Not sure what to do about Macie's breeder... - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

spruitt7 · 04-20-2012, 11:23 AM

My gut is telling me not to do it, so Im going to go with that.

I did email her and ask about a refund or a partial refund. I explained to her that Macie was too small for my liking and her sister is just as small.

Im waiting for a reply, but Im not holding my breath.

DBlain · 04-20-2012, 11:24 AM

First off I am so sorry for your loss I am assuming you have and are still having a rough time, so take a breath and do what you are doing seek advice and think about it for a while. I don't believe small claims court cost that much, just perhaps filing fees, I believe it is set up for situations like this where the attorney fees would outweigh the fees awarded. Regardless if you want to pursue it, I would still explore it because you might be able to use it as a negotiation tool later on.

If the sister is healthy the big decision to me would be if you want a puppy that will weigh 3 lbs or less. If your lifestyle and homelife fits with a three pound dog then you could consider that option but if it does not I would look to a breeder that breeds to standard. I am wondering why she has not sold the sister, do you know.

Since she is willing to give you the sister or the June puppy I would make a suggestion to the breeder and say Look I don't want the sister and I can imagine you can understand all the reasons why that would be hard for me to deal with. I also don't think I am ready for the demands of a puppy, but since you would lose the sale money by giving me the puppy instead of to the buyer I would prefer you sell the puppy and give me that money." By doing this it's really a wash for the breeder. You also might find it easier to have someone else do the negotiations for you. I know what it is like when you are emotionally invested and have probably gotten to know the breeder so it much harder to be strong and forceful with her. Also it is sometime easier to do this in writing, this way you can get your point across before she butts in with her point and before you know it you are off the track of what you were going to say.

2. Ask her to sell the sister and give you the money from that sale or
3. Ask her to sell one of the June puppies and give you

spruitt7 · 04-20-2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

The contract was written to protect the breeder not you, a judge knows this and takes that into account. She has to live up to the terms of the contract more than you do. If the dog had died of a common ailment, it wouldn't be as fearful getting another dog from this breeder, but since the dog died from undeveloped organs, I think a judge would understand why you would be leery to receive another from the same breeder. Also, you could print out material from the YTCA, which is the mother club, which says that breeders shouldn't be breeding a dog under 5 pounds. Is this the same breeder you asked about in another thread?

Thanks for the information. Also, no she is a different breeder. I've never stated Macie's breeder information on this site. I probably will eventually post a review once this situation is over.

Nancy1999 · 04-20-2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spruitt7

Thanks for the information. Also, no she is a different breeder. I've never stated Macie's breeder information on this site. I probably will eventually post a review once this situation is over.

Again, I want to say how badly I feel for you. I had a dog with a genetic problem who died at an early age, and it left a lifetime mark on me, and it's the reason I'm such an extreme advocate for finding the best breeder who will sell to you. Yes, even great breeders can have sick dogs, but you are increasing your chances of having a healthy dog when you go to a good breeder.

DBlain · 04-20-2012, 11:39 AM

I meant to delete those last two line in my post.
The problem with these health guarantees is all they do is offer a new puppy, well most people don't want another dog from a breeder that seels you one that does not have good health. It's not like a car where if a part breaks while it is under warranty you get an exact duplicate. This is a living creature, no two animals are a like you should not have to have one forced down your throat you should be able to pick a puppy that is right for you. I doubt most breeder contracts would hold up in a court of law anyway.

If you want any help with writing letters or negotiations I will help if I can, I normally am pretty good at convicing someone to see it my way.

tinalove · 04-20-2012, 11:42 AM

I am sorry for your lost. I can understand your wanting another furbaby. Just think about it and make the best decision that you can. We all have different opinions but you ultimately have to live with your decision. Just know we are here for you whatever you decide. I have a feeling you already know in your heart what you want to do.

gemy · 04-20-2012, 11:44 AM

Spruitt I am just reading this thread. First of all I'm so very sorry you lost your pup.

For me the decision not to get another dog from this breeder would be a whole lot of emotions. I just could not do it, for a whole lot of reasons

But I hope in future you would not enter into a contract with any breeder, that only offered a replacement puppy. That is not a good for the buyer contract at all.

Nancy1999 · 04-20-2012, 11:45 AM

I hope you do a review on this breeder.

Deadbug · 04-20-2012, 11:47 AM

I have a tiny dog. You don't want one. You should never want one if you do any level of research.

