Debarking a dog?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Ringo1

I will admit that I did use a Citronella collar on my Westie - I think it was much preferable to debarking.

It didn't take but about one time for him to figure the entire thing out. Now, we just put it on him in the early, early morning or late at night. The collar ran out of citronella about a year ago - but, again, he's no dummy.

Wow, that's amazing.

For the person who said that they heard that they were dangerous, I do belive I read something about how they should fit propertly so the spray doesn't go in their eyes.

[Rescuemomma]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Wow, that's amazing.

For the person who said that they heard that they were dangerous, I do belive I read something about how they should fit propertly so the spray doesn't go in their eyes.

I could see that happening now that you mention it if not fitting properly or used properly. I've had a few problem barkers that the vibration collar wasn't enough I've used them for. With a little training soon I didn't need to even have them on or full - just putting it on or showing it to then even was enough to get them to stop, and at that stage getting a treat for not barking further cemented the new behavior. Is it easy? Depends on the dog, and I don't think ANY bark collar, vibration or spray, should be a first resort, rather a last resort when a dog doesn't respond to other training methods first!

[Ringo1]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Wow, that's amazing.

For the person who said that they heard that they were dangerous, I do belive I read something about how they should fit propertly so the spray doesn't go in their eyes.

Honestly, I couldn't figure out why it even worked at all - Ringo has a long snout for a Westie and the spray looked like it would just go right under his chin - I can't see how it would even have gotten to his nose.

But since it still works with no spray - maybe he IS a dummy after all!

Not really. He's just a horrible barker and digger and Westies are so very stubborn. Lucy is a piece of cake compared to Ringo.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Ringo1

Honestly, I couldn't figure out why it even worked at all - Ringo has a long snout for a Westie and the spray looked like it would just go right under his chin - I can't see how it would even have gotten to his nose.

But since it still works with no spray - maybe he IS a dummy after all!

Not really. He's just a horrible barker and digger and Westies are so very stubborn. Lucy is a piece of cake compared to Ringo.

I don't think it has to go in their nose for it to work, I think they just don't like the smell. I'm sure he can still smell the odor even though the spray is gone and that probably serves as a warning.

[littlewhip]

Our neighbor at the end of our road walks his dog ( a bigger husky ) I belevie his is debarked he makes this awful sound each time he paces
our home & my babies are out there playing, i feel so bad for him

[gracielove]

I believe that dogs like the Sheltie and Collie have an inbred need to bark. They are herding animals and also used for protection. It is cruel to use punishment to try to stop an animal from doing what they are supposed to do. I have had both a Collie and a Sheltie. They both loved to bark out in the back yard when they were running and playing with my kids. The Sheltie loved to referee a good game of touch football. The collie barked when someone would come to the door. I would not think of punishing them for doing what comes naturally for them. They were limited as to how long the barking persisted but we expected they would bark sometimes. We had a big yard and didn't live real close to our neighbors so it was fine to have a dog that needed some room to run. I think sometimes people try to make a house pet out of a dog that has a true desire to do it's job. They need to be able to fulfill their inborn instincts. If they are expected to sit around and not get proper exercise, both mental and physical, then there will be problems. People blame it on the dog but the dog is just doing what it is supposed to do.

Probably Yorkies have some of that ratter instinct left in them. They can be bossy and like to talk back sometimes. If people are not prepared to deal with that then they shouldn't have a Yorkie or any terrier for that matter. Gracie likes to bark when she gets playing and is all wound up. I let her have her fun and then she settles down and is quiet the rest of the day. But she also gets a lot of exercise so she is not full of nervous energy that just promotes more barking.

