Puppy Question

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Why 18 weeks?

Develpmental stage closes at eighteen weeks. anything after that is ok but not as good as getting it done but 18 weeks. Some have moved that back to 13 weeks but I go by what Fuller and Scott found in their massive study.

Google developmental stages and fuller and scott and the list shuld pop up it was here at one time.

JL

[DvlshAngel985]

Thanks! I hope I wasn't putting you on the spot. I asked the same question when people said a pup shouldn't be separated from mom until 12 weeks. I just want to know why there are certain, "magic" numbers.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Thanks! I hope I wasn't putting you on the spot. I asked the same question when people said a pup shouldn't be separated from mom until 12 weeks. I just want to know why there are certain, "magic" numbers.

went to find the list
here are the magic numbers and these are in stone.

Developmental Stages
You really want to understand you need to grab fuller and scotts book on the massive study they did.

I for one do not agree with 12 weeks I better at ten weeks and I say that knowing my skill set but I got my new girl at 13 weeks but my breeder covered a ton of soical skills ground for me.. far to many breeders do not soicalize well enough yet... many are starting too do a much better job of it as we all learn more about soical skills.


JL

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

went to find the list
here are the magic numbers and these are in stone.

Developmental Stages
You really want to understand you need to grab fuller and scotts book on the massive study they did.

I for one do not agree with 12 weeks I better at ten weeks and I say that knowing my skill set but I got my new girl at 13 weeks but my breeder covered a ton of soical skills ground for me.. far to many breeders do not soicalize well enough yet... many are starting too do a much better job of it as we all learn more about soical skills.


JL

Good breeders should be socializing, potty training, and health testing. If they're not, they aren't doing their job. In my opinion anyway.

[chachi]

You should ask your vet for his recommendation for that. My vet said it was okay if they were in my fenced yard but all vets are different on their stance on that. I will tell you that since Ive been on this board I have seen a girls pup get parvo and the only place it had been was her yard so you are taking a risk when you take them out

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Good breeders should be socializing, potty training, and health testing. If they're not, they aren't doing their job. In my opinion anyway.

Ok well house training is something you and I will have to chat on... see taking them out and having them pee outside after a meal and poop is one thing to aid in a breeders ability to cut cleaning time and also socialize them at the same time but with a large litter of ten that stay until 10 weeks it not possible to get them trained totally and there will be set backs when the pup goes home as it a new place and puppies and dogs do not generalize so the pup will need to learn it all over again anyway.

We also have to remeber that this soicalize thing is not just other dogs and other humans which to many still think it is only that. it everything a dog will see, hear, smell or feel in its life time this info is just getting out to breeders and they like us are just getting to know it and learn what to do and get it into their program and understand it not just dogs and people it a ton of other stuff. You got a litter of ten you have to be very creative on thier learning and it not easy for some to understand just yet but it getting there.

I also add temperment testing over the course of the pups stay at the breeders not a one off test as it does not represent the puppy well enough it could be having a bad day.

Health checks on the puppies parents is a must for the pups and the dogs and it should include a temperment test as fear is genetic based in some ways.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chachi

You should ask your vet for his recommendation for that. My vet said it was okay if they were in my fenced yard but all vets are different on their stance on that. I will tell you that since Ive been on this board I have seen a girls pup get parvo and the only place it had been was her yard so you are taking a risk when you take them out

You take a risk not taking it out as well of having a dog that is not able to soically function in the world. Either or both can kill the dog pravo or bad soical skills. the thing is what can you as a owner handle... living with a dog that has fear based aggression all its life or parvo..
If ever a vets tells me not to take my dog out They would get fired and scolded on the spot.

JL

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Ok well house training is something you and I will have to chat on... see taking them out and having them pee outside after a meal and poop is one thing to aid in a breeders ability to cut cleaning time and also socialize them at the same time but with a large litter of ten that stay until 10 weeks it not possible to get them trained totally and there will be set backs when the pup goes home as it a new place and puppies and dogs do not generalize so the pup will need to learn it all over again anyway.

We also have to remeber that this soicalize thing is not just other dogs and other humans which to many still think it is only that. it everything a dog will see, hear, smell or feel in its life time this info is just getting out to breeders and they like us are just getting to know it and learn what to do and get it into their program and understand it not just dogs and people it a ton of other stuff. You got a litter of ten you have to be very creative on thier learning and it not easy for some to understand just yet but it getting there.

I also add temperment testing over the course of the pups stay at the breeders not a one off test as it does not represent the puppy well enough it could be having a bad day.

Health checks on the puppies parents is a must for the pups and the dogs and it should include a temperment test as fear is genetic based in some ways.

JL

But we're talking yorkies here. A litter of 10 is probably not normal. Plus, a breeder should know that whatever comes their way, it is all on them. They're the ones that wanted to breed, not the dam. If she dies, and there are still puppies to raise, teach, and potty train, that's the breeder's responsibility. It's such a cop out when "breeders" sell puppies young when a tragedy happens. In my eyes, they're passing on their burden onto someone else. it may be different with larger breeds I don't know. I trust a seasoned, yorkie breeder exhibitor on these issues, vs looking at general all breed info.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

But we're talking yorkies here. A litter of 10 is probably not normal. Plus, a breeder should know that whatever comes their way, it is all on them. They're the ones that wanted to breed, not the dam. If she dies, and there are still puppies to raise, teach, and potty train, that's the breeder's responsibility. It's such a cop out when "breeders" sell puppies young when a tragedy happens. In my eyes, they're passing on their burden onto someone else. it may be different with larger breeds I don't know. I trust a seasoned, yorkie breeder exhibitor on these issues, vs looking at general all breed info.