It was a fluke that mine came out this tiny because her parents were normal size. She charted out to be around 5lbs but stopped growing at 2.5. My breeder wasn't going to adopt her out to anyone because she was concerned about her health. She specifically adopted her to me because she knew I'd not only love her dearly, but be able to manage the financial aspect of anything that would come up. She had turned quite a few people down to adopt her because she doesn't breed for tinies. I was well informed of the risks before I agreed to take her. Of course, it helps that my breeder and I are friends. She also knew me well enough to know there's no way I'd ever consider breeding her. In fact, I don't even think I have her AKC papers anymore. I never sent them in anyway.

So far, she's been fairly healthy with the exception of a few upset tummies that lead us to the vet for supportive care. But I consider myself lucky. I also don't skimp on checkups and tests to keep checking. Things could easily pop up later and if they do, I'm somewhat prepared for that. Emotionally, I don't think I could ever prepare for it. However, I can also take comfort in knowing I've given her the best life a dog could possibly have.

spruitt7 · 04-20-2012, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemy

Spruitt I am just reading this thread. First of all I'm so very sorry you lost your pup.

For me the decision not to get another dog from this breeder would be a whole lot of emotions. I just could not do it, for a whole lot of reasons

But I hope in future you would not enter into a contract with any breeder, that only offered a replacement puppy. That is not a good for the buyer contract at all.

Dont most breeders state that they will "replace the puppy"

msyorktown · 04-20-2012, 11:56 AM

I am sooo sorry for your loss. Personally I would not want another dog from this breeder. I got my two from a byb...fortunatly for me they are healthy...I am looking to add another furbaby to my crew..she has told me she has a litter due soon...however thanks to YT i know not to take that chance again, i will look eleswhere. Go with your gut and do what is best for you...your heart will never steer you wrong. Please keep us posted on what you decide.Good luck to you in whatever you decide, just know my heart goes out to you and prayers for you and Macy.
Jacqui

Joyce Adams · 04-20-2012, 12:06 PM

I'm sorry that you have lost your baby and I have no idea what I would do in the same situation. I'm sure you are still grieving and wanting a puppy to raise and love. I just pray to give you strength to do what is best for you, you only have to make yourself happy. Take care...(((HUGS)))

nanahas3 · 04-20-2012, 12:37 PM

I am so sorry for your loss. Maybe the breeder would let you have your vet check the new baby and assure you if she is healthy.

maggiefromnj · 04-20-2012, 12:38 PM

I would try to get $ refunded, then you could choose to get another dog later, or not.

If you are sure you want one, SOON, then I would opt for the other litter, not the sister. Hopefully the pups in June won't be so tiny.

I think the sister would never measure up in your eyes. You'd look at her and think, Macie didn't do that, or Macie did this. You'd be reminded too much of her. Also, she is very small.

Please do get SOMETHING in writing before your year is up. Verbal agreements never stand up and you don't want the breeder saying it's too late. Read your contract carefully and make sure it doesn't mention "refund" anywhere. Also, what about reimbursement for vet bills?

spruitt7 · 04-20-2012, 12:44 PM

This is her first email to me:

Stephanie,

Just so you know, David is my son, He had purchased Jesse & Cali from me for family Pets, he owns Jesse & Cali. I will tell you they were both born in my home, and from healthy parents and healthy grandparents etc. I know the linage well. The Yorkies are pets first, but are allowed to breed on occasion. I never breed my females every cycle and neither will David. So Cali was skipped about two months ago. So she will not be in heat again for 6 months. Then it takes 63 days for dropping the litter. Then it takes 8 to 12 weeks for them to be ready.
My son David has talked with his Vet and showed him all the paper work. Dr Moony is aware of the good linage & history of healthy pups for years. He seems to think that this was caused by something she ate & or a birth defect or both. He also explained a birth defect can happen to the smallest of litter, mostly when they was the first to drop from the litter. He also claims this can happen to anyone that breeds over time, even though they have had healthy pups. It may never occur again. Even though vets suspect Liver shunt because of condition, he said a Liver shunt is not conclusive. It was obvious that Macie had Kidney Stones. All her litter mates are fine. The Vet assured David that a birth defect will happen to any breeder that breeds long enough... He is confident that Jesse & Cali are fine to breed. I am just heart broken that this happened to Macie, our last puppy we sold.
Your puppy will be replaced. You will only be responsible for the shipping of puppy as contract states.

Option #1 - Ella - Ella is Macie's litter mate - so she is the age of Macie.. She just got fixed on Tuesday - and Dr Moony ran a full blood panel on her, so she has been tested. - Ella weighs 2.5 pounds - Ella & her name is registered, but AKC allows for new owners to change name. I am sure they charge something for the change of name, but I have never changed one myself and this is a recent option that they made available.

