if that female actually on her own lost interest in the pups at 4 or 5 wks along; seriously this is a problem.

Let me share a true story. The mother of Magic now this is a large breed but in this sceanario it is applicable. After her 3rd litter, when she had raised and coddled those pups so well 3 times before. Two things happened with her 4th litter. She walked away from the pups at 4wks old. Wanted nothing to do with them; and she began to growl at her owner/ her breeder when she tried to adjust or change things in the whelping room. Her breeder said to me, she is done. I have spayed her now. She knew that this was not good Mom behaviour. And btw the way this female was OTCH. Obedience Trial Champion of Merit. And for what it is worth a multi conformation champion, and also a service and personal assist dog. She helps her owner, transfer from wheelchair to bed and back again; retreives things, opens fridge doors etc.

So for this bitch to growl at her owner? Unheard of and very worrisome.
The breeder did what was right; the dog had had enough. She was spayed.

Just as I said before .. read again with open and soft mind, with an undertone of wanting to learn to truly hear what others are saying, without a knee jerk re-action to dismiss.