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06-19-2014, 09:21 AM | #256 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
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Welcome Guest! | |
06-19-2014, 09:40 AM | #257 | |
♥ Maximo and Teddy Donating Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 25,041
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Brit, re-reading your post, it does say Linda's views are shaped by her work in rescue. By suggesting she go hang around sporting dogs, you are assuming she doesn't have knowledge of that world. Linda posted about her view that these health problems are the result of bad breeding/breeders, and not spaying/neutering. That was her emphasis. Edit: not advocating for spay/neuter. So this isn't a breeder vs rescue motive thing.
__________________ Kristin, Max and Teddy Last edited by Maximo; 06-19-2014 at 09:44 AM. | |
06-19-2014, 09:43 AM | #258 |
Yorkie mom of 4 Donating YT Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: LaPlata, Md
Posts: 23,247
| I know that 4 years ago when Callie went to the orthopedic surgeon and he said her ACL was tearing and the cause was her LP and that he never asked what age she was spayed and he prides himself on keeping up with the research. When we went back this time and were trying to figure out the best time to do the surgery and again he said the LP could cause the ACL to tear. Never once did he suggest the age she was spayed had anything to do with the ACL and tearing. I am so much more likely to trust my specialist then parts of a study we don't know the info on the dogs from. I feel if there was research that was important my specialist would have read it and told us early spaying was the reason. Callie came from a puppy mill there is no doubt in my mind her poor genetics are what caused her to have LP and the LP led to the tearing of the ACL not because she was spayed before a year.
__________________ Taylor My babies Joey, Penny ,Ollie & Dixie Callie Mae, you will forever be in my heart! |
06-19-2014, 10:01 AM | #259 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
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06-19-2014, 10:02 AM | #260 | |
Action Jackson ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Maryland
Posts: 17,814
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Lol this makes sense... And clearly we, or maybe I, just had a misunderstanding. My main point stands there. I honestly didn't put a ton of thought into this and didn't have a desire to sit and nit pick all the posts. I'm on vacation and posting from my phone in an RV. So I'm out. I don't care either way what people do with their dogs as long as they aren't abusive and live in a good home. The end.
__________________ ~ Brit & Lights! Camera! Jackson! CGC ETD TKP ~ Follow Jackson on Instagram: https://instagram.com/jacksontheterrier | |
06-19-2014, 10:09 AM | #261 | |
Yorkie mom of 4 Donating YT Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: LaPlata, Md
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__________________ Taylor My babies Joey, Penny ,Ollie & Dixie Callie Mae, you will forever be in my heart! | |
06-19-2014, 10:10 AM | #262 | |
Yorkie mom of 4 Donating YT Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: LaPlata, Md
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__________________ Taylor My babies Joey, Penny ,Ollie & Dixie Callie Mae, you will forever be in my heart! | |
06-19-2014, 10:19 AM | #263 | |
YT 2000 Club Donating Member | Quote:
Here is the link directly to the Viszlas study. http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Hea...izslaStudy.pdf On the subject of mammary tumours here is one extract. If you click the link the full 12 page or so report is available to any reader. The association between gonadectomy and various neoplasms in dogs has been examined in several studies.15–20 Mammary gland cancer is an important condition in female dogs, with approximately 20% to 50% of the tumors being histologically malignant.33,34 It is commonly believed that gonadectomized female dogs have a reduced risk of mammary gland cancer and that the earlier a dog is gonadectomized, the lower the risk.28,29,34,35 However, authors of a recent systematic review36 of all reports in peer-reviewed journals on the associations among neutering, age at neutering, and mammary gland tumors concluded that the evidence that neutering reduces the risk of mammary gland neoplasia is weak and not a sound basis for firm recommendations on neutering because of limited evidence and bias in published results. I would try to copy and paste this report but right now my p.c. is telling me my disc is full The above finding on Viszlas and no apparent association on age of spaying and relationship to mammary cancer is surprising to me. Most previous research I have read is for slight iincrease in incidence rate associated with spaying before first heat, spaying after first but prior second heat, but a minimal increate in risk/incident rate. How ever a sharp increase in unbred older intact females. This study I need to look at more to see about pyrometra, which is imo, much more of a concern than mammary cancer is. Of course these two conditions affect predominately female dogs, or solely female dogs. And most studies indicate that pyrometra is rare in young females. And as the