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Old 07-25-2012, 03:47 AM   #1
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Default APHIS - new Regulation Are you Aware?

I posted almost one month ago, about a proposed new Federal Regulation.

My posts were in the Animal Protection and Welfare and in the Breeders section.

I was asked to link this in the General Forum as well.

Here is the link to what I posted:
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/ani...egulation.html

If you go there you will links that will take you to the AKC petition, a link which will connect you directly to APSHIS to submit your comment personally, the deadline has been extended till August 2012.

The link below is yet another petition, but I thought you (the general pet owning public, might find illuminative what the "small hobby breeders are saying about this bill."

https://www.change.org/petitions/u-s...eders-and-more

For many folks the issues might seem complex, difficult to understand. Quite simply what is at risk, is the ability of the buying public to be able to purchase a well bred and home raised puppy.

I urge you to take some time to read the regulation, to read what others are saying about it, and also to take the time to read Losey's comment on this "proposed" new regulation. The link to Losey's comment is contained
with-in the thread in the Animal Protection and Welfare.

We need more people to make comments to APHIS - we the general public have a huge voice; if only we would speak up and out.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:15 AM   #2
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I posted on the other thread, but I want to post here too. Please read this bill before you believe what is being written about it. This has happened so many times, and the bill is nothing like people are saying. I've been interested in getting this legislation passed. Gail do you understand that right now if you sell directly to the public or over the internet you need no license, no matter how many dogs you sell? The worst puppy mills are unlicensed facilities. People here are always saying stay away from USDA licensed kennels, they are puppy mills, but they are loads better than the places that sell over the internet. I don’t buy the statement that even if you sell one dog this will affect you. Have you read the actual bill instead of a third party statement about the bill? This will give the USDA the same authoritiy as when breeders sold to pet stores. Commercial breeders have been known to target small breeders and fool them into helping them fight their fight. The site that you linked doesn’t sound like an independent site that explains the bill, it sounds like it’s just propaganda for the commercial lobby.

Here’s what the ASPCA says about the bill. USDA Moving to Regulate Internet Sales-Based Puppy Mills
May 11, 2012
Quote:
On Thursday, May 10, the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s (USDA) Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) announced its intention to release proposed regulatory language to close a loophole that has “threatened the health and humane treatment of pets sold sight unseen over the Internet and via phone- and mail-based businesses.” Due to the wording of the federal Animal Welfare Act—passed 40 years ago, before existence of the Internet—a large (and growing) population of commercial breeders has been able to escape licensing and regulation. Currently, only breeders who sell dogs to pet stores or to puppy brokers are required to be licensed and inspected by the USDA.The ASPCA applauds the federal government’s acknowledgement that a huge community of puppy breeders in this country desperately requires regulation. “No one is checking up on these facilities now,” says Cori Menkin, Senior Director of the ASPCA’s Puppy Mills Campaign. “Without a legal authority, federal inspectors cannot inspect these breeders. As the ASPCA has seen firsthand, the photos of happy, healthy puppies posted on a breeder’s website often grossly misrepresent what conditions are really like for these puppies and their parents.”
ASPCA policy experts are standing ready to review APHIS’s proposed rule—once our analysis is complete, we will share our position and comments with our supporters and request that they take action by contacting the USDA during its 60-day comment period.
We look forward to working with APHIS to ensure that the final rule is both enforceable and effective. Please stay tuned for our forthcoming Advocacy Alert on this issue and join the ASPCA Advocacy Brigade ASPCA | USDA Moving to Regulate Internet Sales-Based Puppy Mills
If one of you breeders are worried about not passing a USDA tests, you need to read more about their requirements, their minimum requirements are very lax. Kennels need to be a certain minimum size with no rusty prods poking through and things like that. Don't let commercial breeders scare you into fighting their fights.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:47 AM   #3
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Default sorry Gemy, I have little energy with which to respond--

