Household problems - my girls are fighting

[Marilize]

My girls have recently started to take a dislike to each other. June is a spayed three year old Yorkie and Joni is an one year old Biewer. Joni isn't spayed because she's breeding quality and it's not an option. A couple of months ago, they started fighting with each other and it has become progressively worse. At first I thought June started the fights when she thought the younger, but bigger Joni was stepping out of bounds, but it wasn't long before I saw Joni fly at June.

I don't really know what to do anymore and I don't think I handled it very well to begin with. I tried to walk away in the beginning because that's what a dog behaviourist recommended. It didn't help much and they just kept fighting, more and more frequently. It usually starts when I give them attention, but I can't keep track of who starts the fights. It started out as infrequent brawls, but now they get all tense around each other. Joni is starting to lose confidence although she wins the fights, and June is becoming more and more demanding.

I don't really know what to do anymore. I've read that this is a problem that can't usually be resolved because bitches tend to hold a grudge against the other. Males fight for breeding rights, but bitches fight for breathing rights. I can't bear the thought of rehoming either of them, but something's got to give. They aren't drawing blood... yet. Any ideas?

[anniernc]

I wish I knew the solution. I've got the same thing going on at my house but it's only when me and my husband are home together. One of them starts staring at the other and as I call it rattlesnakin her tail and it gets the other one started. The real bad thing is when the smallest one latches on to the other it's so hard to get her to let go. All of my girls are spayed.

[Marilize]

Originally Posted by anniernc

I wish I knew the solution. I've got the same thing going on at my house but it's only when me and my husband are home together. One of them starts staring at the other and as I call it rattlesnakin her tail and it gets the other one started. The real bad thing is when the smallest one latches on to the other it's so hard to get her to let go. All of my girls are spayed.

My small Yorkie girl also does the rattlesnake-thing! Someone on another forum suggested establishing and enforcing one of them as the alpha, but even if I were to risk that, I wouldn't know who is supposed to be on top.

[kjc]

Well I have a mix here... two intact girls , a spayed girl and an old neutered male. We have the occassional bout, but from the beginning I've always gotten right in the middle of things and stopped it. Some days are worse than others, due to personality flares and attention seeking. Now if I holler at them (like I really mean it) they will stop before I can even get to them. Only a few times have I had to separate them. I hold off the attacker till she/he calms down or they get right back at it. When that happens, I jump in and separate them again and hold the attacker for a longer period of time, or try to get him/her refocused on something else.

My attitude is that I am the boss, I will decide who fights and when (which is never, bc I pay the vet bills), and I will protect from harm any and all of them equally. That's the main rule in my house, and they know I won't put up with any nonsense.

When I first got a second Yorkie, well before that, I had an aging GSD, an aging Maltese, and a youngish Yorkie. They all knew what to do and when to do it. And they were all well behaved, for the most part. When the two oldest passed, and I added 3 youngsters, wow, did my life change! This was so much harder! I used to be friends and kind to my dogs... these new ones were making me crazy. Playing, fighting over toys, attention, fighting just getting harnesses on to go for a walk! (bc wearing them out helps and makes them feel more pack-like when they return home).

I had to kick it in to Packmaster gear real quick. For a few months it was tough, I had to have my eyes and ears on alert 24/7. After a few months they settled down, and I was once again able to relax a little. Now just an occassional 'Ah, Ah!' does the trick and peace is restored. It was well worth doing... teaching them what I expected and what I would not allow. Now it's more fun than work...

Also there are some things we don't do. Sometimes petting one or two can set them off. I try to avoid those situations... I may pick one up to pet, then put her down and grab the other one to pet. Setting one back down at anytime can set them off. I look for signals and try to discourage nastiness.

And when they act right, I try to remember to always say 'Good Dog!' and 'What a Good girl!' (adding the 'What a' has a better effect) so they learn what is good to do.

[gemy]

Okay the worstest case scenario is that one has to be rehomed. I don't believe you are at that yet, as no blood has been drawn.

Next: Permanent segregation. Through the use of gates, or keep one upstairs and one downstairs. And if your house doesn't allow for either it is crate and rotate.

My concern is if you are going to breed that Biewer with another bitch in the house....yowsers! Especially because of the enmity at this point in time.

For now you must establish absolute dominance over both girls. I know this may sound harsh, but they have been allowed to get away with bad behaviour to one another for several months. It is always best to nip this in the bud, once it begins.

Alright right now, this moment in time. Crate one. Then take the other outside for a walk; or if it is too hot out, inside for some obedience training. With treats for good behaviour. Work 5 -10 minutes with her

Then crate that one you just finished training. Out comes the other female for same training same amount of time.

Repeat daily at least two times per day.

Then after four days. both girls on harnesses and leads. Out you go for a walk with them together. Immediately discipline for bad behaviour, ideally interfer prior to this. Watch the body language clues, staring, rigid tail, or sometimes snakely tail, ears back, lips curled, brow furrowed, all these are precoursors to "bad behaviour". First redirect the behaviour. Most effective immediately give an obedience command to that girl. Reward for obedience. If you miss the clue, and an attack ensues, firmly and quickly correct the aggressor. And then immediately walk back home and place the miscreant in house; then continue a walk with the other girl.