study authors have said much more research is needed to be done not just for Viszlas but for all breeds. It could very well be that there is a breed disposition to mammary cancer, as there seems to be for sarcomas, hemangiosarcomas, Von Willenbrands disease (which thankfully now there is a genetic test for). If you look at the report on cancers male/females you do not see mammary cancer delineated, and was included in the other types of cancer Mammary cancer was lumped in with all other cancers. Other cancers including mammary and most specifically by breed type are only suspected, some breeds with strong suspicion that there is not only a breed disposition to, but an association with timing of s/n. So the first question to be answered by science is there a breed disposition to cancer? If so, what kinds and by what breed? Then what causes this breed disposition? Is it truly genetic? Some combo of genetics, nutrition, environment etc. Are all breeds or only certain breeds made more or less susceptible by judicious timing of a full s/n? Would it be better to use alternative methods of s/n to keep the sex hormones? For males, for females, for which breed types? And having asked all the above questions, which will be decades in the answering, all we as breeders can go by is the best information at the time we need to make the decisions and or recommendations to our puppy owners. And all you can do as pet owners is to educate yourself as well for the breed (s) you own. Some breeds are further ahead in answering these questions then others. Some answers perhaps mammary tumour and pyrometra is consistent across all or most breed types or sizes. I await reading and posting new research and findings on this topic.
__________________ Razzle and Dara. Our clan. RIP Karma Dec 24th 2004-July 14 2013 RIP Zoey Jun9 th 2008-May 12 2012. RIP Magic,Mar 26 2006July 1st 2018 | |
06-19-2014, 10:20 AM | #264 |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
| That's where the problem lies. There are not "big issues" with the studies. The studies were conducted to the best of the researchers' abilities, and they were peer reviewed and published in major journals. The researchers were very careful to state that they had not proven cause and effect. The big issues come from people drawing conclusions that are beyond the scope of the studies. More research is needed, and the authors state that. |
06-19-2014, 10:28 AM | #265 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
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"Mammary neoplasia For female dogs and cats, the greatest benefits are decreased risk of development of mammary neoplasia when aged and lack of development of pyometra. Incidence of mammary neoplasia in cats is 2.5% and is virtually always malignant adenocarci- noma.22–24 Mammary neoplasia is 7 times more likely to occur in aged queens than in spayed female cats, with the greatest decrease in incidence associated with spaying before the first estrus.24 Incidence of mammary neoplasia in dogs is 3.4%, with about 50% being benign fibroadenomas and 50% malignant adenocarcinomas.22,25–32 Incidence is greatly decreased by spaying, especially by spaying before the first heat.1,33,34 A recent attempt to determine the significance of these data by systematic review of the veterinary literature was unable to identify strong evidence suggesting that spaying decreases the risk of mammary cancer; however, this systematic review is based on work in human medicine and requires a massive body of literature, which does not exist in veterinary medicine.35" | |
06-19-2014, 10:40 AM | #266 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
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"A recent attempt to determine the significance of these data by systematic review of the veterinary literature was unable to identify strong evidence suggesting that spaying decreases the risk of mammary cancer; however, this systematic review is based on work in human medicine and requires a massive body of literature, which does not exist in veterinary medicine.35" So there is a difference of opinion on the validity of that systematic review... | |
06-19-2014, 10:43 AM | #267 | |
Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: S. W. Suburbs of Chicago, IL
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He's got his own agenda along with Dr. Becker. The entire Mercola website is a is noting but a profit making mega machine.
__________________ “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain | |
06-19-2014, 10:50 AM | #268 | |
Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: S. W. Suburbs of Chicago, IL
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__________________ “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain | |
06-19-2014, 10:53 AM | #269 |
Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: S. W. Suburbs of Chicago, IL
Posts: 12,235
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__________________ “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain |
06-19-2014, 10:55 AM | #270 | |
Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: S. W. Suburbs of Chicago, IL
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__________________ “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” Mark Twain | |
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