[Rescuemomma]

Originally Posted by gracielove

I believe that dogs like the Sheltie and Collie have an inbred need to bark. They are herding animals and also used for protection. It is cruel to use punishment to try to stop an animal from doing what they are supposed to do. I have had both a Collie and a Sheltie. They both loved to bark out in the back yard when they were running and playing with my kids. The Sheltie loved to referee a good game of touch football. The collie barked when someone would come to the door. I would not think of punishing them for doing what comes naturally for them. They were limited as to how long the barking persisted but we expected they would bark sometimes. We had a big yard and didn't live real close to our neighbors so it was fine to have a dog that needed some room to run. I think sometimes people try to make a house pet out of a dog that has a true desire to do it's job. They need to be able to fulfill their inborn instincts. If they are expected to sit around and not get proper exercise, both mental and physical, then there will be problems. People blame it on the dog but the dog is just doing what it is supposed to do.

I absolutely agree! But some do need to learn when it's not appropriate - I've had a few rescues that would bark non stop until I started teaching them when they could and couldn't. I also don't think ANYONE should own a collie or Sheltie that doesn't intend to do SOMETHING with it - obedience, therapy work, agility, doesn't really matter what - but they realt need a job and to be kept busy! They're working dogs! And if you don't give them something they WILL have behavioral problems!

[BLowry]

My former sister in law used to breed and show shelties....She had her 4 dogs debarked....this has to be over 35 yrs ago...I'm sure it wasn't but, it sounded so painful for the dogs...they almost sound hoarse...IMO...I feel this should NOT be allowed....and if it's done there should be a fine...We have 3 yorkies...and yes...they all bark....we are working with them to stop barking for no reason...(not an easy task) but, would I debark them???? NEVER!

[jencar98]

A situation I read about here on yt changed my mind about never debarking. I still believe it should be a procedure of last resort, not a surgery preformed to allow a breeder to cage more dogs.

An elderly lady had to go into a nursing home and owned a poodle, the poodle was 14 years old. They had been together since the poodle was a puppy, the only life the poodle had ever known. No other family member could keep her poodle, besides it would have devastated the woman to give up her companion. The facility would allow the poodle but only if the poodle didn't bark. The poodle's barking at this age was an deeply ingrained habit and despite all training methods couldn't be stopped. The poodle was debarked and lived peacefully at the nursing home with it's owner.

In this case the greater crime would have been to deprive the owner and poodle from being together during the last years of their lives.

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by Rescuemomma

I absolutely agree! But some do need to learn when it's not appropriate - I've had a few rescues that would bark non stop until I started teaching them when they could and couldn't. I also don't think ANYONE should own a collie or Sheltie that doesn't intend to do SOMETHING with it - obedience, therapy work, agility, doesn't really matter what - but they realt need a job and to be kept busy! They're working dogs! And if you don't rbehavioral problems!

Yes, we always trained our dogs from the time they were young so if issues arose, like excessive barking, it was dealt with right away before it became an obsession. If people would only start out their young ones with basic commands like sit, stay, down, and "NO!" many of the other problems people have with dogs would be averted. It takes a lot of diligence the first year but it pays off. Sadly for the Yorkie and other small dogs, people tend to think of them as an accessory or a cute little thing that will grow up to know all the rules with no effort on the human's part.

[Rescuemomma]

Originally Posted by gracielove

Yes, we always trained our dogs from the time they were young so if issues arose, like excessive barking, it was dealt with right away before it became an obsession. If people would only start out their young ones with basic commands like sit, stay, down, and "NO!" many of the other problems people have with dogs would be averted. It takes a lot of diligence the first year but it pays off. Sadly for the Yorkie and other small dogs, people tend to think of them as an accessory or a cute little thing that will grow up to know all the rules with no effort on the human's part.

Exactly the problem! And big dogs people seem to be be shocked that they bark all the time when they leave them outside in the back yard 90% of the time *sigh*. Every "untrainable" rescue I've taken in, I've been able go train. Some take different methods - I had one collie that everyone thought was impossible, how did I get through? He LOVED tipping buckets LOL. SO I got a couple dozen set up in the yard and kept settjng them back up as he tipped them. After a few hours he was exhausted and I started working with him in that mindset and low and behold - the "untrainable" collie earned titles in multiple sports, and was one of the smartest and easiest dogs I've ever worked with once I found a way to really wear him out and get him into a frame of mind he COULD be worked with. You will never succeed if you only work with them in a hyper alert mindset. You have to find ways to get them into a frame of mind that can be rewarded. Eliminating a bad behavior almost never works without giving them an appropriate behavior to put in it's place!

