Help with my Yorkie.. I think I have ruined him anti-social (long)

[MandiesMom]

I think it will be great if Gemy can find you a trainer in your area. All the techniques that you can learn would take time - you AND him learning. Ya know? With a trainer, they can jump right in with their knowledge and get you both on track.

I know you will do what's right for him in the end. Right now, that is you doing all you can do to see if it will work out. Good luck!! Keep us posted! And, good for you!

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by MandiesMom

I think it will be great if Gemy can find you a trainer in your area. All the techniques that you can learn would take time - you AND him learning. Ya know? With a trainer, they can jump right in with their knowledge and get you both on track.

I know you will do what's right for him in the end. Right now, that is you doing all you can do to see if it will work out. Good luck!! Keep us posted! And, good for you!

Indeed. Just hire one long enough to get yourself some basic handling abilities and then YT can help you through the rest. You won't have to spend a lot of $ for extensive training if you will start to read all that you can about basic obedience, dog handling, etc., and get informed about how dogs learn, what inspires and makes them pay attention to you and how to gain respect. Tamar Geller's The Loved Dog is an excellent book but you can also read countless articles about dog training and behavior online at some of the more respected dog websites. Read all you can, hire and work with your trainer for a few basic sessions and you will then know some more about how to train and motivate a dog. Normally, YT could walk you through all of this but since you don't have even basic knowledge about how to feed, housebreaking or how to train, your easiest and less frustrating to success for you and your dog will be with a professional.

[georgepie]

Hi all, I have booked a trainer for George and I from Bark Busters. We begin in a week and a half time. It is guaranteed to work..they are professionals and behaviourists that come right in the home. I will be updating and sharing the progress and what I learn for anyone interested. Should have him under control soon. Thanks for all the advice. I'll keep the progress posted.

[rubynrosie]

Originally Posted by georgepie

Hi all, I have booked a trainer for George and I from Bark Busters. We begin in a week and a half time. It is guaranteed to work..they are professionals and behaviourists that come right in the home. I will be updating and sharing the progress and what I learn for anyone interested. Should have him under control soon. Thanks for all the advice. I'll keep the progress posted.

This makes me so happy!!! I can't wait to read your updates!

[yorkietalkjilly]

I'm so thrilled to hear it. Hoping this works out beautifully and you and your little one can become a great team. I'm going to bold this because it is so important:

Read the paragraph below when you hire a dog trainer:

Be sure that trainer shows you how to read your dog's body language and when - timing is so important - is the time to step in and stop/correct/redirect and how to humanely discipline for the few times they do need that. But the trainer who works just with your dog and doesn't have you doing the work isn't doing you any favors. The money-only trainers come out and because they are good with dogs and are a stranger with lots of authority(most dogs obey people like that easier than their owner anyway), train them beautifully right in front of you, have the dogs doing all of the lessons and fulfilling the contract and have lived up to their guarantee. But in time, because they didn't teach YOU, and didn't improve YOUR dog skills, the dog reverts to old behaviors. Then, they need more $$$ to come out and "rehab" the dog. See how that can work? A trainer worth his certificate will train YOU how to train the dog and keep it trained its whole life.

[gemy]

Agreed!

I am nowhere near the "trainer" my trainer is. And their focus has been a lot upon me.

I would suggest to stick with a single reward based system. In the beginning as a novice, I feel it is always best to not confuse yourself with too many different systems.

One huge key is consistency and repetition. Lots and Lots of both.

And training is a life long love affair with your dog. Truly it is so great to do always over their life.

For example yesterday; I was slicing chicken - I use this for doggey treats, so the boys were beside me in the kitchen. A piece dropped to the floor, whizz Razzle had got to that piece before I could even get the Leave It command out of my mouth. Awh - I need to refresh my boys on the command. So for the next 30 minutes - I deliberately dropped pieces onto the floor. Only 3x was it necessary for me to say leave it! They were both rewarded for their obedience- immediately and quickly. Then I moved to dropping apiece and saying nothing. They left the goodie alone. Annother reward for both. Then I dropped a piece walked out of the room - and voila chicken piece still on the floor.

This is refreshment of a skill they already learnt years ago, but "forgot" as we have not worked on it recently.

While this is slightly off topic, I like to train my dogs to take "nothing" that is dropped on the floor in kitchen or dining room. It takes a couple of years truly for this to be so ingrained in them. Kitchens are dangerous places, bones can inadvertently get dropped and other things not good for dogs.

