Household problems - my girls are fighting

[gemy]

You asked about crating during the day, and my answer is yes. Crate/rotate. Until the situation is resolved. They need to "earn" their freedom together.

Plus you can't in all practicality be ontop of them 24/7. And you really do need to be ontop of things if they are both out in the room at the same time.

Best of luck, and let us know how it is going.

[Teresa Ford]

NILIF - Nothing in Life is Free Program For Dogs

Gemy and kjc gave the same advice I would give. Check out the link above

[Marilize]

Just a quick update:

I've started crating/rotating them permanently to stop any further fights. I've set up an expen in a half shady/half sunny spot outside for a roomy space for one to chill while the other is out. My aim is to prevent any and all further fights until we have sorted out the issue. We're starting a vigorous routine of walking and training tonight to further help the girls get along and by the start of next week I'll start walking them together.

I read this in an article about dominance related aggression:

"The owner must determine which dog is most likely to achieve and maintain a dominant status and reinforce his higher ranking position by ensuring that he is the first to receive access to all resources. The second ranking dog should be obliged to follow. This decision is based on the age, tenure, health, and temperament of the two dogs. In general, the elder, incumbent dog is the one to support ("senior support program") and this approach is usually the best one when setting out to correct such problems. "

What are your thoughts?

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by Marilize

Just a quick update:

I've started crating/rotating them permanently to stop any further fights. I've set up an expen in a half shady/half sunny spot outside for a roomy space for one to chill while the other is out. My aim is to prevent any and all further fights until we have sorted out the issue. We're starting a vigorous routine of walking and training tonight to further help the girls get along and by the start of next week I'll start walking them together.

I read this in an article about dominance related aggression:

"The owner must determine which dog is most likely to achieve and maintain a dominant status and reinforce his higher ranking position by ensuring that he is the first to receive access to all resources. The second ranking dog should be obliged to follow. This decision is based on the age, tenure, health, and temperament of the two dogs. In general, the elder, incumbent dog is the one to support ("senior support program") and this approach is usually the best one when setting out to correct such problems. "

What are your thoughts?

I don't think the situation is as cut and dried as the article assumes. If the dog that was there first does not want to give up it's position as the "top dog" I don't think it is fair to allow the new on to take it's place in the ranking order. But if the new dog is very dominate you could continue to have problems off and on with toys, territory, etc. I'm no expert. You have a job on your hands for sure.

[Marilize]

Thanks. The article goes on to say that in most cases you support the senior dog. I think that's what I'm going to do although June is smaller. She is older and obviously not keen to give up her position. I've got to work with her to reinforce her dominance by putting Joni away when there's a fight, and giving June food and other valuables first. They're going to keep fighting until they've established who's the boss of whom.

By the end of the week I'll be walking them together and slowly reintroducing them to each other. I'll post the link to the article later (it's on my browser at work), but it gives detailed directions for reintroducing them safely after confinement. I must say, I can't take more than a week of this... It's terrible having to crate one of them all the time.

[kjc]

Originally Posted by Marilize

Thanks. The article goes on to say that in most cases you support the senior dog. I think that's what I'm going to do although June is smaller. She is older and obviously not keen to give up her position. I've got to work with her to reinforce her dominance by putting Joni away when there's a fight, and giving June food and other valuables first. They're going to keep fighting until they've established who's the boss of whom.

By the end of the week I'll be walking them together and slowly reintroducing them to each other. I'll post the link to the article later (it's on my browser at work), but it gives detailed directions for reintroducing them safely after confinement. I must say, I can't take more than a week of this... It's terrible having to crate one of them all the time.

There's many methods to helping them to get along, I think consistency on your part will do wonders. Yes, pretty intensive work in the beginning, but when you can start trusting them again it will be so worth it.

[gloriajean]

there is tread on here about a female killing the other female's puppies. I used to breed and i always crated my females when they were in heat or had nursing puppies just to keep them safe. when they have puppies they usually are more aggressive toward other dogs even if they got along before
having the puppies. invest in a large crate with a grate in the bottom that allows for waste to drop into a plastic pan in the bottom of the cage it keeps the puppies and mom clean, good luck with the training, obedience training works wonders and you've gotten great advise from everyone.

[Marilize]

We had a breakthrough this morning! I've been crating and rotating since the weekend and I've been walking with them separately every day. So, this morning I put June outside to potty while Joni was inside. We have a new doggie door that only Orio uses at the moment and June hasn't figured out how to use it yet. Well, she figured it out this morning and entered the house before I knew anything... Joni was standing by the door and I thought she would attack her, but she greeted her with a wagging tail!

I couldn't believe it - they greeted each other in a very friendly way and then played for a while. No growls, no stares, no tension, nothing. Tonight, we're walking together to cement their newfound friendship and hopefully our troubles are over!

I can't explain the relief and utter joy that I felt when they greeted each other like friends who haven't seen each other in years. I thought I was going to have to rehome one of them... I'm so happy at the moment that I could cry!