I do appreciate your efforts, though.
Personally, I don't sell my puppies sight unseen though I don't want to totally rule out the possibility. I will not, however, do it at the cost of subjecting my home to another invasion, disguised as inspection, by untrained, petty tyrants who don't even know themselves what they're enforcing. I'll miss being able to purchase fine dogs sight unseen from reputable breeders I've enjoyed doing business with who are too far away for me to visit in person, as surely many of them will also not want to be subjected to yet more red tape, fees, licensing, and scrutiny.
Do read the legislation as it DOES affect many hobby breeders.
Do keep an eye on how your government is barging into your homes.
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:11 AM   #4
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Interesting situation...not sure what to think
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:15 AM   #5
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[QUOTE=Nancy1999;3980923]I posted on the other thread, but I want to post here too. Please read this bill before you believe what is being written about it. This has happened so many times, and the bill is nothing like people are saying. I've been interested in getting this legislation passed. (1) Gail do you understand that right now if you sell directly to the public or over the internet you need no license, no matter how many dogs you sell? The worst puppy mills are unlicensed facilities. People here are always saying stay away from USDA licensed kennels, they are puppy mills, but they are loads better than the places that sell over the internet. (4) I don’t buy the statement that even if you sell one dog this will affect you. (2)Have you read the actual bill instead of a third party statement about the bill? This will give the USDA the same authoritiy as when breeders sold to pet stores. Commercial breeders have been known to target small breeders and fool them into helping them fight their fight. (3) The site that you linked doesn’t sound like an independent site that explains the bill, it sounds like it’s just propaganda for the commercial lobby.

1) I do

2) I have

3) Don't know why you say that. To the best of my knowledge it is not run by a commercial lobby. If I find out that it is. I will rescind my recommendation to read this site.


4) From the Bill
II. Summary of Major Provisions
‘‘Retail pet stores’’ are not required to

obtain a license under the AWA or

comply with the AWA regulations and

standards. Currently, anyone selling, at

retail, the following animals for use as

pets are considered retail pet stores:

Dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs,

hamsters, gerbils, rats, mice, gophers,

chinchilla, domestic ferrets, domestic

farm animals, birds, and cold-blooded

species.

This proposed rule would rescind the

‘‘retail pet store’’ status of anyone

selling, at retail for use as pets, the

animals listed above to buyers who do

not physically enter his or her place of

business or residence in order to

personally observe the animals available

for sale prior to purchase and/or to take

custody of the animals after purchase.

Unless otherwise exempt under the

regulations, these entities would be

required to obtain a license from APHIS

and would become subject to the

requirements of the AWA, which

include identification of animals and

recordkeeping requirements, as well as

the following standards: Facilities and

operations (including space, structure

and construction, waste disposal,

heating, ventilation, lighting, and

interior surface requirements for indoor

and outdoor primary enclosures and

housing facilities); animal health and

husbandry (including requirements for

veterinary care, sanitation and feeding,

watering, and separation of animals);

and transportation (including

specifications for primary enclosures,

primary conveyances, terminal

facilities, and feeding, watering, care,

and handling of animals in transit).
]

Please see highlighted items


Now Nancy, I was alerted to this "new regulation" by three very reputable Rare Breeders. Asking for my help if after review of the legislation I thought that either it was a) a clear and present danger to hobby breeders b) ineffective c) cost prohibitive and d) would actually do one whit to curb actual puppy mills.

A while ago I read the requirements for Kennels, and I was appalled. First and foremost in my mind, VERY FEW PUPPIES IF ANY, should be raised outside in kennels. It is poppycock. Dogs are in the main part destined to live in residential homes, and that is exactly where they should be brought up.

I would like to see the demise of ALL COMMERCIAL KENNELS and PUPPY MILLS and BYBERS. But then where would we be? Empty rescues, shelters? Ummmm. I wonder.

Now I have a question for you; have you read the Losey article? It is linked in the Animal Protection and Welfare thread.

I am going to ask a very basic question akin to ; The Emperor's New Clothes (remember that story), why if you want to STOP internet selling of puppies from suspected Puppy Mills, are you NOT looking at an Internet solution?

IS the answer this Regulation , OR is it more importantly, EDUCATION. Education of the buying public.

Now back to this proposed regulation. Four Breeding Bitches? I asked on my comment to them What is the Definiton of a breeding Bitch? Oh wow, just an unspayed female? How damaging. There are females we will retire from breeding, and NOT SPAY due to health risks surmounting any benefit. There are puppy females who are too young for breeding, too young for placement. In any given month we may have a whole lot more than 4 unspayed Bitches in the house. So what do you want me the hobby breeder to do with my beautiful 5 yr old bitch who I've retired from breeding, can't spay but want to keep her in the only home she has ever known? Remember I will work with my breed for their lifetime. I might still be working with her for her Utility Title or Rescue work.

With the Rare breeds and other breeds I know for sure, but particularly the RAre Breeds we network constantly over the internet. Post pics, crow and brag about our accomplishments, show litters, house, training areas, meet each other at shows. Remember many of us may travel 1000 miles or so to get to a show. Oftentimes when at shows, we will purchase a puppy from each other. We have already done the pedigree research, and in this environment, we get to see, to feel, to touch, to watch the movement of the puppy we are interested in. Or we are examining the studs, and bitches that do come to the Nationals or other big shows. The maybe over the phone or internet we arrange the purchase of same. I don't want my ability to purchase a top quality dog to be decimated by this "ruling". We are few enough breeders in North America as is!.