Option #2 - Wait for David's Jesse & Cali next litter - which is still approx 8 months away before the dropping the litter. - Last litter was 3 girls & 2 boys.

Option #3 - Maryann's Mick & Esme - Which is due to drop drop puppies the later part of June. - I do not know a lot about Maryann's Esme - Jesse sired a litter with her that was adorable 3 girls & 2 boys. I only had contact with Becky Howard that purchased David's pick of the litter Little Clio, she had purchased two other yorkies Kyra & Cali (another Cali... seems to be a popular name).. from me in the past. When grown Becky's Clio finally reached 4 pound she is a lover girl from what Becky says, where Cali is more mischievous. Mick & Esme has had a litter together before. I think 1 girl & 3 3oys.

This is a list of first available puppies. I may also have another available from Patti, but I still have to check on that status, I am actually waiting to hear from Patti: I have retired from breeding due to age & health issues. However, I have pick of a few litters from other people. You will have a few months left on Macie's contract, that will be forwarded to your choice of an available puppy. I will have a panel run on any puppy available that you choose, like Ella just had. I would like to state, that I am requesting you to feed the Hill's Science Diet Small bites (dry pebbles) for toy breed for the remainder of the contract that is left.

Another thing is on new litters upcoming you can not guarantee size etc. - We will not know until the drop if they are male or female. Sometimes litters occasionally drop all boys or all girls. If on the occasion of an all boy litter we would have to wait until the next available litter.

Let me know which you would like: I have been trying to get your options to you as soon as possible. Because of our commitment next week where I will not be available.

This is her second email when I told her I was scared and wanted a refund:

Stephanie,

Sorry I do not do refunds. Only replacement of a puppy. That is explain in the contract. I do not replace puppies because they were to small. A person can not guarantee a size of a puppy.

Just because something happens to one does not mean, that any others are that way or will be that way. All my puppies are with AKC and can be tracked and verified that they are healthy. Except for Macie. I believe any Vet would tell you the same as Dr Moony told David. So you can not be scared of that, because that would stop you from buying from any breeder, because this could happen to anyone.. Macie is the first offspring to ever be afflicted.

The only time after talking with other breeders, that I purchased a puppy back was when a women found out she was dying with cancer and couldn't she was not going to be able to care for him. By standards of other breeders, I did a buy back on him for 1/2 the purchased price.
I actually wish I knew when Macie first got sick so our Vets could have been monitoring this from day one. Then I could have had a choice to come and get her before she was put down and do try more to do more help her.

So exactly what are wanting me to do?

04-20-2012, 11:24 AM	#17
DBlain Donating YT Addict Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Oakland County MI Posts: 6,190	First off I am so sorry for your loss I am assuming you have and are still having a rough time, so take a breath and do what you are doing seek advice and think about it for a while. I don't believe small claims court cost that much, just perhaps filing fees, I believe it is set up for situations like this where the attorney fees would outweigh the fees awarded. Regardless if you want to pursue it, I would still explore it because you might be able to use it as a negotiation tool later on. If the sister is healthy the big decision to me would be if you want a puppy that will weigh 3 lbs or less. If your lifestyle and homelife fits with a three pound dog then you could consider that option but if it does not I would look to a breeder that breeds to standard. I am wondering why she has not sold the sister, do you know. Since she is willing to give you the sister or the June puppy I would make a suggestion to the breeder and say Look I don't want the sister and I can imagine you can understand all the reasons why that would be hard for me to deal with. I also don't think I am ready for the demands of a puppy, but since you would lose the sale money by giving me the puppy instead of to the buyer I would prefer you sell the puppy and give me that money." By doing this it's really a wash for the breeder. You also might find it easier to have someone else do the negotiations for you. I know what it is like when you are emotionally invested and have probably gotten to know the breeder so it much harder to be strong and forceful with her. Also it is sometime easier to do this in writing, this way you can get your point across before she butts in with her point and before you know it you are off the track of what you were going to say. 2. Ask her to sell the sister and give you the money from that sale or 3. Ask her to sell one of the June puppies and give you __________________ Lola my amazing little yorkie-pom Donna Last edited by DBlain; 04-20-2012 at 11:26 AM.

04-20-2012, 11:39 AM	#20
DBlain Donating YT Addict Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Oakland County MI Posts: 6,190	I meant to delete those last two line in my post. The problem with these health guarantees is all they do is offer a new puppy, well most people don't want another dog from a breeder that seels you one that does not have good health. It's not like a car where if a part breaks while it is under warranty you get an exact duplicate. This is a living creature, no two animals are a like you should not have to have one forced down your throat you should be able to pick a puppy that is right for you. I doubt most breeder contracts would hold up in a court of law anyway. If you want any help with writing letters or negotiations I will help if I can, I normally am pretty good at convicing someone to see it my way. __________________ Lola my amazing little yorkie-pom Donna Last edited by DBlain; 04-20-2012 at 11:40 AM.