[concretegurl]

Debarking is also common among show breeders.

[Rescuemomma]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

Debarking is also common among show breeders.

Sad but true, and I have a huge problem with it. They debark because they don't want to deal with the noise of barking dogs when traveling instead of finding ways to socialize, exercise, and give them outlets. Just because someone shows their dogs doesn't mean they have the dog's best interest at heart. In fact all to often I see show people who are way over the number of dogs they can properly socialize and exercise the way they need, the dogs lack any enrichment outside the showring, and then they wonder why they go crazy at shows! Debarking only makes them easier for the human to deal with, it does nothing to address the root of the problem as to WHY they're barking! Boredome, excitement, over stimulation - even if the reason isn't clear to us, there is ALWAYS a reason when dogs bark!

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Rescuemomma

Sad but true, and I have a huge problem with it.

I agree.

I try not to be overly judgmental and understand the standpoint of show breeders-they are fully focused on the betterment of the breed by conformity-to see what I perceive as an overall change in focus to health verses appearance is more than overwhelmingly positive for me.

Although to a certain point I understand things like ear cropping, tail docking, debarking, dew claw removal, it also makes me wonder about how far will we go?

I asked awhile ago about what people though of dog's having their claws removed-many people are doing this for both medical reasons but also for trivial reasons-nails will ruin wood floors, the dog jumps so we just removed heir claw s to prevent scratches.

I wasn't sure what I thought about this but it had me reevaluating how we medically alter dogs in many ways now.

I chose not to have my mini schnauzers ears cropped by her breeder, even though she was being evaluated for show potential and if she turned out worthy they would have considered showing her only if her ears were cropped per the show requirements.
actually-I LOVE floppy ears-but having to constantly pluck hairs and dry her ears over and over requires a lot of effort, Scoobers gets constant ear infects and at 5 the vet and I are considering a later medically needed cropping. It's sad to have to evaluate this.

Not to say I'm advocating for ear cropping, when it is needed for breed issues I understand first hand why now, or tail docking-which I for one truly see the benefit in, I also truly beleive in dew claw removal, but when it is too much and more so for our convince verses medical need?

How far is too far?

[gracielove]

Originally Posted by Rescuemomma

Exactly the problem! And big dogs people seem to be be shocked that they bark all the time when they leave them outside in the back yard 90% of the time *sigh*. Every "untrainable" rescue I've taken in, I've been able go train. Some take different methods - I had one collie that everyone thought was impossible, how did I get through? He LOVED tipping buckets LOL. SO I got a couple dozen set up in the yard and kept settjng them back up as he tipped them. After a few hours he was exhausted and I started working with him in that mindset and low and behold - the "untrainable" collie earned titles in multiple sports, and was one of the smartest and easiest dogs I've ever worked with once I found a way to really wear him out and get him into a frame of mind he COULD be worked with. You will never succeed if you only work with them in a hyper alert mindset. You have to find ways to get them into a frame of mind that can be rewarded. Eliminating a bad behavior almost never works without giving them an appropriate behavior to put in it's place!

I have never shown a dog but have helped out family members that did. I also used to show and breed Himalayan cats. Having seen both industries I can say that many of the problems are the same. Breeding towards popular trendy looks that cause long term health issues in the animals is one of them along with collecting too many dogs/cats to be able to care for properly being another. There are bad eggs in every area of life I guess but I do kind of cringe when people (including myself) advise people to buy from a show/breeder. While there are many reputable show/breeders there are just as many who show/breed that have less than high standards. There are just so many things that need to be checked out that most people have no idea about. I never knew anyone who debarked their dogs but I can see how many would do it. When an animal falls that low on your list of priorities it is time to get out of the business. I left the cat show area when they decided to breed Persian and Himalayans with no noses. Very sad.