I respect your opinion Nancy, as I hope you do mine;maybe we see things through different lenses.







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Old 07-25-2012, 10:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicgenie View Post
I do appreciate your efforts, though.
Personally, I don't sell my puppies sight unseen though I don't want to totally rule out the possibility. I will not, however, do it at the cost of subjecting my home to another invasion, disguised as inspection, by untrained, petty tyrants who don't even know themselves what they're enforcing. I'll miss being able to purchase fine dogs sight unseen from reputable breeders I've enjoyed doing business with who are too far away for me to visit in person, as surely many of them will also not want to be subjected to yet more red tape, fees, licensing, and scrutiny.
Do read the legislation as it DOES affect many hobby breeders.
Do keep an eye on how your government is barging into your homes.

This terrifies the daylights out of me. Does this bring to mind "gestapo" or "Schutzstaffel"? I am still transfixed, stupefied, amazed that this happened to you, a respected breeder.....so scary!!!!!!!
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:28 PM   #7
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[QUOTE=Nancy1999;3980923]I posted on the other thread, but I want to post here too. Please read this bill before you believe what is being written about it. This has happened so many times, and the bill is nothing like people are saying. I've been interested in getting this legislation passed. Gail do you understand that right now if you sell directly to the public or over the internet you need no license, no matter how many dogs you sell? The worst puppy mills are unlicensed facilities. People here are always saying stay away from USDA licensed kennels, they are puppy mills, but they are loads better than the places that sell over the internet. I don’t buy the statement that even if you sell one dog this will affect you. Have you read the actual bill instead of a third party statement about the bill? This will give the USDA the same authoritiy as when breeders sold to pet stores. Commercial breeders have been known to target small breeders and fool them into helping them fight their fight. The site that you linked doesn’t sound like an independent site that explains the bill, it sounds like it’s just propaganda for the commercial lobby.

Here’s what the ASPCA says about the bill. USDA Moving to Regulate Internet Sales-Based Puppy Mills
May 11, 2012


If one of you breeders are worried about not passing a USDA tests, you need to read more about their requirements, their minimum requirements are very lax. Kennels need to be a certain minimum size with no rusty prods poking through and things like that. Don't let

Please post the link for USDA tests. Sadly my internet skills have gone to their website and have been unable to find those requirement on a simple search for them
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:49 PM   #8
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Where did you read the term 4 breeding bitches? If it's from the actual bill the definition of a breeding bitch should be given. If it's from another site, the number may be wrong.[/QUOTE]


Here you go; just one mention of it in The Regulation

Finally, as noted previously, we are

proposing to amend § 2.1(a)(3)(iii) to

increase from three to four the number

of breeding female dogs, cats, and/or

small exotic or wild mammals that a

person may maintain on his or her

premises and be exempt from licensing

and inspection requirements.
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Old 07-25-2012, 01:08 PM   #9
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Bump for all
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caw View Post
Interesting situation...not sure what to think
Maybe this will answer your questions:


Quote:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publicatio...l_pets_faq.pdf