[yorkietalkjilly]

No kidding, gemy. The training is ongoing and one can readily see in interactions with our dogs when that is needed. I do the "leave it" refresher about 3 times a year but that is one thing he does very easily - leaves/drops things and backs off. He KNOWS in his KNOWER that this just delights me and he's going to get very good treats and one happy mommie so he easily does it - never really forgets - so far. Also he's really good at staying and remaining in place. Those two come easy for him. But front door excitement via doorbell/knocking is one thing we work on about once a month. He's a natural greeter and does so want to amp up and get all excited to greet in a furor. Have to keep reinforcing not to do that.

[georgepie]

Yeah they come in the home and teach the owner what to do and don't use treat training methods. Heres some stuff from the website.. Should be great progress..I'm pretty excited...

Lesson day: The first session typically takes 2.5 to 3 hours and consists of the following:

Situation Assessment: We conduct a detailed interview with you to best assess the problem. We assess your dog’s temperament and the environment. Then we develop the plan of action that will best suit your dog.
Explanation of the Bark Busters technique: We want you to understand the theory behind our techniques so you are fully involved in the solution implementation.
Implement training techniques: Once we determine the best course of action, we coach you on the techniques so your dog begins to see you as the leader and builds trust in you. We want to make sure you are executing the program correctly before we leave.
Homework: We will leave you with a written plan to follow so your dog can continue to build on the results achieved in the first session.
As many follow up visits as are required. Every case is different, so it is difficult to say how many follow up visits will be required. Some clients are delighted to see the problems fixed after only the first session; some need many more. Either way, our one time flat fee covers as many follow ups as are required. There is one condition on this: that you follow the program as outlined in the homework we leave you.

Post Lesson assessment. We conduct one more assessment by email. We feel it is important to measure progress quantitatively.

Written Lifetime Guarantee

We believe wholeheartedly in our methods which is why we back them up with a Written Lifetime Guarantee. As long as you are following the prescribed plan, our behaviour therapists will return free of charge at any point in your dog’s life if problems reoccur or even if a new one emerges. We give you the peace of mind that the problem will be fixed quickly, and will stay fixed.

[yorkietalkjilly]

This sounds wonderful. Non-treat-based training usually requires excellent dog handling skills, goes a bit slower, takes more work and a dog that works for praise or another reward. Nervous dogs sometimes don't do as well with it. Some dogs don't work that well with praise so I have no problem at all with using a portion of the dog's daily ration of food for use in treat-based training. It works faster for me. But there are dogs who won't take treats or could care less so you find what it is they work for and use that as a reward. Some large working dogs will do anything you say in a training session if they know you will bounce their tennis ball in their direction at the end. Tibbe will often just stand there and look at the ball. Others want a tugowar session - no treats - just knowing they get that session after training. Others work hard to get that "Good boy" or the "yesss" or a click on the clicker - in fact, he jumps away from the clicker. Tibbe doesn't really care so much for "Good boy" or praise - could care less and it takes more skill to keep him interested - more enthusiasm and repetitions and I have to realize I'm competing with the surroundings to make me and the trick more interesting to him. I have certain little tricks I use to get and keep his attention but it is more work for me(ugh!). But throw in a crisp piece of kibble and he's quick to respond. So treat-based training is fine if you use a portion of their daily food allowance and they work faster and happier that way. Whatever works to get and keep your dog interested in you and doing what you are trying to get it to do and both of you stay happy in the process is the best method to use.

I love a genuine "lifetime guarantee" and hope they stay in business as long as you might need them. Be sure what the term "lifetime" refers to in the contract. That term definition should be specifically described in the contract and further clarified in writing that no additional monies are required for their return training lessons in the home at any time in the future.

[georgepie]

I'm doing more research on the system and might cancel and try a different trainer... this is a franchise so anybody could take the training class then work for the company..I don't know what to expect its expensive too at 795$ - lots of mixed reviews.. these people might not be all that experienced training..

"lifetime" guarantee is definitely a marketing ploy..

[yorkietalkjilly]

I disagree with their collars and chain throwing, etc, and all that "baaa" stuff isn't that different for the $$$. That franchise is expensive and often trainers don't know that much, don't respond or return calls, and other are fine - if you use their collar and so forth. But don't let ANY trainer talk you into training with a collar on a Yorkie. Not necessary. They are no better than any other big business dog training and have some bad PR, just like all of them. I don't know if they still use it but growling at your own dog to train it just isn't necessary!

[gemy]

I've not heard back from my two trainers yet, to see if they know of a good one in Ottawa.

In terms of pricing; for my working dog trainer I paid $500 per year with no limit on the amount of times we could come. I usually went 3x per wk when he was a puppy, and once for the Sunday play date.