Feed them together but stay present and very alert. IF one finishes food first and tries to meander over to the other bowl, interfer with that.

While many here do NOT use crates for discipline I do. If there is an aggressor, or IF you don't know who is the aggressor, both girls go in their separate crates for at least 5minutes. Bad behaviour continues 10 minutes.

Some other ways to establish dominance - and I do this intermittently still. I make my dogs wait at bottom or top of stairs while I descend or ascend first. I reward with good boy or girl after I issue release command.

You always go out the door first, and come in first, they must wait for your command to go through the door.

You eat first, and then you feed the pups.

There is no "free" lap time. No dogs are allowed up on your lap or the couch unless you invite them up.

No sleeping in bed with you for now.

If you invite one girl up on your lap, and the other snarls or growls, crate time for her.

Try not to get frustrated or angry; but have a firm no nonsense tone, and just do what needs to be done.

Teach each gal the STOP command. This is an emergency command, and is never ever to be disobeyed. When learning this command in the beginning days give gently firm corrections if they don't stop immediately. Then progress once you see that they have understood STOP means no movement; if they disobey make the correction harsher; through voice intonation, and leash correction.

Once they get STOP, and they get it well, STOP should stop any untoward behaviour.

Best of luck with your gals.

[kjc]

Peek A Boo no longer sleeps on our bed. He got better at not attacking the others but never stopped completely, so he was banished to sleeping in his bed on the floor in our bedroom. (Sometimes we do take naps together though... just me and him). I hated having to do this, but he gave me no choice. He is the smallest, but usually always ended up being the one that got hurt.

Whatever we decided to do though took a lot of thought and trial and error, and our decisions are just what works the best for us and our dogs. Whenever we made any changes, I always watched for signs of depression, or even increased aggression, then made more changes until we hit on something that worked..

[kjc]

Originally Posted by gemy

Okay the worstest case scenario is that one has to be rehomed. I don't believe you are at that yet, as no blood has been drawn.

Next: Permanent segregation. Through the use of gates, or keep one upstairs and one downstairs. And if your house doesn't allow for either it is crate and rotate.

My concern is if you are going to breed that Biewer with another bitch in the house....yowsers! Especially because of the enmity at this point in time.

For now you must establish absolute dominance over both girls. I know this may sound harsh, but they have been allowed to get away with bad behaviour to one another for several months. It is always best to nip this in the bud, once it begins.

Alright right now, this moment in time. Crate one. Then take the other outside for a walk; or if it is too hot out, inside for some obedience training. With treats for good behaviour. Work 5 -10 minutes with her

Then crate that one you just finished training. Out comes the other female for same training same amount of time.

Repeat daily at least two times per day.

Then after four days. both girls on harnesses and leads. Out you go for a walk with them together. Immediately discipline for bad behaviour, ideally interfer prior to this. Watch the body language clues, staring, rigid tail, or sometimes snakely tail, ears back, lips curled, brow furrowed, all these are precoursors to "bad behaviour". First redirect the behaviour. Most effective immediately give an obedience command to that girl. Reward for obedience. If you miss the clue, and an attack ensues, firmly and quickly correct the aggressor. And then immediately walk back home and place the miscreant in house; then continue a walk with the other girl.

Feed them together but stay present and very alert. IF one finishes food first and tries to meander over to the other bowl, interfer with that.

While many here do NOT use crates for discipline I do. If there is an aggressor, or IF you don't know who is the aggressor, both girls go in their separate crates for at least 5minutes. Bad behaviour continues 10 minutes.

Some other ways to establish dominance - and I do this intermittently still. I make my dogs wait at bottom or top of stairs while I descend or ascend first. I reward with good boy or girl after I issue release command.

You always go out the door first, and come in first, they must wait for your command to go through the door.

You eat first, and then you feed the pups.

There is no "free" lap time. No dogs are allowed up on your lap or the couch unless you invite them up.

No sleeping in bed with you for now.

If you invite one girl up on your lap, and the other snarls or growls, crate time for her.

Try not to get frustrated or angry; but have a firm no nonsense tone, and just do what needs to be done.

Teach each gal the STOP command. This is an emergency command, and is never ever to be disobeyed. When learning this command in the beginning days give gently firm corrections if they don't stop immediately. Then progress once you see that they have understood STOP means no movement; if they disobey make the correction harsher; through voice intonation, and leash correction.

Once they get STOP, and they get it well, STOP should stop any untoward behaviour.

Best of luck with your gals.

Excellent advice. I forgot to mention most of what Gemy hit on. They seem like such small things, ie: eating first, being first to go out through a door, etc., but those are important things to a dog and help immensely with them seeing YOU as their leader....

[gemy]

Kathy your last sentence is so very important. Evaluate how well what you are doin; is it working? Did the behaviour change, how so? Each dog, and each relationship is different and can change over time.