[jfalz73]

Originally Posted by Marilize

We had a breakthrough this morning! I've been crating and rotating since the weekend and I've been walking with them separately every day. So, this morning I put June outside to potty while Joni was inside. We have a new doggie door that only Orio uses at the moment and June hasn't figured out how to use it yet. Well, she figured it out this morning and entered the house before I knew anything... Joni was standing by the door and I thought she would attack her, but she greeted her with a wagging tail!

I couldn't believe it - they greeted each other in a very friendly way and then played for a while. No growls, no stares, no tension, nothing. Tonight, we're walking together to cement their newfound friendship and hopefully our troubles are over!

I can't explain the relief and utter joy that I felt when they greeted each other like friends who haven't seen each other in years. I thought I was going to have to rehome one of them... I'm so happy at the moment that I could cry!

That's wonderful news! I hope it continues!

[Marilize]

Originally Posted by jfalz73

That's wonderful news! I hope it continues!

Thanks. Unfortunately it didn't. I thought things were much better until June accidentally bit me when my hand was between her and Joni last night. She drew blood and it hurt like hell - she only let go after I yelled and she realised it was my hand. I shudder to think that she tries to bite Joni like that. I've never seen nicks or cuts on Joni, so I think June just bites her coat most of the time, but still. I feel like it's a matter of time until she draws Joni's blood.

I think I'm going to have to find June a new home, even if it's only temporary until things calm down. I've invested so much in her and I love her dearly, but I'm starting to believe that she needs a home where she is a pampered lap dog. This is the hardest decision I've ever had to make for my home and my dogs and I wouldn't rehome her if I didn't firmly believe that it's the best thing for her. I'd never rehome her unless I'm absolutely sure that she'll be pampered and taken great care of for the rest of her life.

Any advice or words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

[concretegurl]

Have you tried kenneling them separately but side by side.

Allowing them to pose posture growl but no physical contact.


Its also a last resort but soft muzzles and being supervised closely forcing them to get the ranking over with...without ability to bite-contraversial &the last resort

I really feel this is unfortunately age appropriate pack order establishment.

It sucks, but it's almost natural.

Safety first, I'm sorry you and they are foing through this and hope another option is avalible.

[concretegurl]

Muzzles for Dogs - Happy Muzzle, Pro-Guard Softie Dog Muzzle, Best Fit Dog Mesh Muzzle, Kwik Klip Adjustable Nylon Muzzle, No Bite Muzzle,

[Marilize]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Have you tried kenneling them separately but side by side.

Allowing them to pose posture growl but no physical contact.


Its also a last resort but soft muzzles and being supervised closely forcing them to get the ranking over with...without ability to bite-contraversial &the last resort

I really feel this is unfortunately age appropriate pack order establishment.

It sucks, but it's almost natural.

Safety first, I'm sorry you and they are foing through this and hope another option is avalible.

Thanks a lot for the advice. I've tried kenneling them separately, but side-by-side and I kept them apart for weeks, rotating them every couple of hours. I also walked them together daily and I spent time with each one separately. They were better for a while, but they still squabble almost daily. As soon as June sees Joni, her tail goes into rattlesnake position, her back goes stiff and she stares at Joni until she lunges at her to attack, even while Joni is crated.

It's now gotten to the point where Joni cowers in corners and is afraid to exit her crate for fear of attack. It's not fair to her to live under constant attack.

Plus, Joni might be pregnant. She's my breeding girl* and she's due around 21 January if she took the breeding. I'm incredibly scared that June will hurt Joni and the puppies.

*Breeding disclaimer: I have done my research, I have a great mentor and my dogs are health tested and show quality. I'm not a willy-nilly breeder.

[gracielove]

I had an issue with a couple of Shih Tzu's several years back. When my male Shih Tzu was about 6 years old we were given a beautiful female Shih Tzu puppy. She was a sweet little dog and loved people but she was an alpha for sure. She would dominate my male to the point where he became depressed and could not even eat without her permission. She would eat her food and his if I did not feed them in different rooms. When I would come home and they came to meet me the female would bite at him and block him from getting to me. I tried all kinds of training techniques but the fact was she was an aggressive female even though she was spayed.

After a year of dealing with the problem and seeing that my male was really suffering emotionally I gave her to my mom. She was an only dog at my mom's house and just loved it. She lived a wonderful pampered life there and I never regretted having her there. My male became the happy little guy he was before she came.

There are some dominance issues you can control with crating or other techniques but if it is a real personality issue you are going to find yourself having to continually keep them away from each other. I did not want to live with that kind of stress on me or the dogs. I am not a breeder and I suppose breeders have to deal with these types of issues in order to continue their program. I just could not have that kind of stress in my home on a continual basis. Separately they were both wonderful dogs. They just could not live together in peace. They are animals and there are things going on that sometimes humans do not understand.

[Marilize]

Thanks for the advice. I've decided to rehome June and I posted some ads online today. After hours of correspondence with various interested parties, my mom phones, asks why I'm upset and says they'll take her. They already have four Yorkies, but like her fiance said "What's one more?" This way I don't have to say goodbye and I'll be able to see her whenever I go to visit. She's going home with them after their wedding next weekend. I couldn't be happier with how things have turned out.