My competitive obedience trainer I work with privately at $40 per hour. Sometimes it is only once per week, sometimes 2x, she is pretty flexible. But we do have a long term relationship.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Why don't you see if you can join an obedience club in your area. They are a great resource if you have anything like that. Often some real dog handlers with excellent skills in them.

[georgepie]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I disagree with their collars and chain throwing, etc, and all that "baaa" stuff isn't that different for the $$$. That franchise is expensive and often trainers don't know that much, don't respond or return calls, and other are fine - if you use their collar and so forth. But don't let ANY trainer talk you into training with a collar on a Yorkie. Not necessary. They are no better than any other big business dog training and have some bad PR, just like all of them. I don't know if they still use it but growling at your own dog to train it just isn't necessary!

Yes - as I read more reviews...seems kind of bizarre and mean..like provoking fear in the animal to shut it up and do what you want...? Look at this review I found on yelp:

My barky puppy at the time weighed less than 3 lbs and I was taught to hurl a chain-filled bean bag so it would land near him and mimic mama dog's snap. I was terrified I'd bean him so they kept telling me to throw it closer. No. Too risky for a teensy dog.

Then they suggested that I enclose my puppy in a small room, hand each of 3 friends a chain-filled bean bag and when he barked, we all were to hurl the bag toward him. No. At that point I knew this was a screwy method. Also the "bahhh" growl they teach you to do is stupid. If I can't train my dog using human commands...I am NOT a dog, I'm a human.

Since then I've found that positive reinforcement and treat based training, sometimes with clickers, has worked well. Also I can give Ri a look and he KNOWS to stop.

The funny thing is that when I searched web pre-yelp for BB reviews I couldn't find anything--they seemed to do a good job of SEO back then, and probably because there are many like me who did not see the efficacy of this method. Now, you see more negatives, even from vet offices. Steer clear of this one. There are plenty of better, more effective training programs that cost way less.

[yorkietalkjilly]

I wasn't going to say anything about them if you'd already bought them but when you posted you were having second thoughts, I thought I'd say what I thought! I don't think just any dog training is better than none but these kind of aversives use to train a dog isn't necessary and badly scares a nervous dog. Just basic old sit, lie down, stay, stop, turn around, rollover and positive rewards-based training is all that it takes to start an unruly dog down the road to redemption. Just training them over and over in those simple things gets them used to listen to and obeying your requests. And the dogs will be begging for training all of the time. They will start to "throw behaviors" or do their tricks when not asked to in order to tell you it is time to train. Tibbe will come and just rollover or sit up and beg out of the blue - and then stop and stand starring at me - begging me for a training session. It is his most favorite thing in the world - well, that and barking at cats and squirrels!

In time, you start to stand up, walk over to them and back them off bad behaviors with your body attitude, no-nonsense eye contact, pointing at them as you walk toward them and stopping the behavior then and there. You then stay over them until they turn away and show no sign of trying the behavior again and you keep looking over at them to reinforce that for a good while. When one of my dogs in training does back off a bad behavior, calm down and shows no sign of repeating a bad behavior, I will often - but not always - get up and give it a treat or toss one from my treat pouch which is usually near. Over time even the wildest dog will start to listen to someone who works faithfully with them in basic obedience and backs them off bad behavior and keeps a stern watch. To further keep good behavior going, once a dog has back off a bad behavior, I will get his toy basket out accompanied by great enthusiasm and talking high in a squeaky voice or give him something to chew on - something to play with, toss him a ball over and over and over. Play with or walk him. All of that to kind of get his thoughts away from and as a further reward to backing off what he was doing wrong.

It's simple but it works. Plain old teaching a dog to do simple tricks and rewarding them doing those basic tricks over and over will in time cause that same dog to pay lots more attention to other things you indicate for it to do or not to do. Simple but nobody wants to stick with it for too long or get up and stop a bad behavior in the middle of a good movie or while washing clothes, sweeping the floor, etc. But those are the times you do have to stop what you are doing and back them off, stand them down. In time - a simple "no" from the other room will work!

A good trainer will come out and show you all of this with you doing it and give you a schedule to work on, etc., then come back out in two weeks and see your program. Some will let you Skype your activities on your TV in the meantime and will stop anything you are doing wrong then.

In the meantime, joining an obedience club somewhere in your area can find you a good trainer if you can't find one otherwise. Watching videos of how to do simple obedience training on YouTube will help, too. Watch those that are positive-reward based and don't involve aversives training.