[Marilize]

Thank you so much for the suggestions! I'm already doing some of those things (like eating together while supervised, never entering a door before I do, etc.), but I do feed them before I eat for practical reasons. I'll stop that though.
Regarding lap time, OMW, June has this way of sneaking into my lap so that I don't even notice she's there until she's happily settled in for a while. She's only 4lbs and I'll really have to pay more attention to get her to stop doing this. She's a lap hog.

I'll start doing the walking/crating thing tonight. Do I need to separate them completely during the day too? I can divide my yard in half if need be.

[gracielove]

As gemy mentioned another BIG issue here is that if you are going to breed your unspayed female you are in for tons of trouble if you do not get this problem resolved. I don't know who told you to just walk away from fighting dogs but I would from here out walk away from their advice.

I hope the advice you have been given by others will help because this is not something that will resolve it's self.

[Marilize]

Originally Posted by gracielove

As gemy mentioned another BIG issue here is that if you are going to breed your unspayed female you are in for tons of trouble if you do not get this problem resolved. I don't know who told you to just walk away from fighting dogs but I would from here out walk away from their advice.

I hope the advice you have been given by others will help because this is not something that will resolve it's self.

Thanks, I'm very aware of the magnitude of this problem and I am doing everything I can do get it resolved. I am planning to breed my unspayed female and things need to get a lot better before then.

I am no longer listening to that behaviourist and I'm no longer walking away. Weirdly, after I got home after work today, the girls have been playing with each other with no tension between them at all. No signs of aggression yet today.

[hartygirl]

I'm sure that both of your pups are just wonderful, especially individually, but you should think about spaying your Biewer, the aggressiveness isn't a trait I'd look for when purchasing a pup.

Talk to some of the breeders on here, they can help you make that decision.

Also talk to the breeders that you got both girls from and see if either has dealt with issues like that in their lines before. They will want to know if they are responsible so they can re-think their lines.

By breeding her and bringing puppies into this situation you are potentially putting a lot of dogs at risk.

I really hope you can find a solution to this, maybe a vet visit to make sure neither pup is in pain or discuss anxiety medication with the vet?

[Marilize]

Originally Posted by hartygirl

I'm sure that both of your pups are just wonderful, especially individually, but you should think about spaying your Biewer, the aggressiveness isn't a trait I'd look for when purchasing a pup.

Talk to some of the breeders on here, they can help you make that decision.

Also talk to the breeders that you got both girls from and see if either has dealt with issues like that in their lines before. They will want to know if they are responsible so they can re-think their lines.

By breeding her and bringing puppies into this situation you are potentially putting a lot of dogs at risk.

I really hope you can find a solution to this, maybe a vet visit to make sure neither pup is in pain or discuss anxiety medication with the vet?

She is not aggressive, I thought I made that clear. She is retaliating from a spayed, aggressive Yorkie bitch. She does not start the fights, otherwise I would never EVER breed her. I have spoken to her breeder and no, it's not an issue in her line.

The Yorkie bitch's breeder isn't someone I'm proud to be associated with and if I could go back, I would never get a puppy from her. I was stupid and ignorant, but I've learned a lot and fast, thanks to great doggie friends I met on this forum. Sadly, June is the problem and she is the one who starts the fights. She is also the one who is spayed.

[hartygirl]

Originally Posted by Marilize

My girls have recently started to take a dislike to each other. June is a spayed three year old Yorkie and Joni is an one year old Biewer. Joni isn't spayed because she's breeding quality and it's not an option. A couple of months ago, they started fighting with each other and it has become progressively worse. At first I thought June started the fights when she thought the younger, but bigger Joni was stepping out of bounds, but it wasn't long before I saw Joni fly at June.

I don't really know what to do anymore and I don't think I handled it very well to begin with. I tried to walk away in the beginning because that's what a dog behaviourist recommended. It didn't help much and they just kept fighting, more and more frequently. It usually starts when I give them attention, but I can't keep track of who starts the fights. It started out as infrequent brawls, but now they get all tense around each other. Joni is starting to lose confidence although she wins the fights, and June is becoming more and more demanding.

I don't really know what to do anymore. I've read that this is a problem that can't usually be resolved because bitches tend to hold a grudge against the other. Males fight for breeding rights, but bitches fight for breathing rights. I can't bear the thought of rehoming either of them, but something's got to give. They aren't drawing blood... yet. Any ideas?

I'm sorry but this is where I read that the Joni, the Biewer was starting fights as well as the yorkshire terrier June.

Maybe I read it wrong, sorry, best of luck to your pups and future liters.

[Marilize]

Originally Posted by hartygirl

I'm sorry but this is where I read that the Joni, the Biewer was starting fights as well as the yorkshire terrier June.

Maybe I read it wrong, sorry, best of luck to your pups and future liters.

Thanks for pointing that out. I was still a bit confused about it until this morning, when June stopped Joni from moving into a doorway. This is not the first time that June has prevented Joni from going somewhere. And if Joni moves, she attacks. I have no doubts about who is bullying who anymore.

Joni just defends herself, she cowers and shies away from June, but she will defend herself because she is much bigger than June.