Questions and
Answers:
Proposed Rule –
Retail Pet Sales
Q. What is APHIS proposing?
A. APHIS is proposing to revise its definition of
“retail pet store” to close a loophole that has in
some cases threatened the health of pets sold
sight unseen over the Internet and via phone- and
mail-based businesses. Under the current definition
of “retail pet store,” which was developed over 40
years ago and predates the Internet, some breeders
selling pets are taking advantage of a loophole that
improperly exempts them from meeting the basic
requirements of the Animal Welfare Act (AWA). The
proposed rule will close this loophole, ensuring that
animals sold over the Internet and via phone- and
mail-based businesses are better monitored for their
overall health and humane treatment.
The proposal will restore the definition to its
original intent so that it limits the retail pet store
exemption to only those places of business and
residence:
that buyers physically enter to observe the
animals available for sale prior to purchase and/
or to take custody of the animals after purchase,
and
• where only the following animals are sold or
offered for sale at retail for use as pets: Dogs,
cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, gerbils,
rats, mice, gophers, chinchilla, domestic ferrets,
domestic farm animals, birds, and coldblooded
species.
APHIS is also proposing to increase the number
of breeding females from three to four that small
hobby breeders of dogs, cats, and small exotic or
wild mammals can own and still be exempt from
licensing requirements. To meet the exemption
requirements, these breeders can only sell the
offspring of the breeding females that were born and
raised on their premises, and sold for only pets or
exhibition.
Q. Why does APHIS want to change this rule?
A. This proposed rule is intended to help ensure the
health and well-being of animals sold at retail for use
as pets. The current definition of “retail pet store” was
written in the 1970s to exempt from federal regulation
traditional pet stores and other facilities whose
animals are subject to a certain degree of oversight
from customers who enter a place of business or
residence to observe the animals available for sale
prior to purchase or to take custody of the animals
after purchase.
Today, the Internet allows retailers to sell animals
directly to the public sight-unseen. Because the
current definition is broadly defined, those retailers
continue to qualify for exemption, even though they
don’t meet the intent of the definition. As a result,
some buyers have received animals with health
issues. APHIS wants to restore the original intent
of the AWA and modernize its regulations to reflect
today’s business practices.
The change to the licensing exemption for small
hobby breeders of dogs, cats, and small exotic or
wild mammals will increase the number of breeding
females from three to four. This will allow us to focus
more on the facilities that present the greatest risk of
noncompliance with the regulations.
Q. How will this affect retail pet stores?
A. This proposed rule would not affect traditional
retail pet stores, breeders, and other dealers
whose buyers physically enter a place of business
or residence to observe the animals available for
sale prior to purchase and/or to take custody of the
animals after purchase. They will continue to be
exempt from licensing and inspection under the AWA.
However, they will still be subject to any applicable
individual state and county regulations.
Q. How will this affect Internet, phone- and mail
order retailers?
A. The proposal will affect these retailers if they
currently sell their pet animals to buyers sight-unseen.
Pet animal retailers will have a choice. They can
either sell their animals to buyers who physically
enter a place of business or residence to observe
the animals available for sale prior to purchase or to
take custody of the animals after purchase, or they
can obtain a license under the AWA and allow APHIS
inspectors to inspect their facility.
Q. How will this affect retailers who sell their
animals to buyers in face-to-face transactions at a
location other than their own premises?
A. The proposed rule is designed to close a loophole
in the current regulations that allows pet animals to be
sold sight-unseen, without any oversight by the public
or APHIS. Pet animal retailers who sell their animals
to their customers in face-to-face transactions at a
location other than their own premises are subject to
some degree of public oversight and therefore are not
the focus of this proposed rule and would not need to
obtain a license.
Q. How would this proposal affect rescue groups
that participate in off-site adoption events?
A. As mentioned above, persons who engage in
face-to-face transactions at a location other than their
premises, which include off-site adoption events,
are subject to some degree of public oversight and
therefore are not the focus of this proposed rule and
would not need to obtain a license.
Q. What does this mean for State, county, or city
owned and operated pounds and shelters, as well
as humane societies and other organizations that
contract with those jurisdictions?
A. This proposed rule would have no effect on State,
county, or city owned and operated pounds and
shelters, or humane societies and other organizations
that contract with those jurisdictions. These public
agencies are exempt from regulation under the AWA.
Q. How will the proposed rule affect retail breeders
who sell their dogs for use as working dogs?
A. The proposed rule would not change current
AWA requirements for retail breeders of working
dogs. Retail breeders who sell their dogs only for use
as working dogs are not required to obtain an AWA
license.
Q. What will this mean for consumers?
A. The changes will help ensure the welfare of
animals sold to consumers through retail channels.
Under the proposed rule, no dog or other pet animal
will be sold at retail without either public or APHIS
oversight, except those exempt from licensing and/or
not otherwise regulated under the AWA.
Q. Why are you proposing to raise the threshold of
breeding females from three to four?
A. Under the current AWA regulations, breeders who
own three or fewer breeding females (dogs, cats, or
small exotic or wild mammals) are considered hobby
breeders and exempt from APHIS oversight. Based
on a recent review of compliance among currently
regulated facilities, we believe that a facility that
maintains four breeding females, one more than the
current limit of three, can be considered a low-risk
facility and exempt from regulation even if they sell
their animals sight-unseen. This would allow us to
continue to concentrate our regulatory resources
on those facilities that present the greatest risk of
noncompliance and thereby ensure the welfare of
animals.
Q. How will the proposed four breeding female
rule apply to breeders with a partial ownership
interest in a number of breeding animals? Would
they be considered as “acting in concert” with
their partners for purposes of this exemption?
A. The restriction on individuals “acting in concert”
in the current and proposed AWA regulations is
designed to prevent a loophole in the regulations. In
the past, some individuals have contended they were
not required to have a license even when they kept
more than three breeding females (dogs, cats, or small
exotic or wild mammals) on the same premises as long
as no single member of the household owned more
than three. However, when several members of the
same household (or other persons acting in concert)
maintain breeding females on the same premises
such that the number of breeding females in total is
more than three (or four under the proposed rule), the
activities are no longer exempt and the dealers need to
be licensed.
Continued:
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:32 AM   #11
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Continued from above:

Quote:
Q. What will this mean for dealers of domestic
farm animals and coldblooded species?
A. This proposal will have no substantive effect on
APHIS’ regulation of domestic farm animals and
coldblooded species. Normal farm-type operations
that raise, or buy and sell, animals only for food and
fiber, and businesses that use only fish and other
coldblooded animals are excluded from the definition
of “animal” in the AWA and, therefore, are categorically
exempt by law from coverage.
Q. What will this mean for dealers of rabbits who
sell their animals for use as food or fiber?
A. This proposed rule would not change APHIS’
regulation of dealers who sell rabbits or other animals
for use as food or fiber. As mentioned above, anyone
selling any animals only for food or fiber are exempt
under the AWA.
Q. If this proposal is adopted, would breeders who
come under regulation and allow their dogs to
roam free in their homes have to put their animals
in a kennel?
A. No. The AWA regulations define a primary
enclosure broadly to mean any structure or device
used to restrict an animal or animals to a limited
amount of space. As such, a home can be considered
a dog’s primary enclosure. If a room of a house is used
as a dog’s primary enclosure (e.g., a whelping room or
nursery), APHIS will apply the applicable regulations
and standards to the room.
If, however, a dog breeder allows their dogs to have
free run of the entire house, APHIS will assess whether
the home can house animals within the health and
humane standards contemplated by the AWA. If the
breeder has a kennel or cages that the dogs can stay
in inside the home that meet AWA standards, we would
consider that compliance with the primary enclosure
requirements has been achieved.
Q. What is the Animal Welfare Act (AWA)?
A. The AWA sets standards for humane care and
treatment that must be provided for certain animals
that are bred for commercial sale; exhibited to the
public; used in biomedical research; or transported
commercially. The AWA does not apply to cold-blooded
animals or agricultural animals used for food or fiber.
Individuals and entities licensed under the AWA must
provide their animals with adequate housing, sanitation,
nutrition, water and veterinary care. They must
also protect the animals from extreme weather and
temperatures.
Q. What does a proposed rule mean?
A. APHIS has issued this proposed rule as part of its
rulemaking process. It is just a proposal, issued for
public review and comment. It has no immediate effect
on potentially regulated facilities.
Q. What is the next step in the rulemaking process?
A. The original 60-day comment period for the proposed
rule was extended for an additional 30 days and will
close on August 15, 2012. Once the comment period
closes, APHIS will consider all comments received and,
if warranted, will revise the rule in response to those
comments.
Q. How can I comment on this proposal?
A. To comment on this proposal, you can submit your
comments one of two ways:
• Visit the Federal eRulemaking Portal at
Regulations.gov
APHIS-2011-0003
• Mail your comments to: Docket No. APHIS-2011-
0003, Regulatory Analysis and Development PPD
APHIS, Station 3A-03.8, 4700 River Road Unit 118,
Riverdale, MD, 20737-1238.
This will not affect a breeder who sells their dog from their home, only those who sell their dogs sight unseen over the internet.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:06 AM   #12
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Sounds good and proper to me, Nancy.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:10 AM   #13
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What does "sight unseen" mean I'd like to understand that a little more, I get the Internet sales and all would this also mean that breeders can no longer ship their puppies to their new owners?
Just wondering
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkielover916 View Post
What does "sight unseen" mean I'd like to understand that a little more, I get the Internet sales and all would this also mean that breeders can no longer ship their puppies to their new owners?
Just wondering
Well breeders should still be able to ship puppies to new owners. This regulation is looking at requiring licensing for breeders who have more than four intact bitches, and wish to sell their puppies on the internet to people who can not travel to their homes to physcially see the puppies.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gemy View Post
Well breeders should still be able to ship puppies to new owners. This regulation is looking at requiring licensing for breeders who have more than four intact bitches, and wish to sell their puppies on the internet to people who can not travel to their homes to physcially see the puppies.
Oh....and one more little tiny thing....FYI.....the original number of bitches was 12, then it was revised to 10, then it was revised down to 7, then revised to 3....then they re-thought that maybe they went a little tooooo far, so they went up to 4 bitches. Gosh.......wonder how long it is going to take them to go down to "any bitches at all".....??? Here in Texas, the House just passed a bill that limits breeding bitches down to 7....the activist were overheard saying "next time, we will come back and get it lowered to 3, and then, we will go down from there!" Slow and steady, whittling a little away at a time, until you have nothing left......

Last edited by Yorkiemom1; 07-28-2012 at 04:52 PM.
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