04-20-2012, 11:44 AM	#22
gemy YT 2000 Club Donating Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Huntsville,Ont,Canaada Posts: 12,340 Blog Entries: 2	Spruitt I am just reading this thread. First of all I'm so very sorry you lost your pup. For me the decision not to get another dog from this breeder would be a whole lot of emotions. I just could not do it, for a whole lot of reasons But I hope in future you would not enter into a contract with any breeder, that only offered a replacement puppy. That is not a good for the buyer contract at all. __________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018

04-20-2012, 11:45 AM	#23
Nancy1999 I ♥ Joey & Ralphie! Donating Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 25,396 Blog Entries: 2	I hope you do a review on this breeder. __________________ NancyJoey Proud members of the CrAzYcLuB and YAP! ** Just Say No to Puppymills – Join YAP! Yorkshire Terrier Club of America – Breeder Referrals

04-20-2012, 12:06 PM	#27
Joyce Adams Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,995	I'm sorry that you have lost your baby and I have no idea what I would do in the same situation. I'm sure you are still grieving and wanting a puppy to raise and love. I just pray to give you strength to do what is best for you, you only have to make yourself happy. Take care...(((HUGS))) __________________ Have a great day... Mommy to Yoshi and Miss Priss

04-20-2012, 11:23 AM	#16
spruitt7 Donating YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chicago Posts: 944	My gut is telling me not to do it, so Im going to go with that. I did email her and ask about a refund or a partial refund. I explained to her that Macie was too small for my liking and her sister is just as small. Im waiting for a reply, but Im not holding my breath.

04-20-2012, 11:42 AM	#21
tinalove YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Orangeburg SC Posts: 567	I am sorry for your lost. I can understand your wanting another furbaby. Just think about it and make the best decision that you can. We all have different opinions but you ultimately have to live with your decision. Just know we are here for you whatever you decide. I have a feeling you already know in your heart what you want to do.

04-20-2012, 11:47 AM	#24
Deadbug Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Utah Posts: 452	I have a tiny dog. You don't want one. You should never want one if you do any level of research. It was a fluke that mine came out this tiny because her parents were normal size. She charted out to be around 5lbs but stopped growing at 2.5. My breeder wasn't going to adopt her out to anyone because she was concerned about her health. She specifically adopted her to me because she knew I'd not only love her dearly, but be able to manage the financial aspect of anything that would come up. She had turned quite a few people down to adopt her because she doesn't breed for tinies. I was well informed of the risks before I agreed to take her. Of course, it helps that my breeder and I are friends. She also knew me well enough to know there's no way I'd ever consider breeding her. In fact, I don't even think I have her AKC papers anymore. I never sent them in anyway. So far, she's been fairly healthy with the exception of a few upset tummies that lead us to the vet for supportive care. But I consider myself lucky. I also don't skimp on checkups and tests to keep checking. Things could easily pop up later and if they do, I'm somewhat prepared for that. Emotionally, I don't think I could ever prepare for it. However, I can also take comfort in knowing I've given her the best life a dog could possibly have.

04-20-2012, 11:56 AM	#26
msyorktown ♥Love My 3 Furrbutts♥ Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Whitby, Ontario, Canada Posts: 3,912 Blog Entries: 2	I am sooo sorry for your loss. Personally I would not want another dog from this breeder. I got my two from a byb...fortunatly for me they are healthy...I am looking to add another furbaby to my crew..she has told me she has a litter due soon...however thanks to YT i know not to take that chance again, i will look eleswhere. Go with your gut and do what is best for you...your heart will never steer you wrong. Please keep us posted on what you decide.Good luck to you in whatever you decide, just know my heart goes out to you and prayers for you and Macy. Jacqui

04-20-2012, 12:37 PM	#28
nanahas3 ♥Love My Snuggle Bugs♥ Donating Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 4,290	I am so sorry for your loss. Maybe the breeder would let you have your vet check the new baby and assure you if she is healthy. __________________ *CharleneMama to Laddy and Kyra and Always in our hearts Lolita*

04-20-2012, 12:38 PM	#29
maggiefromnj YT Addict Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: nj Posts: 497	I would try to get $ refunded, then you could choose to get another dog later, or not. If you are sure you want one, SOON, then I would opt for the other litter, not the sister. Hopefully the pups in June won't be so tiny. I think the sister would never measure up in your eyes. You'd look at her and think, Macie didn't do that, or Macie did this. You'd be reminded too much of her. Also, she is very small. Please do get SOMETHING in writing before your year is up. Verbal agreements never stand up and you don't want the breeder saying it's too late. Read your contract carefully and make sure it doesn't mention "refund" anywhere. Also, what about reimbursement for vet bills?