Ok you need to breathe just a little.. I agree sending pups home before they are 10 weeks is a bad thing they got to have mummy time and sibling time to learn bite inhabition. But if you send them home after that you as an owner have way to little time to cover thier siocal skills needed.

You have to understand I live with a bad little one and her lifes been heck in a hand basket I have spent 9 years learning everything possible to make sure she does not ever happen again.
Thaks so much for the put down. You have remeinded me yet again that trying to share and learn in this enviroment is a waste of my breath.

JL

[Teresa Ford]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Here is my stand on this.... pups in there own yard if clean and safe can be out as soon as they can walk and should be. Litter of ten BRTS out and about at soon as they could follow me. Before first shots. People in to visit as soon as they had first shots and just before with care.

Now have had several pups including the new tiny one in class on two sets of shots.
I have had pups out and about in public in a front pack as soon as they have one set of shots.

You need to have your pup see and be seen and touch smell and feel 100 people, places, dogs, other animals and sounds and smells by 18 weeks.

The risk of getting a puppy hood illness is way less then a dog locked up for its full set of shots being undersoicalized and live a really rough life time of fear cause of it. We in this household because of someone else not soicalizing well enough a pup live with massive fear issuses and anxiety now for 9 years in one very speical little yorkie girl.

We plan never to do that again as we have had to work through fear issuse with a big Black russain terrier boy that the breeder never exposed to childern and enough strange sounds that it almost got him put down.

Soical skills can be done from your arms but get them out and get the learning.

JL

During the 70s I was taught by 3 professional trainers in 3 disciplines. Obedience, Field, and Service ( today called Service/ Therapy). All 3 believed that it was critical to expose puppies to all kinds of people,places and things. Starting at 6 weeks thru 12weeks. And that professional training classes were most effective, if taught from week 8 thru week 16. Of course today we don't even have puppy classes until after this time is passed and immunization is compleat. Much of what was taught then was from the books by David Weston Dog Training: The Gentle Modern Method and his 2nd book Dog Problems The Gentle Modern Cure.
This is another reason we should be very selective in who the breeder is. Insight to this golden period of learning should be used to lay the foundation of a happy, secure, and balanced dog. Good breeders spend time socializing and handling puppies. IMO breeders should read: Super Dogs are Made Not Born by Joyce O'Kelly This make sense because, almost all dogs that are given away or killed is because of behavior problems. So it is vital for them to have the best start in life possible.

[YorkieMother]

Developmental Stages


The link I posted on developmental stages was done by Fuller and Scott
over 20 years of a study and with four differnt breeds.
This info is solid and across the breed. So this is yorkies to chis to airdales to BRTs to pugs and hounds and herd dogs. This is what it is no one can change this. We may want to try and the research going on now past the year mark says we may have another soical window but that is not for certain yet and then we are undoing all the bad stuff that did or did not happen and that takes more work.

JL

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Ok you need to breathe just a little.. I agree sending pups home before they are 10 weeks is a bad thing they got to have mummy time and sibling time to learn bite inhabition. But if you send them home after that you as an owner have way to little time to cover thier siocal skills needed.

You have to understand I live with a bad little one and her lifes been heck in a hand basket I have spent 9 years learning everything possible to make sure she does not ever happen again.
Thaks so much for the put down. You have remeinded me yet again that trying to share and learn in this enviroment is a waste of my breath.

JL

So do I. He's a complete mess sometimes, and it's not like he isn't exposed to new things, or I shelter him either. He was 12 months old when I got him. At first i couldnt walk him, take him on outings, or even play with him because he didnt know what any of that was. In fact, my dad gets upset with me because I insist on taking him out of the house. I still try and he's gotten better. He walks beautifully for me, he enjoys toys now, and is a happy go lucky guy with his little dog friend's. I wish Mardelin was online. She definitely knows more about this and how it relates to yorkies.

[DvlshAngel985]

Just now finished reading your post yorkie mother. When did I put you down? I thought we were having a wonderful discussion. I see your points and they're as valid as mine. Like another poster said, everyone will raise their dogs and children as they see fit. I'd my thoughts, ideas, or oipinions offended you in any way, it was not my intention. What I'm doing with mine is based on experience, and what I want in my next pup from a show breeder is based on posts by knowledgeable yorkie breeders and books on the breed. Again, I meant no offense.

I see your studies, and will read them to come up with my own conclusions.

[Ellie May]

How would an owner outdoor train a dog if they didn't let them go outside young? Not everybody thinks pottying on pads in the house is acceptable.

IMO sometimes there is too much of a line drawn between large and small breeds. Both get sick, both get parvo and distemper, both can die from it. So if it's not ok for small breeds to go out young, why is it ok for large breeds (assuming they stopped weaning at the same time and have had the same vaccines - even if the number of vaccines is 0)? Very few people would let a large breed dog go on pads while its shots were being given.

Ry came to me with an unknown vaccine history. We were careful, but we weren't going to stop him from going outside either. He was expected to go potty outside, he was allowed around a dog that I knew the vaccine history of, etc.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Just now finished reading your post yorkie mother. When did I put you down? I thought we were having a wonderful discussion. I see your points and they're as valid as mine. Like another poster said, everyone will raise their dogs and children as they see fit. I'd my thoughts, ideas, or oipinions offended you in any way, it was not my intention. What I'm doing with mine is based on experience, and what I want in my next pup from a show breeder is based on posts by knowledgeable yorkie breeders and books on the breed. Again, I meant no offense.

I see your studies, and will read them to come up with my own conclusions.

"I trust a seasoned, yorkie breeder exhibitor on these issues, vs looking at general all breed info. "


put down and you can come up with your own conclucions all you want but that study I posted is took 20 years to do and many have tried to pull it apart and failed to do so. They keep coming back and saying it is right.

have a wonderful day.

JL