04-20-2012, 12:44 PM	#30
spruitt7 Donating YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chicago Posts: 944	This is her first email to me: Stephanie, Just so you know, David is my son, He had purchased Jesse & Cali from me for family Pets, he owns Jesse & Cali. I will tell you they were both born in my home, and from healthy parents and healthy grandparents etc. I know the linage well. The Yorkies are pets first, but are allowed to breed on occasion. I never breed my females every cycle and neither will David. So Cali was skipped about two months ago. So she will not be in heat again for 6 months. Then it takes 63 days for dropping the litter. Then it takes 8 to 12 weeks for them to be ready. My son David has talked with his Vet and showed him all the paper work. Dr Moony is aware of the good linage & history of healthy pups for years. He seems to think that this was caused by something she ate & or a birth defect or both. He also explained a birth defect can happen to the smallest of litter, mostly when they was the first to drop from the litter. He also claims this can happen to anyone that breeds over time, even though they have had healthy pups. It may never occur again. Even though vets suspect Liver shunt because of condition, he said a Liver shunt is not conclusive. It was obvious that Macie had Kidney Stones. All her litter mates are fine. The Vet assured David that a birth defect will happen to any breeder that breeds long enough... He is confident that Jesse & Cali are fine to breed. I am just heart broken that this happened to Macie, our last puppy we sold. Your puppy will be replaced. You will only be responsible for the shipping of puppy as contract states. Option #1 - Ella - Ella is Macie's litter mate - so she is the age of Macie.. She just got fixed on Tuesday - and Dr Moony ran a full blood panel on her, so she has been tested. - Ella weighs 2.5 pounds - Ella & her name is registered, but AKC allows for new owners to change name. I am sure they charge something for the change of name, but I have never changed one myself and this is a recent option that they made available. Option #2 - Wait for David's Jesse & Cali next litter - which is still approx 8 months away before the dropping the litter. - Last litter was 3 girls & 2 boys. Option #3 - Maryann's Mick & Esme - Which is due to drop drop puppies the later part of June. - I do not know a lot about Maryann's Esme - Jesse sired a litter with her that was adorable 3 girls & 2 boys. I only had contact with Becky Howard that purchased David's pick of the litter Little Clio, she had purchased two other yorkies Kyra & Cali (another Cali... seems to be a popular name).. from me in the past. When grown Becky's Clio finally reached 4 pound she is a lover girl from what Becky says, where Cali is more mischievous. Mick & Esme has had a litter together before. I think 1 girl & 3 3oys. This is a list of first available puppies. I may also have another available from Patti, but I still have to check on that status, I am actually waiting to hear from Patti: I have retired from breeding due to age & health issues. However, I have pick of a few litters from other people. You will have a few months left on Macie's contract, that will be forwarded to your choice of an available puppy. I will have a panel run on any puppy available that you choose, like Ella just had. I would like to state, that I am requesting you to feed the Hill's Science Diet Small bites (dry pebbles) for toy breed for the remainder of the contract that is left. Another thing is on new litters upcoming you can not guarantee size etc. - We will not know until the drop if they are male or female. Sometimes litters occasionally drop all boys or all girls. If on the occasion of an all boy litter we would have to wait until the next available litter. Let me know which you would like: I have been trying to get your options to you as soon as possible. Because of our commitment next week where I will not be available. This is her second email when I told her I was scared and wanted a refund: Stephanie, Sorry I do not do refunds. Only replacement of a puppy. That is explain in the contract. I do not replace puppies because they were to small. A person can not guarantee a size of a puppy. Just because something happens to one does not mean, that any others are that way or will be that way. All my puppies are with AKC and can be tracked and verified that they are healthy. Except for Macie. I believe any Vet would tell you the same as Dr Moony told David. So you can not be scared of that, because that would stop you from buying from any breeder, because this could happen to anyone.. Macie is the first offspring to ever be afflicted. The only time after talking with other breeders, that I purchased a puppy back was when a women found out she was dying with cancer and couldn't she was not going to be able to care for him. By standards of other breeders, I did a buy back on him for 1/2 the purchased price. I actually wish I knew when Macie first got sick so our Vets could have been monitoring this from day one. Then I could have had a choice to come and get her before she was put down and do try more to do more help her. So exactly what are wanting me to do?